A Question of Credibility: Tippit Witnesses Can't Agree

[Ian Lloyd]

22 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

p.s. Bill it occurs to me an answer to another question that has bothered me: why the gunman would run the longer way around the back of the cruiser (as indicated in two out of two of the witnesses who actually saw the run-around and shooting, that's one hundred percent of the eyewitnesses, both of them), instead of the shorter way around the front of the car, to get to Tippit on the ground and finish him off. 

I had wondered if it was because Tippit had pulled up and stopped behind some other car's rear bumper so close that it was not possible for the gunman to walk around the front. That would be one possible way of accounting for that.

But it is not necessary to suppose that (a bumper-to-bumper stopped Tippit cruiser). The longer run around the rear of the cruiser can be explained on personal safety grounds, if the gunman believes Tippit is only wounded and may have seen Tippit going for his gun. Go around the front, Tippit even though hit and on the ground could be waiting for him, gun drawn, and shoot him. The gunman therefore runs around the rear where he can more easily approach the fallen Tippit from behind where Tippit may not be looking, and only when seeing it is safe to do so does the gunman go closer and fire the final 2-3 finale shots including the coup de grace to the right forehead, Tippit on the ground and now dead for sure.

Either way this was an execution, a professional killing, a hit, an ambush, not a random or impulse killing, and I believe the Oswald identifications of Helen Markham and Tatum (and Callaway and Scoggins and Brewer) were mistaken identifications, though that is a larger and obviously more complicated and difficult discussion but does not affect the point here, which is that Helen Markham and Tatum were not wrong on seeing a running around the rear of the cruiser before final shot(s), as both said, and as counterintuitive as it may have seemed to decades of later researchers to imagine a run around the rear of the cruiser of the gunman.  

I guess I'm no expert, but I would agree that the Tippit murder certainly seems to have the hallmarks of a professional execution, carried out by someone experienced in such killings. I'm not sure LHO was such a person?

I also wonder why, if LHO was supposedly heading out to meet an accomplice/contact in the TT, he seems to have been walking away from it? Wouldn't the shortest route have been straight down Zangs boulevard?

[Gil Jesus]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:14 PM, Bill Brown said:

 

Scoggins saw the killer flee down Patton first on the east side (naturally) and then the killer crossed to the west side of the street.  So what?

 

 

I can't find that in Scoggins' testimony. Citation please ?

[Michael Kalin]

18 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

How do you interpret the Nov 22 FBI interview report of what Helen Markham said she saw, concerning her seeing someone go around the rear of the cruiser before two shots were fired into the head of Tippit, Michael? 

LOL -- ball in my court, eh? Well Greg, I'd like to requite you with a major speculation but my thoughts do not take me in that direction, not yet anyway. I'm having a hard time trying to iron out the details of Odum's presence at DPD HQ. There is scant discussion of this in any of the resources I've checked so far.

An exception appeared at the end of the "Tippit witness 1967 letter to Playboy" thread, comment by Leslie Sharp, in the form of an excerpt from Coup in Dallas, but this does not get down to brass tacks. It does reference an article that tries to do exactly that: "In another rarely heralded essay published in the Fourth Decade in 1997, researcher Tom Wallace Lyons summed up Odum’s early influence over the Tippit investigation, asserting that Odum sewed the confusion that contributed to Markham being labeled as an inconsistent, unreliable witness for decades to come."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48700#relPageId=3

On the second page of the Lyons article a tantalizing piece of information appears about her WC testimony involving Odum, but this came to naught just as things were beginning to look juicy. Neither Odum nor his report appears in the referenced transcript. Here's the critical exchange:

Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this Commission, page 51. This is what he said:
"I spoke with the deponent"-he is talking about an affidavit that you made to the Dallas Police Department-"l spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit."
Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that to Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man.
Mr. BALL. Or anybody else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
3H317

Shows that keeping the DPD sheep separate from the FBI goats is no easy task.

One puny speculation I am willing to make involves the reason both SAs Odum & Barrett were mobilized to investigate Oak Cliff matters concerning Tippit's murder immediately after the president's assassination. The cause was Oswald's jumping off the Marsalis bus, and the ensuing panic over losing track of the patsy. What else to do but send agents into the field?

Edited February 20, 2023 by Michael Kalin
link clarification

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Hi Gil,

I'm hijacking this Thread rather than create a new one, because my questions are all about the Tippit Witneses and this one already existed.

First question. You seem to have a damn good grasp on the Tippit witness situation, what I'm trying to find.are witness accounts not of the shooting. or of the escape, but of any witnesses who "observed Oswald" on his high speed forced narch to the scene of Tippit's shooting?

Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Second question... I understand that tthe shell casings found at the scene were 2 x Winchester and 2 x Remington, and that Benevides found two, and the Davis gals found the other two.

Does history relate what the breakdwon was in terms of who found what? e.g did Benavides find two of the same brand?

 

Many thanks in advance and anticipation!

[Bill Brown]

3 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Hi Gil,

I'm hijacking this Thread rather than create a new one, because my questions are all about the Tippit Witneses and this one already existed.

First question. You seem to have a damn good grasp on the Tippit witness situation, what I'm trying to find.are witness accounts not of the shooting. or of the escape, but of any witnesses who "observed Oswald" on his high speed forced narch to the scene of Tippit's shooting?

Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Second question... I understand that tthe shell casings found at the scene were 2 x Winchester and 2 x Remington, and that Benevides found two, and the Davis gals found the other two.

Does history relate what the breakdwon was in terms of who found what? e.g did Benavides find two of the same brand?

 

Many thanks in advance and anticipation!

 

I'm curious...

 

Do you believe that William Scoggins was lying face down in the street as the fleeing gunman approached the cab moments after shooting Tippit?

 

[Tommy Tomlinson]

45 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

I'm curious...

 

Do you believe that William Scoggins was lying face down in the street as the fleeing gunman approached the cab moments after shooting Tippit?

 

I thought he said he was crouched behind the car? I recall he said something about the shooter looking over his left shoulder as he went past, when Scoggins was on his right, which would have made it hard to see his face, or was that someone else?

I'm curious, does that have any relevance to people seeing Oswald on his way TO the shooting?

Have I missed something?

[Bill Brown]

1 minute ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

I thought he said he was crouched behind the car? I recall he said something about the shooter looking over his left shoulder as he went past, when Scoggins was on his right, which would have made it hard to see his face, or was that someone else?

I'm curious, does that have any relevance to people seeing Oswald on his way TO the shooting?

Have I missed something?

 

Scoggins said he was crouched behind the cab.  Gil Jesus (mistakenly) said Scoggins was lying face down in the street.

 

As for the killer looking back over his shoulder, Benavides said the killer did this, not Scoggins.

 

The relevance is that you stated that Gil Jesus seems to have "a damn good grasp on the Tippit witness situation".  I'm here to tell you that this is not so.

 

[Tommy Tomlinson]

38 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Scoggins said he was crouched behind the cab.  Gil Jesus (mistakenly) said Scoggins was lying face down in the street.

 

As for the killer looking back over his shoulder, Benavides said the killer did this, not Scoggins.

 

The relevance is that you stated that Gil Jesus seems to have "a damn good grasp on the Tippit witness situation".  I'm here to tell you that this is not so.

 

OK, sorry I made a mistake about Scoggins and Benavides... like I say, not what I'm interested in.

I mentioned Gil by name because it was the polite thing to do since his thread didn't nitially cover what I wanted to know. I had a quick read through his breakdwons of the individual tesimonies and interviews and affidavits and whatever he has extrapolated to reach whatever conclusions it is that you so clearly disapporve of, his access to the details was impressive.

By all means if you can give me the list of witnesses who saw Oswald performing his feat of athletic prowess through the leafy(?) suburbs of Dallas I'll take it from wherever it comes.

But not the conclusions... I'll try my own first.

[Gil Jesus]

On 8/18/2023 at 5:32 AM, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Hi Gil,

I'm hijacking this Thread rather than create a new one, because my questions are all about the Tippit Witneses and this one already existed.

First question. You seem to have a damn good grasp on the Tippit witness situation, what I'm trying to find.are witness accounts not of the shooting. or of the escape, but of any witnesses who "observed Oswald" on his high speed forced narch to the scene of Tippit's shooting?

Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Second question... I understand that tthe shell casings found at the scene were 2 x Winchester and 2 x Remington, and that Benevides found two, and the Davis gals found the other two.

Does history relate what the breakdwon was in terms of who found what? e.g did Benavides find two of the same brand?

 

Many thanks in advance and anticipation!

Let me answer your second question first.

I am not aware of any records describing who found what type of shell. This is because the witnesses were not required to mark the shells at the time of discovery.

Because of this, when the witnesses were shown all four shells at the same time, they could not identify any of them as the shells they found. 

As for your first question, it seems to me that I read someplace that there WERE witnesses who saw Tippit's killer before the murder walking on 10th Street, but it's been so many years now that I've forgotten their names or if they positively identified Oswald as the man they saw.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[David Josephs]

@Gil Jesus @Tommy Tomlinson

Hope you don't mind my jumping in...

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

I am not aware of any records describing who found what type of shell.

The Dallas Police recovered the following expended cartridges from the Tippit murder scene:
CE 594-.38 Winchester/Western
CE 594-.38 Winchester/Western
CE 594-.38 Remmington-Peters
CE 594-.38 Remmington-Peters 20

The Commission received the following bullets, recovered from Tippit's body, from the FBI:
CE 602-.38 Win/Western-copper
CE 603-.38 Win/Western-copper
CE604-.38 Remmington-lead
CE 605-.38 Win/Western-copper (20 & 21: FBI SA C. Cunningham's Testimony)

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

witnesses who saw Tippit's killer before the murder walking on 10th Street

The strange thing is nobody sees Oswald walking between Beckley and Patton at all... from my POV the car which honked at 1026 Beckley was the car that took Oswald to the Theater (we are to remember that the car that came by had been sold previously based on its number and should not have had DPD officers inside.)

Jim Marrs interviewed Jack Davis who was in the theater when Oswald arrived and was surprised at the activity of this man for the 20 minutes prior to the arrival of the police and that he'd sit next to Davis when only 20 people were in the 900 seat theater.  Burroughs confirms to Marrs it was about 20 minutes from when he sold Oswald popcorn and when the police arrived.  IOW he went from the Beckly/Zang/Neches area to the Theater in a very short period of time.  

Also to remember is that Tippit was looking for Oswald/someone, frantically.  Was this person just walking up and down 10th?  Was he dropped off by the car many witnesses talk about seeing drive away?  Per MARKHAM he is walking EAST along 10th - one wonders how Tippit knows to turn onto 10th in his search.  Quite a challenging mystery here.

Surprisingly, people like TATUM who was at 10th and Denver looking WEST claimed he sees both the police car and the man walking... he turns left and drives to Patton (below is the view from Denver & 10th) I'm sure the actual distance appears much closer than in these photos...

Mr. Tatum, if you'll repeat your statement slowly, I'll attempt to type it."

Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street) <snip>

The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back.

From what I can find, only MARKHAM would be at the scene early enough to see this person walk by... and obviously this would be the man walking EAST on 10th...

Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.  (DJ: East on 10th)
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

8 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Let me answer your second question first.

I am not aware of any records describing who found what type of shell. This is because the witnesses were not required to mark the shells at the time of discovery.

Because of this, when the witnesses were shown all four shells at the same time, they could not identify any of them as the shells they found. 

As for your first question, it seems to me that I read someplace that there WERE witnesses who saw Tippit's killer before the murder walking on 10th Street, but it's been so many years now that I've forgotten their names or if they positively identified Oswald as the man they saw.

Thanks for that Gil.

To me, that journey is the cornerstone of labeling Oswald the Tippit killer.  If you can show he covered that distance in the time the evidence establishes you get to say "he could have killed Tippit". If you can't show that a) he DID manage to do that or b) he COULD do that, you have to concede it might have not been him.

Both Roberts and Markham have come in for some bruising over the years depending on which side of the fence people are sitting when throwing stones, but both are considered to be pretty reliable in terms of the times. The only reason one could have to doubt them would be to forward an agenda or theory that doesn't fit without them being completely wrong.

The Warren Report did itself no favours by asserting the time of the shooting as being at 1:16PM. Helen Markham would have long been at her bus stop by that time, following her daily routine of setting off slightly after 1PM to meet a bus that arrrived at 1:12PM, though she said it was some time around 1:15... Regardless of the possibility of the bus' delayed arrival that day, she would have been there by 1:12PM and nowhere near the scene.

Seeing as how she estimated being about a minute and a half to two minutes away from the bus stop... even if her daily routine had her land at exactly the same time as the bus every day, the shooting was no later than 1:10-1:11PM 

The WC relied on Oswald enterring and leaving "around 1PM" allowed time for him to "briskly" walk the 9/10 of a mile in what the reader was meant to believe was 16 minutes... OK that's fine... PLENTY of time.. But when Roberts reliably placed his leaving at 1:03/1:04PM, and Markham reliably placed herself at the scene at no later than 1:10/1:11PM, that brisk walk suddenly becomes a hard run. 

 

Add to the melee that a witness who turned up a couple of minutes after the shooting having the good sense to check his watch for the time, and placing the time at 1:10PM

Unless I'm mistaken the timescales mentioned by people who have no credible reason to be disbelieved puts the shooting pretty much around 1:08/1:09PM

I did some checks on various times taken to run a mile and simply applied a 9/10 modifer to it... not exactly scientific, but pretty close. This is assuming ideal conditions and wearing suitable running gear... (lightweight vest, shorts, running shoes...) An intermediate level 20-25 yr old middle distance runner could have done it in a little under 6 minutes. Someone who was not a middle distance runner but was in decent shape could do it in around 8 1/2 minutes. (These times are increased significantly if not wearing suitable footwear...) However, in both circumstances, upon stopping their exertion, the runner would have been exhausted! Remember... this isn't "jogging" we are talking about, its running. Normal, healthy, "non-runners" struggle to keep up a full run for more than 2-3 minutes. 

At best Oswald needed to RUN for 6 to 8 minutes, wearing THREE layers of clothing, and wearing normal shoes.  

As to questions over things like Scoggins' posture... I'm pretty new to the Tippit discussion, I have Joe's book but to my shame have yet to get round to it... I've pretty much exclusively focused my interest on the Dealey Plaza evidence part of the case and try not to speculate down too many rabbit holes. But I'm to happy to engage in discussionos over the kneeling, prostrate, standing or otherwise positions of ear-witnesses after the basic question of "How the Hell did he get from Here to There within the permitted time frame?" has been put to rest.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

25 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

@Gil Jesus @Tommy Tomlinson

Hope you don't mind my jumping in...

The Dallas Police recovered the following expended cartridges from the Tippit murder scene:
CE 594-.38 Winchester/Western
CE 594-.38 Winchester/Western
CE 594-.38 Remmington-Peters
CE 594-.38 Remmington-Peters 20

The Commission received the following bullets, recovered from Tippit's body, from the FBI:
CE 602-.38 Win/Western-copper
CE 603-.38 Win/Western-copper
CE604-.38 Remmington-lead
CE 605-.38 Win/Western-copper (20 & 21: FBI SA C. Cunningham's Testimony)

The strange thing is nobody sees Oswald walking between Beckley and Patton at all... from my POV the car which honked at 1026 Beckley was the car that took Oswald to the Theater (we are to remember that the car that came by had been sold previously based on its number and should not have had DPD officers inside.)

Jim Marrs interviewed Jack Davis who was in the theater when Oswald arrived and was surprised at the activity of this man for the 20 minutes prior to the arrival of the police and that he'd sit next to Davis when only 20 people were in the 900 seat theater.  Burroughs confirms to Marrs it was about 20 minutes from when he sold Oswald popcorn and when the police arrived.  IOW he went from the Beckly/Zang/Neches area to the Theater in a very short period of time.  

Also to remember is that Tippit was looking for Oswald/someone, frantically.  Was this person just walking up and down 10th?  Was he dropped off by the car many witnesses talk about seeing drive away?  Per MARKHAM he is walking EAST along 10th - one wonders how Tippit knows to turn onto 10th in his search.  Quite a challenging mystery here.

Surprisingly, people like TATUM who was at 10th and Denver looking WEST claimed he sees both the police car and the man walking... he turns left and drives to Patton (below is the view from Denver & 10th) I'm sure the actual distance appears much closer than in these photos...

Mr. Tatum, if you'll repeat your statement slowly, I'll attempt to type it."

Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street) <snip>

The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back.

From what I can find, only MARKHAM would be at the scene early enough to see this person walk by... and obviously this would be the man walking EAST on 10th...

Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.  (DJ: East on 10th)
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.

Cheers David... that whole discrepancy between casings and bullets was something I heard a long time ago, and someone told me that it had been resolved through a "miscommunication" or "clerical error" of some kind and that I was being silly for mentioning it. Not being too focused on Tippit at the time I kind of let that fly... but having a recently renewed interest in that side of the mystery I tried to find that explanation. I'm not so sure it WAS put to rest. If you have any more on THAT, or can point me to a source to further expnad on that discrepancy I would be really grateful.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Tommy Tomlinson
mistyped "lead" when I mean to type "bullets"

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Cheers David... that whole discrepancy between casings and lead was something I heard a long time ago, and someone told me that it had been resolved through a "miscommunication" or "clerical error" of some kind and that I was being silly for mentioning it. Not being too focused on Tippit at the time I kind of let that fly... but having a recently renewed interest in that side of the mystery I tried to find that explanation. I'm not so sure it WAS put to rest. If you have any more on THAT, or can point me to a source to further expnad on that discrepancy I would be really grateful.

As I understand it:  https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf. Page 26 shows a composite document of the 2 shells KELLEY of the SS takes along with a note about the 5 bullets on Oswald, the 4 bullets still in the pistol and the 4 hulls found at the scene all given to DRAIN.  May help in your thought process in organizing the progression.

There are obviously two separate and distinct paths the pistol travels once back at the Dallas
Police Station on November 22, 1963:

1. McDonald/Carroll > Hill > (initials from McD, Carroll, Hill, Bentley supposedly etched in
handle by screw, yet no photo in evidence shows these initials) > Fritz > T.L. Baker >
gone
2. Fritz > Davenport & officers > Doughty/Barnes > SA Vincent Drain > FBI

And this is one of the shells recovered from the Tippit scene - compared to the bullets "taken" from him later in the day at the DPD...  Notice the gunk where they might have been stored in a belt.. and the difference in the bottom of the shell casings.

I get pretty deep into the subject in that paper...  We must remember the entire day was a charade of evidence with one purpose only.  

 

That the only bit of physical evidence for connecting Oswald to HIDELL for the purpose of planting the murder weapons in his possession is provided to WESTBROOK by CROY... 2 of the most suspicious men within the DPD we know of that day.  Here is Croy at the scene with MARKHAM in the white hat... and the only piece of physical evidence connecting the wallet to the Tippit scene - despite that wallet never being entered into evidence.

(The same location from where the pistol was shipped also provided 700 FC Rifles including one with serial # 2766 - provided the pistol:
1963 - 3 Jan; George Rose and Co. of Los Angeles receives from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods (Montreal, Canada) a shipment of 99 handguns: with these, a V510210 Smith and Wesson (St. W.).)

1964 - 12 Mar; "In connection with efforts to obtain documentary exhibits from Empire Wholesale, it was learned it is not active. It is operated by a brother in law of William Sucher, owner of (CENTURY) International (ARMS) Firearms Co., and is reported as probably fully owned by the latter company.” Sucher is interviewed again by the FBI.

I go more into SUCHER and Century Int'l Arms (CIA) in my papers about the rifle - also on K&K.

DJ

 

 

 

[Tommy Tomlinson]

8 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

As I understand it:  https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf. Page 26 shows a composite document of the 2 shells KELLEY of the SS takes along with a note about the 5 bullets on Oswald, the 4 bullets still in the pistol and the 4 hulls found at the scene all given to DRAIN.  May help in your thought process in organizing the progression.

There are obviously two separate and distinct paths the pistol travels once back at the Dallas
Police Station on November 22, 1963:

1. McDonald/Carroll > Hill > (initials from McD, Carroll, Hill, Bentley supposedly etched in
handle by screw, yet no photo in evidence shows these initials) > Fritz > T.L. Baker >
gone
2. Fritz > Davenport & officers > Doughty/Barnes > SA Vincent Drain > FBI

And this is one of the shells recovered from the Tippit scene - compared to the bullets "taken" from him later in the day at the DPD...  Notice the gunk where they might have been stored in a belt.. and the difference in the bottom of the shell casings.

I get pretty deep into the subject in that paper...  We must remember the entire day was a charade of evidence with one purpose only.  

 

That the only bit of physical evidence for connecting Oswald to HIDELL for the purpose of planting the murder weapons in his possession is provided to WESTBROOK by CROY... 2 of the most suspicious men within the DPD we know of that day.  Here is Croy at the scene with MARKHAM in the white hat... and the only piece of physical evidence connecting the wallet to the Tippit scene - despite that wallet never being entered into evidence.

(The same location from where the pistol was shipped also provided 700 FC Rifles including one with serial # 2766 - provided the pistol:
1963 - 3 Jan; George Rose and Co. of Los Angeles receives from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods (Montreal, Canada) a shipment of 99 handguns: with these, a V510210 Smith and Wesson (St. W.).)

1964 - 12 Mar; "In connection with efforts to obtain documentary exhibits from Empire Wholesale, it was learned it is not active. It is operated by a brother in law of William Sucher, owner of (CENTURY) International (ARMS) Firearms Co., and is reported as probably fully owned by the latter company.” Sucher is interviewed again by the FBI.

I go more into SUCHER and Century Int'l Arms (CIA) in my papers about the rifle - also on K&K.

DJ

 

 

 

Thanks a lot David. I'll open a bottle and make that this evening's reading...

[Evan Marshall]

What I learned as a Detroit copper is that "eyewitnesses" often aren't. Witnesses need to be separated early on so they can't share their version of the truth with other potential witnesses. Also, they need to be interviewed outside their comfort zone. At Homicide we found the results were much better if we are sitting in an interrogation room on the 5th floor of police headquarters.  Interviewing of prospective witnesses should be done ONLY after we gather as much info about the incident as possible. Rushing thru this process is never a good idea. AND witnesses that are not familiar with the sound of gunshots and violent events are often terrible witnesses.

 

And cops are often horrible witnesses too.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Evan Marshall