Prayer Man

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

15 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

YOU HAVE NOT, AND YOU CANNOT, ARTICULATE A RATIONAL REASON OSWALD WOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO BE IN THE LUNCH ROOM OR ON TSBD STEPS DURING THE ASSASSINATION.

12 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I can’t speak for Greg, but he did address this issue.

 

I explained it too. I think I was the first to explain it.

Maybe Lance has me on ignore.

 

[Jake Hammond]

On 1/7/2023 at 12:13 AM, Lance Payette said:

For the second time, Greg has started a thread at the ROKC forum focused on doddering old me. Since I'm barely hanging on here and don’t want to join another JFK forum, I’m responding indirectly to Greg here for the second time.

Greg was kind enough to say that he agrees with much of what I post here about the sheer nuttiness of much conspiracy theorizing. Likewise, I regard Greg as one of the serious researchers whose books and posts I've enjoyed.

Someone at ROKC apparently noticed my offhand comment that I was “pretty much 1000% certain” that Prayer Man will go “poof” if and when the original Darnell and Wiegman films are obtained.

Obviously, I’m not 1000% certain, 100% certain, or even certain at all. This was a jocular comment, just making the point that I’m completely willing to re-join the ranks of conspiracy theorists if and when convincing evidence surfaces. Oswald as Prayer Man is at the extreme of unlikeliness, IMHO. But by God, if Prayer Man could be proved to be Oswald I’d do an immediate 180-degree about-face. For that reason, I certainly hope the originals of Darnell and Wiegman can be obtained and will settle the issue once and for all.

I've seen, I think, pretty much everything relating to Prayer Man, including the work of Andrej and others here. It just makes no sense to me from the standpoint of logic. This was the basis of my "1000% certain" comment. If Prayer Man proves to be Oswald, I'll be 1000% gobsmacked and happy to admit it.

If Oswald was the designated patsy, what possible sense would it make for him to be standing on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination? Sandy’s explanation – this was such an in-your-face conspiracy that the sixth-floor patsy was standing on the steps of the TSBD as a “message” about the conspirators’ “power” (i.e., they didn't even care if the patsy was exposed) – strikes me as beyond-the-pale goofy. Is there an even semi-plausible explanation?

In Oswald’s post-assassination interactions with reporters, Robert, Marina or H. Louis Nichols (the Dallas attorney), why didn't he scream “For God’s sake, I was standing on the steps of the TSBD with Bill Shelley! Other people must’ve seen me! There must be photos! This is ridiculous!” Does the fact he didn’t do this not seem a bit odd? You have an ironclad alibi that may well be corroborated by multiple witnesses or documented on film, but you don’t even mention it?

Instead, we merely have Oswald saying (according to Fritz’s notes and Bookhout’s report) that he was “out with Bill Shelley in front.” It seems from the context (especially Bookhout's report) that Oswald was talking about the time after the assassination. Alas for Oswald, Shelley didn’t corroborate his statement. None of the other occupants of the TSBD steps said, “Yes, I saw Lee standing there.”

Oswald told several preposterous lies during his interrogation, so why would we suppose "out with Bill Shelley in front" was anything different? Are we to suppose Fritz was so deeply involved in the conspiracy that he wouldn’t have immediately attempted to verify Oswald’s statement with potential witnesses or photos? If he was deeply involved, why would he and Bookhout have documented Oswald’s possible alibi in the first place?

It's pure happenstance that the Darnell and Wiegman films aren’t crystal clear or that 20 other bystanders didn’t happen to catch clear images of Prayer Man in films or photographs. It's pure happenstance the figure is deep in shadow. We’re talking about Prayer Man only because the figure is too dark and blurry to  clearly discern. Again, pure happenstance. This seems to me typical of so much conspiracy “evidence” – hey, it might be Oswald and you can’t prove it isn’t! Quite the opposite of actual affirmative evidence. Never mind that conspiracy enthusiasts spent years focusing on the “Oswald” who was obviously Billy Lovelady. Never mind that Prayer Man looks to me and others considerably more like a woman than a man.

In short, my “1000% certain” comment was just an exaggerated way of saying “Oswald as Prayer Man simply makes no sense to me and is contrary to the all the logic I can bring to bear on the subject."

I’m sympathetic to Prayer Man enthusiasts because it will indeed be a flat-out Lone Nut-killer if it is Oswald. For this reason, the time spent on the issue isn’t silly even if I think the likelihood is almost nil. Unlike most conspiracy "evidence," it's one item that at least has the potential for a definitive answer one way or the other.

Because of all I’ve set forth above, showing that it “could be” Oswald goes nowhere. You need to show that, contrary to all logic, it is Oswald. If and when that is accomplished, I will again be a gung-ho conspiracy enthusiast. If it is Oswald, all the reasons I’m now pretty sure it isn’t won’t matter.

It seems to me that, as is typical of so much conspiracy theorizing, the Prayer Man argument is built around the shaky foundation of (1) a dark and blurry image that theoretically could be Oswald or any one of a thousand other people and (2) blind acceptance of “out with Bill Shelley in front” in Fritz’s notes, as though Oswald (a) was definitely talking about the time of the assassination and (b) hadn’t told umpteen other lies during the interrogation. The willingness to accept this foundation, it seems to me, has to be a strong desire for Oswald to be innocent. The logical issues that seem to me to reduce the likelihood to near zero seem to get little attention. Even if I were a Prayer Man devotee, I’d be thinking hard about what possible scenario would have the patsy whose rifle was planted on the sixth floor standing on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. I would've made sure the patsy was not only on the sixth floor but plainly visible there.
 

I'm trying to find the old topic ' prayer woman' ( I think) , where I and a couple of others argued, quite robustly, that the Payer man is in fact a petite amateur photographer filmed later in a local news clip. It was a perfect match. Obviously there was a push back against this but I was interested if that woman had been identified as I've not been on the forum for a while.... Can anyone help please ?

[Denis Morissette]

6 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

I'm trying to find the old topic ' prayer woman' ( I think) , where I and a couple of others argued, quite robustly, that the Payer man is in fact a petite amateur photographer filmed later in a local news clip. It was a perfect match. Obviously there was a push back against this but I was interested if that woman had been identified as I've not been on the forum for a while.... Can anyone help please ?

I believe Linda Z. identified that woman correctly. I contacted that person. She did not say she is or is not the person in Dealey Plaza. She gave me her address. I phoned her once, and it was her husband answering. He was not happy at all! He had obviously been contacted before about this. 

 

https://ibb.co/12nnyBS

 

https://ibb.co/fvQx9QQ

 

https://ibb.co/KKCTJCP

[Jake Hammond]

7 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

I believe Linda Z. identified that woman correctly. I contacted that person. She did not say she is or is not the person in Dealey Plaza. She gave me her address. I phoned her once, and it was her husband answering. He was not happy at all! He had obviously been contacted before about this. 

 

https://ibb.co/12nnyBS

 

https://ibb.co/fvQx9QQ

 

https://ibb.co/KKCTJCP

Wow, thank you. Things really did move on, well done, fantastic. I'm sure its her.

 Leica M3, Dr. of engineering, funded by naval intelligence, lived near a Naval base..... 

 > checks out.

Was DR. Elinor Sandborne another Stuart Reed ?

Edited January 26, 2023 by Jake Hammond

[Denis Morissette]

You might have noticed that she Sandborne appears in the same school photo as KLRD-TV reporter Joe Scott. Scott filmed various shots in Dealey Plaza. I included an image of KLRD showing her. Maybe it is Scott filming after he recognized her? In that footage, she seems to be posing for the cameraman. 

[Jake Hammond]

Very possibly, great analysis again Dennis. I tidied up the Rambler topic I opened too BTW, and added some images back in for clarity. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Jake Hammond

[Denis Morissette]

The KLRD film of this lady whose photos have never been published!