The Witnesses: Acquilla Clemons

[Bill Brown]

5 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Yeah its worth reading. He gets alot of stuff wrong though.

 

Gerry, just curious... Can you give examples of this "a lot of stuff" that Myers gets wrong in With Malice?

[Gerry Down]

3 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Gerry, just curious... Can you give examples of this "a lot of stuff" that Myers gets wrong in With Malice?

His Oswald walking east-west theory. Markham has him walking onto the curb right in front of Scoggins cab going east. That doesn't fit his theory. Neither is there enough time to have Oswald walking west along 10th street for any considerable period of time.

Also the Glocco gas station thing. If I remember correctly, Myers says (I think) Tippit was not at that station when from what I can see he was. 

[Gerry Down]

For anyone interested, the Shirley Martin interview is here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/11/acquilla-clemons-and-murder-of-jd-tippit.html

Here is how DVP presents it on his website:

Mrs. Martin asked Acquilla Clemons what happened to the man standing across the street after the gunman ran off.

MARTIN: The other one went up that… Patton?
CLEMONS: Yeah. He went up [unintelligible]. He may have been just a boy getting out of the way. [emphasis added]
MARTIN: Scared maybe.
CLEMONS: Yeah. Probably somebody he told to get out of his way or something...

Here, too, is another ah-hah moment – a sharp, left-turn off the path that we were led down fifty-three years ago.

It is quite clear from the above exchange, that Mrs. Clemons didn’t think the man standing across the street from the gunman was an accomplice – as has been presented as a matter-of-fact by Mark Lane and virtually every person seeking to exonerate Oswald for the Tippit murder – but rather, that Mrs. Clemons thought the man might have been simply another eyewitness who, like her, ran away from the gunman in fear of losing his life.

From this we can see that Oswald was simply motioning to someone on the other side of the street to get lost as Oswald reloaded his gun and took off running. 

[Bill Brown]

7 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

His Oswald walking east-west theory. Markham has him walking onto the curb right in front of Scoggins cab going east. That doesn't fit his theory. Neither is there enough time to have Oswald walking west along 10th street for any considerable period of time.

Also the Glocco gas station thing. If I remember correctly, Myers says (I think) Tippit was not at that station when from what I can see he was. 

 

"His Oswald walking east-west theory. Markham has him walking onto the curb right in front of Scoggins cab going east."

 

Markham said that, yes.  However, Scoggins stated that he did not see Oswald walk right in front of his cab.  So, if we listen to Scoggins, Oswald wasn't walking from west to east, per Markham.  So why say Myers is wrong, i.e. why say Scoggins is wrong?  Between Markham and Scoggins, one is wrong but why is it automatic that Scoggins/Myers is wrong?  Perhaps Markham was wrong?

 

Myers interviewed Bill Smith who says he and Jimmy Burt were out in the front yard of the house on the corner of Tenth and Denver.  This is one block east of Tenth and Patton.  Smith said that Burt saw the man (who would eventually kill Tippit) walking from east to west along Tenth toward the eventual location of the encounter between Tippit and his killer.  So we can put Burt into a category with Scoggins.

 

 

"Neither is there enough time to have Oswald walking west along 10th street for any considerable period of time."

 

After Tippit is shot, according to the Dallas County Sheriff's radio transcripts, a sheriff's deputy reports that he is near the location of Tenth and Marsalis.

 

Myers puts forth this idea in the updated 2013 edition of With Malice...

 

Oswald is walking west to east along Tenth toward Marsalis.  Just east of it's intersection with Denver, Tenth Street curves to the right.  Oswald, walking west to east, begins to go around that curve and notices a sheriff deputy's car sitting there (we know from the transcripts that one was there minutes later).  Therefore, Oswald does an about face and is now walking east to west along Tenth.  Remember, Jimmy Burt said he saw the killer, before the encounter with Tippit, walking east to west along Tenth.

 

Oswald, having been on the run for over forty minutes at this point, has no idea if his face has been plastered all over television and therefore he does not want to walk past the deputy's car.  He reverses direction and is now walking on Tenth back toward Patton.

 

If Oswald left the rooming house at 1 pm sharp, he could arrive at Tenth and Patton (the first time) around 1:11.  Give him three to four minutes to walk west to east on Tenth to the point where Tenth curves (toward Marsalis) and back and you have Oswald right where he encounters Tippit perfectly in time.

This is admittedly speculation, but if it happened this way, Burt sees the man after the man has performed the about face on Tenth.

 

 

"Also the Glocco gas station thing. If I remember correctly, Myers says (I think) Tippit was not at that station when from what I can see he was."

 

I don't believe Myers ever says that Tippit was not at the Gloco station.

 

[Gerry Down]

22 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

Myers interviewed Bill Smith who says he and Jimmy Burt were out in the front yard of the house on the corner of Tenth and Denver.  This is one block east of Tenth and Patton.  Smith said that Burt saw the man (who would eventually kill Tippit) walking from east to west along Tenth toward the eventual location of the encounter between Tippit and his killer.  So we can put Burt into a category with Scoggins.

I don't believe Myers ever says that Tippit was not at the Gloco station.

 

Smith and Burt are poor witnesses.

Maybe Myers does say Tippit was at the Gloco gas station but he significantly contradicts the eyewitnesses timings of when he was there if I remember correctly, even though the eyewitnesses are fairly all consistent regarding the timing of when Tippit was there. 

The other thing I was surprised about Myers was that in a recent "Out Of The Blank" interview he suggests Tatum is not a real witness. That's quiet a big claim. From what I can see, Tatum is legit. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Bill Brown]

4 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Smith and Burt are poor witnesses.

Maybe Myers does say Tippit was at the Gloco gas station but he significantly contradicts the eyewitnesses timings of when he was there if I remember correctly, even though the eyewitnesses are fairly all consistent regarding the timing of when Tippit was there. 

The other thing I was surprised about Myers was that in a recent "Out Of The Blank" interview he suggests Tatum is not a real witness. That's quiet a big claim. From what I can see, Tatum is legit. 

 

Myers believes Tatum was on Tenth Street and therefore does not "suggest" Tatum was not a real witness.

 

[Gerry Down]

8 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Myers believes Tatum was on Tenth Street and therefore does not "suggest" Tatum was not a real witness.

 

I just rewatched Dale Myers recent interview and realized I misinterpreted what he was saying. I thought Myers was saying Tatum was making up even being a witness but what he is actually saying is that Tatum is mistaken, or even lying, only about the head shot. The interview is here from 59 minutes to 1 hour 3 minutes:

https://youtu.be/e0Hzc6JDObs

[Bill Brown]

11 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

I just rewatched Dale Myers recent interview and realized I misinterpreted what he was saying. I thought Myers was saying Tatum was making up even being a witness but what he is actually saying is that Tatum is mistaken, or even lying, only about the head shot. The interview is here from 59 minutes to 1 hour 3 minutes:

https://youtu.be/e0Hzc6JDObs

 

Again, what are the "a lot of things" Myers got wrong?

 

[Gerry Down]

16 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Again, what are the "a lot of things" Myers got wrong?

 

Well Tatum is not a l--r for one. Surprised Myers even suggested such a thing on his recent interview. 

And there simply isn't enough time to have Oswald going up and down 10th street like a yo-yo unless you try to push the Earlene Roberts encounter uncomfortably well before 1pm and try to cut out the time Oswald stood still at the bus stop outside his rooming house. The theory is also poor in that it has the normally cool Oswald doing something as stupid as turning around on the sidewalk with a patrol car coming against him. I just wonder if Myers was over zealous to come up with something "new" for his book and this awkward theory was the result.

The WC version is more straight forward and matches the timing better of Oswald leaving his rooming house at 1:03pm, standing at the bus stop and next being seen by Markham mounting the curb in front of Scoggins cab.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Gil Jesus]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:51 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Interesting that so many nearby residents came to their doors within seconds of the shooting and saw what they did. 

And the FBI was ordered NOT to interview some of those witnesses. In fact, Hoover ordered the Dallas FBI to NOT interview Mrs. Clemons and the Wrights.

That's not the way you handle a criminal investigation.

 

 

[Gil Jesus]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:51 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Interesting that so many nearby residents came to their doors within seconds of the shooting and saw what they did. 

Sorry for the repeat. Too bad we can't delete posts.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

And the FBI was ordered NOT to interview some of those witnesses. In fact, Hoover ordered the Dallas FBI to NOT interview Mrs. Clemons and the Wrights.

That's not the way you handle a criminal investigation.

 

 

I don't think there is anything really sinister in that document. Oswald had been an FBI informant in New Orleans for DeBrueys and once the WCR was issued in Sept 1964, the FBI were happy to not try and dig up anything new in the assassination in case it inadvertently threw attention back on Oswald and inadvertently led back to his FBI informant status. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Bill Brown]

9 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Well Tatum is not a l--r for one. Surprised Myers even suggested such a thing on his recent interview. 

And there simply isn't enough time to have Oswald going up and down 10th street like a yo-yo unless you try to push the Earlene Roberts encounter uncomfortably well before 1pm and try to cut out the time Oswald stood still at the bus stop outside his rooming house. The theory is also poor in that it has the normally cool Oswald doing something as stupid as turning around on the sidewalk with a patrol car coming against him. I just wonder if Myers was over zealous to come up with something "new" for his book and this awkward theory was the result.

The WC version is more straight forward and matches the timing better of Oswald leaving his rooming house at 1:03pm, standing at the bus stop and next being seen by Markham mounting the curb in front of Scoggins cab.

 

"Well Tatum is not a l--r for one. Surprised Myers even suggested such a thing on his recent interview."

 

Referring to Tatum, Myers clearly said:  "I'm certain he believes what he's describing is what happened."

 

[Joe Bauer]

6 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Oswald had been an FBI informant in New Orleans for DeBrueys and once the WCR was issued in Sept 1964, the FBI were happy to not try and dig up anything new in the assassination in case it inadvertently threw attention back on Oswald and inadvertently led back to his FBI informant status. 

I believe what you say about Oswald in New Orleans.

If true, my goodness, how important is this fact in knowing the full truth about Oswald?

And to the rest of the JFK story regards Oswald?

Dallas FBI agent James Hosty ( "Assignment Oswald" author ) actually chuckled when years after his initial Warren Commission testimony he was asked why he didn't tell the committee about his being ordered by his boss to destroy at least one document his office held about Oswald. And his doing so.

His answer to the question why he didn't mention this to the committee was "I wasn't asked."

I wasn't asked." ???

So, Hosty's violating his sworn " so help me God" oath "To tell the truth, the "whole" truth and "nothing but" the truth" to the Warren Commission ( whose almost sacred mission it was to get to the full truth about the JFK assassination to the American people ) is looked at later by Hosty as ... a laughing matter?

The FBI purposely destroyed hugely important evidence about Oswald...and the man who did this "chuckles" about keeping this information from the American people when they were desperate for the whole truth?

I found Hosty's "full truth" avoidance ( through purposeful omission ) actions and especially his chuckling admission about doing so later deplorable.

Hosty's loyalty to his employer clearly trumped his loyalty to the Warren Commission and the American people.

Of course, after we discovered the Dallas Oswald evidence destruction via Hosty's admission, it is totally reasonable to assume the FBI withheld much about Oswald in New Orleans as well.

Almost forcing one to realize the Warren Commission was not provided the full truth about Oswald by the very agency they were depending on for such information most of their investigation.

The Commission's integrity was totally dependent on what the FBI was providing them.

I recently listened to a You Tube debate between Mark Lane and senior council for the WC Joseph Ball on Dec. 4th, 1964 at California located Occidental College.

Imagine if Lane knew about the Dallas FBI admitted ordered destruction of Oswald evidence the day ( or next day ) of Oswald's murder and Oswald's FBI connection in New Orleans the Summer of 1963 during the debate? Same goes for Lane's later debate with Warren Commision assistant council Wesley Lieberer and even during Lane's go with William F. Buckley on Buckley's TV show firing line?

That Oswald evidence destruction and withheld Oswald New Orleans FBI connection info would have set Ball, Liebeler and Buckley back on their Warren Commission defending heels.

Many years ago I caught a radio station interview of Hosty to promote his book "Assignment Oswald."

Something Hosty volunteered in the interview raised my brow.

He told the interviewer "we had three of them."

Three of them?  What?

He was referring to Warren Commission members that were feeding his FBI information through out their investigation. Again, a complete violation of their charter framework of complete unbiased independence integrity.

We all knew WC member Gerald Ford was an FBI man, but Hosty's quoted admission of two more WC members being secretly connected to them during the investigation just adds to the realization truth that the WC was unethically compromised like that.

How can anyone not question the WC's integrity knowing these facts?

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Gerry Down]

 

8 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I found Hosty's "full truth avoidance through purposeful omission ) actions and especially his chuckling admission about doing so later deplorable.

Where did Hosty make that admission to chuckling - was it in his book "Assignment Oswald"?