A Question of Credibility: Tippit Witnesses Can't Agree

[Michael Kalin]

On 11/22/63 Markham told DPD, "I screamed and the man ran west on E. 10th across Patton Street and went out of sight," and the FBI, "The young man ran west on 10th Street to the corner, turned south and disappeared." On 12/2/63 she told the SS, "when he got to the corner of Patton Avenue and Tenth Street...he started running...He ran at an angle across Patton Ave, and the last time I saw him, he was running down Patton Avenue toward Jefferson Street." The 3/16/64 FBI report says pretty much the same thing: "After OSWALD had gotten to the southeast corner of Patton and 10th, he started running diagonally across the street in a southwesterly direction to the west side of Patton. She last saw OSWALD as he was running down Patton Street."
 
On 11/22/63 Callaway told DPD, "I saw a white man running South on Patton with a pistol in hand." The 12/3/63 SS report adds the details that he "watched the man come south on Patton on the west side of the street" and "I could see the man with the pistol going through the yard of the apartment house at the northwest corner of Jefferson and Patton." On 2/25/64 he told the FBI that "he observed a person running in a sort of trot on the east side of Patton toward Jefferson Avenue," but this must have been a mistake because he also said "the man was across the street from him," which indicates the west side. Continuing with the route description, "He said this person cut through a corner of the front yard of a two-story house on the northwest corner of the intersection of Jefferson Avenue at Patton Street." On 3/17/64 in another FBI interview he reiterated this route, i.e. "OSWALD went from East 10th Street to Jefferson where OSWALD than walked across the corner of the lot at Patton and Jefferson in a westerly direction toward the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff..."

Getting back to the day of the murder the following provided corroboration as to Markham's description of the original DPD flight path:
1. Poe/Jez report: "There were approximately six to eight witnesses, all telling officers that the subject was running west in the alley between Tenth and Jefferson Streets."
2. Barnes' diagram: "W on ally to Crawford left on Crawford to E Jefferson 300 bk."
3. Cimino: "She...stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street."

No one corroborated Callaway's story of a fugitive proceeding along the west side of Patton Avenue the entire distance to Jefferson. Patterson & Guinyard both specified the east side.

Scoggins' account gets complicated. His 11/23/63 DPD affidavit contains the dubious "He ran west on Tenth to Patton then south on Patton to Jefferson." The same day FBI report reiterates this route ("He ran west on Tenth to Patton then south on Patton onto Jefferson"), but both are undermined by the subsequent 12/2/63 SS report. It states, "The man came west on Tenth Street, cut across the yard of the house on the corner of 10th and Patton and proceeded south on Patton on the east side of the street...He proceeded a short distance south on Patton toward Jefferson when I ran back to the cab..." His 3/16/64 FBI report states, "He looked up from his crouched position through the windows of the cab and observed OSWALD on the sidewalk headed south down Patton Street...He observed OSWALD go south on the west side of Patton Street about sixty feet. He did not observe this man any longer..." He told the WC "that I don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did look and never did get to see him." [3H327]

Both DPD & FBI 11/23/63 statements preclude the excursion across the Davis yard and exit via the shrubbery, elements that appear in the SS (12/2/63) & FBI (3/16/64) reports and rise to an obsession with the WC interrogators. [3H331] Prior to the SS report an early framer figured out that it would prove detrimental to the evolving plot that Scoggins observed the gunman run to the corner of 10th & Patton.

Note that Poe/Jez did not report that anyone witnessed a flight path on Patton extending from E. 10th all the way to Jefferson. Neither did any other DPD officer. Therefore, Markham's description of the route should receive the recognition it deserves for standing on solid ground and Callaway's dismissed because of contradiction by other evidence and general lack of support. About the only way to make the latter stick is to postulate a second fugitive who took the path witnessed by Callaway and nobody else.

Result: round one goes to Markham.

[Bill Brown]

On 2/4/2023 at 1:19 PM, Michael Kalin said:

On 11/22/63 Markham told DPD, "I screamed and the man ran west on E. 10th across Patton Street and went out of sight," and the FBI, "The young man ran west on 10th Street to the corner, turned south and disappeared." On 12/2/63 she told the SS, "when he got to the corner of Patton Avenue and Tenth Street...he started running...He ran at an angle across Patton Ave, and the last time I saw him, he was running down Patton Avenue toward Jefferson Street." The 3/16/64 FBI report says pretty much the same thing: "After OSWALD had gotten to the southeast corner of Patton and 10th, he started running diagonally across the street in a southwesterly direction to the west side of Patton. She last saw OSWALD as he was running down Patton Street."
 
On 11/22/63 Callaway told DPD, "I saw a white man running South on Patton with a pistol in hand." The 12/3/63 SS report adds the details that he "watched the man come south on Patton on the west side of the street" and "I could see the man with the pistol going through the yard of the apartment house at the northwest corner of Jefferson and Patton." On 2/25/64 he told the FBI that "he observed a person running in a sort of trot on the east side of Patton toward Jefferson Avenue," but this must have been a mistake because he also said "the man was across the street from him," which indicates the west side. Continuing with the route description, "He said this person cut through a corner of the front yard of a two-story house on the northwest corner of the intersection of Jefferson Avenue at Patton Street." On 3/17/64 in another FBI interview he reiterated this route, i.e. "OSWALD went from East 10th Street to Jefferson where OSWALD than walked across the corner of the lot at Patton and Jefferson in a westerly direction toward the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff..."

Getting back to the day of the murder the following provided corroboration as to Markham's description of the original DPD flight path:
1. Poe/Jez report: "There were approximately six to eight witnesses, all telling officers that the subject was running west in the alley between Tenth and Jefferson Streets."
2. Barnes' diagram: "W on ally to Crawford left on Crawford to E Jefferson 300 bk."
3. Cimino: "She...stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street."

No one corroborated Callaway's story of a fugitive proceeding along the west side of Patton Avenue the entire distance to Jefferson. Patterson & Guinyard both specified the east side.

Scoggins' account gets complicated. His 11/23/63 DPD affidavit contains the dubious "He ran west on Tenth to Patton then south on Patton to Jefferson." The same day FBI report reiterates this route ("He ran west on Tenth to Patton then south on Patton onto Jefferson"), but both are undermined by the subsequent 12/2/63 SS report. It states, "The man came west on Tenth Street, cut across the yard of the house on the corner of 10th and Patton and proceeded south on Patton on the east side of the street...He proceeded a short distance south on Patton toward Jefferson when I ran back to the cab..." His 3/16/64 FBI report states, "He looked up from his crouched position through the windows of the cab and observed OSWALD on the sidewalk headed south down Patton Street...He observed OSWALD go south on the west side of Patton Street about sixty feet. He did not observe this man any longer..." He told the WC "that I don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did look and never did get to see him." [3H327]

Both DPD & FBI 11/23/63 statements preclude the excursion across the Davis yard and exit via the shrubbery, elements that appear in the SS (12/2/63) & FBI (3/16/64) reports and rise to an obsession with the WC interrogators. [3H331] Prior to the SS report an early framer figured out that it would prove detrimental to the evolving plot that Scoggins observed the gunman run to the corner of 10th & Patton.

Note that Poe/Jez did not report that anyone witnessed a flight path on Patton extending from E. 10th all the way to Jefferson. Neither did any other DPD officer. Therefore, Markham's description of the route should receive the recognition it deserves for standing on solid ground and Callaway's dismissed because of contradiction by other evidence and general lack of support. About the only way to make the latter stick is to postulate a second fugitive who took the path witnessed by Callaway and nobody else.

Result: round one goes to Markham.

 

Oswald jumps the shrubbery and begins to head south on Patton (on the east side of Patton).  After going down Patton a bit (Scoggins' 60 feet?), Oswald notices Sam Guinyard on the sidewalk near the alley looking up at him.  A little further down, Oswald also sees that Ted Callaway is out on the sidewalk, also looking up at him.  Both Guinyard and Callaway are on the sidewalk on the east side of Patton.

 

Is it really that far-fetched that Oswald went down Patton on the east side for a ways and then, before he got to the halfway point (where Guinyard was watching him), Oswald, not wanting to walk/trot right past these two men, decides to cross Patton and continues down Patton now on the west side of the street?

 

This is exactly what happened.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Michael Kalin]

23 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Oswald jumps the shrubbery and begins to head south on Patton (on the east side of Patton).  After going down Patton a bit (Scoggins' 60 feet?), Oswald notices Sam Guinyard on the sidewalk near the alley looking up at him.  A little further down, Oswald also sees that Ted Callaway is out on the sidewalk, also looking up at him.  Both Guinyard and Callaway are on the sidewalk on the east side of Patton.

 

Is it really that far-fetched that Oswald went down Patton on the east side for a ways and then, before he got to the halfway point (where Guinyard was watching him), Oswald (not wanting to walk/trot right past these two men, decides to cross Patton and continues down Patton now on the west side of the street?

Scoggins saw the fugitive "go south on the west side of Patton Street about sixty feet," not the east side, but it hardly matters. The critical point is that only Callaway claimed to observe a route that continued on the west side from the alley to the northwest corner of Patton & Jefferson.

This means your uncorroborated proposed route, regardless of the misread witness statement, is really far-fetched.

[Gil Jesus]

Deleted. For some reason it's posting but not notifying the poster causing multiple posts.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

Deleted

Edited February 6, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:10 AM, Joe Bauer said:

But there must be "something" in her statements and her claimed connection to the main characters involved through probable verifiable employment  documentation that is motivating you to at least say she sounds credible? And not dismissing her right off the bat...correct?

Seems to me someone with your long career experience in interrogation can make an immediate determination whether a witness is even worth  your valuable time interviewing?

 

 

 

FWIW, a wise old man once told me, "Beware of people who brag about who they are. A lion doesn't have to tell you he's a lion."

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Scoggins saw the fugitive "go south on the west side of Patton Street about sixty feet," not the east side, but it hardly matters. The critical point is that only Callaway claimed to observe a route that continued on the west side from the alley to the northwest corner of Patton & Jefferson.

This means your uncorroborated proposed route, regardless of the misread witness statement, is really far-fetched.

 

Scoggins saw the killer flee down Patton first on the east side (naturally) and then the killer crossed to the west side of the street.  So what?

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Michael Kalin]

15 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Scoggins saw the killer flee down Patton first on the east side (naturally) and then the killer crossed to the west side of the street.  So what?

 

 

So this -- Callaway doesn't have a leg to stand on. Markham has many.

Pay attention to the argument (my comment 2/4/23 -- see above).

[Bill Brown]

52 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

So this -- Callaway doesn't have a leg to stand on. Markham has many.

Pay attention to the argument (my comment 2/4/23 -- see above).

 

Instead of copying and pasting.... how about you just spell it out right here, in your own words, what it is that you're trying to say?

 

[Michael Kalin]

Reminder of this thread's theme: "Two of the Warren Commission's key witnesses to the murder of Dallas Police officer J.D. Tippit, Helen Markham and Ted Callaway, give completely different descriptions of the route the murderer took after the killing, the clothing he was wearing and his physical description. Which one is correct?"

1. Markham's description of the route should receive the recognition it deserves for standing on solid ground and Callaway's dismissed because of contradiction by other evidence and general lack of support.
2. Callaway doesn't have a leg to stand on. Markham has many.
3. Markham saw Tippit's killer flee via the alley from Patton to Crawford after crossing Patton at Tenth because that's the way he went.
4. Callaway did not see Tippit's killer flee via Patton to the NW corner of Jefferson because he didn't go that way (see #3).
5. Markham's description is correct.
6. Callaway's description is incorrect (see #5).

Edited February 7, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Steve Roe]

22 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Reminder of this thread's theme: "Two of the Warren Commission's key witnesses to the murder of Dallas Police officer J.D. Tippit, Helen Markham and Ted Callaway, give completely different descriptions of the route the murderer took after the killing, the clothing he was wearing and his physical description. Which one is correct?"

1. Markham's description of the route should receive the recognition it deserves for standing on solid ground and Callaway's dismissed because of contradiction by other evidence and general lack of support.
2. Callaway doesn't have a leg to stand on. Markham has many.
3. Markham saw Tippit's killer flee via the alley from Patton to Crawford after crossing Patton at Tenth because that's the way he went.
4. Callaway did not see Tippit's killer flee via Patton to the NW corner of Jefferson because he didn't go that way (see #3).
5. Markham's description is correct.
6. Callaway's description is incorrect (see #5).

What alleyway are you referring to? There is one alley (west side of Patton) just north of Jefferson behind the shops/stores and Texaco station. Or are you saying the alleyway behind the 10th street homes on the east side of Patton? 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Steve Roe
Add clarification.

[Michael Kalin]

The alley ran from Patton to Crawford just behind the Abundant Life Temple. Sergeant Barnes' diagram is attached.

 

[Greg Doudna]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:19 AM, Michael Kalin said:

On 11/22/63 Markham told DPD, "I screamed and the man ran west on E. 10th across Patton Street and went out of sight," and the FBI, "The young man ran west on 10th Street to the corner, turned south and disappeared." On 12/2/63 she told the SS, "when he got to the corner of Patton Avenue and Tenth Street...he started running...He ran at an angle across Patton Ave, and the last time I saw him, he was running down Patton Avenue toward Jefferson Street." The 3/16/64 FBI report says pretty much the same thing: "After OSWALD had gotten to the southeast corner of Patton and 10th, he started running diagonally across the street in a southwesterly direction to the west side of Patton. She last saw OSWALD as he was running down Patton Street."
 
On 11/22/63 Callaway told DPD, "I saw a white man running South on Patton with a pistol in hand." The 12/3/63 SS report adds the details that he "watched the man come south on Patton on the west side of the street" and "I could see the man with the pistol going through the yard of the apartment house at the northwest corner of Jefferson and Patton." On 2/25/64 he told the FBI that "he observed a person running in a sort of trot on the east side of Patton toward Jefferson Avenue," but this must have been a mistake because he also said "the man was across the street from him," which indicates the west side. Continuing with the route description, "He said this person cut through a corner of the front yard of a two-story house on the northwest corner of the intersection of Jefferson Avenue at Patton Street." On 3/17/64 in another FBI interview he reiterated this route, i.e. "OSWALD went from East 10th Street to Jefferson where OSWALD than walked across the corner of the lot at Patton and Jefferson in a westerly direction toward the Texas Theatre in Oak Cliff..."

Getting back to the day of the murder the following provided corroboration as to Markham's description of the original DPD flight path:
1. Poe/Jez report: "There were approximately six to eight witnesses, all telling officers that the subject was running west in the alley between Tenth and Jefferson Streets."
2. Barnes' diagram: "W on ally to Crawford left on Crawford to E Jefferson 300 bk."
3. Cimino: "She...stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street."

No one corroborated Callaway's story of a fugitive proceeding along the west side of Patton Avenue the entire distance to Jefferson. Patterson & Guinyard both specified the east side.

Scoggins' account gets complicated. His 11/23/63 DPD affidavit contains the dubious "He ran west on Tenth to Patton then south on Patton to Jefferson." The same day FBI report reiterates this route ("He ran west on Tenth to Patton then south on Patton onto Jefferson"), but both are undermined by the subsequent 12/2/63 SS report. It states, "The man came west on Tenth Street, cut across the yard of the house on the corner of 10th and Patton and proceeded south on Patton on the east side of the street...He proceeded a short distance south on Patton toward Jefferson when I ran back to the cab..." His 3/16/64 FBI report states, "He looked up from his crouched position through the windows of the cab and observed OSWALD on the sidewalk headed south down Patton Street...He observed OSWALD go south on the west side of Patton Street about sixty feet. He did not observe this man any longer..." He told the WC "that I don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did look and never did get to see him." [3H327]

Both DPD & FBI 11/23/63 statements preclude the excursion across the Davis yard and exit via the shrubbery, elements that appear in the SS (12/2/63) & FBI (3/16/64) reports and rise to an obsession with the WC interrogators. [3H331] Prior to the SS report an early framer figured out that it would prove detrimental to the evolving plot that Scoggins observed the gunman run to the corner of 10th & Patton.

Note that Poe/Jez did not report that anyone witnessed a flight path on Patton extending from E. 10th all the way to Jefferson. Neither did any other DPD officer. Therefore, Markham's description of the route should receive the recognition it deserves for standing on solid ground and Callaway's dismissed because of contradiction by other evidence and general lack of support. About the only way to make the latter stick is to postulate a second fugitive who took the path witnessed by Callaway and nobody else.

Result: round one goes to Markham.

Michael, nothing in Markham's words as reported by you contradicts Callaway. Markham's words quoted by you say nothing about seeing him go down the alley. So I do not understand why you are saying "round one goes to Markham". 

Second, you say "no one corroborated Callaway's" route of the gunman going south to Jefferson and then west, but Warren Reynolds did, and another salesman with him across the street from that corner. They followed the gunman on Jefferson until the gunman then turned back toward and into the alley, passing Dean's Grocery and Mrs. Dean told her children for years after that that she saw the gunman go past the front of her store (on Jefferson). So there are three corroborations, not "no one".

On the witnesses speaking of the gunman turning in to the alley off of Patton before getting to Jefferson, I do not believe any witness actually on Patton said that, and the others would probably be misunderstandings not in as good position to see or know, or speaking hearsay (mistakes enter in hearsay). 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Bill Brown]

Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson, Harold Russell and LJ Lewis all saw the fleeing gunman come all the way down Patton and head West on Jefferson. Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith saw the killer in the alley behind the Texaco station, almost all the way to Crawford, one block west of Patton.

 

Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith were friends with James Markham, Helen Markham's son. No doubt Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith believed the killer fled west through the alley once he got halfway down Patton; a logical assumption, though incorrect. No doubt Burt and Smith told their story of the events that day to friends in the following weeks and months.

 

In my opinion, James Markham heard their version of the story and therefore he believed the killer fled through the alley. No doubt, he tells his mother this and Helen Markham repeats it as fact. This is all logical if you have the ability to think critically.

 

Sadly, Michael Kalin is using witness statements to create a scenario even though he is not aware of the full list of witnesses (Reynolds, Patterson, Russell, Lewis). 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Michael Kalin]

Reference the brace of preceding comments which I'm not going to quote as arguments this flimsy do not bear repetition. Since I've already presented my argument several ways there will be no attempt to simplify it further. A word to the wise: try to determine the identities of the "approximately six to eight witnesses, all telling officers that the subject was running west in the alley between Tenth and Jefferson Streets" mentioned in the Poe/Jez report. Markham was number one.

Forget about Callaway's credibility -- declaring him credible doesn't make him so. Leavelle appointed him conductor of the Tippit branch of the Oswald railroad.

And no seance material derived from Myers is worth responding to, he who specializes in formulating latter-day witness testimony drawn from the mouths of survivors, having lacked the diligence to interview the actual witnesses while they lived.

As to what Reynolds really saw on 11/22/63, listen to Ron Reiland's WFAA broadcast to get the drift as the camera cuts from a parking lot view with the Abundant Life Temple in the background to the rear of a "junk shop" that fronted on the alley.
https://archive.org/details/JFKAssassinationRonReilandFilm

It's difficult to make sense of Jimmy Burt's & William Smith's alleged activities. The alley ran from the Gentlemen's Club at Patton to the Abundant Life Temple at Crawford, 100+ feet from the Texaco  Station. The proposed involvement of their friend James Markham has no support from any quarter whatsoever.

No straw men allowed! I am familiar with the fragmentary "full list of witnesses," and several other witnesses not listed, but choose to refrain from contemplating copy & paste scenarios lifted from the shambles known as the Warren Report.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Michael Kalin