Why Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's Critics Are Wrong

[Jeff Carter]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

You keep ignoring and twisting the facts about Prouty.

-- Prouty wrote letters attacking Hubbard's critics.

-- Prouty took money to appear as an "expert witness" to defend Scientology.

-- Prouty sat on an advisory board of the anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying Liberty Lobby.

-- Prouty had a book published by a Holocaust-denying publishing company.

-- Incredibly, Prouty testified as a character witness for Willis Carto, an unashamed anti-Semite, Holocaust denier, and white supremacist, in the IHR trial. Carto founded Liberty Lobby.

-- You're citing occult writer Peter Levenda as a source for the bogus claim that Hubbard worked "deep cover" for naval intelligence???!!! Let's look at some of the bizarre books that Levenda has written:

Sinister Forces - The Nine: A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft (Sinister Forces) (2005)
Gates of the Necronomicon (as Simon) (2006)
Stairway to Heaven: Chinese Alchemists, Jewish Kabbalists, and the Art of Spiritual Transformation (2008)
Tantric Temples: Eros and Magic in Java (2011)
The Angel And The Sorcerer (2012)
The Dark Lord: H. P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant, and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic (2013)
The Tantric Alchemist: Thomas Vaughan and the Indian Tantric Tradition (2015)
The Lovecraft Code (2016)
Sekret [sic] Machines: Gods (with Tom DeLonge) (2017)

Eee-gads! This is the kind of fringe writer you're citing in response to the evidence that Prouty had no clue about interpreting Hubbard's military records? And just never mind that Hubbard was a crook and an abject crackpot? Just never mind that fact?

The attacks on Prouty, far from being "thinly sourced, out of context, and cherry picked," are abundantly documented in his own writings and interviews. Let's summarize some of what we now know beyond any doubt about him:

-- He lied about his role in presidential protection.

-- He lied about the sinister nature of his trip to the South Pole.

-- When he was asked to produce the putatively historic notes that he had claimed in writing he had taken of his alleged 316th Det/112th MI Group "stand down" phone call, he lamely said they were "long gone" and offered no explanation for why he had failed to safeguard such supposedly historic notes (and, sadly, the ARRB interviewers were too polite to press him on this point). 

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale was involved in the Lumumba and Trujillo murders.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale hated JFK and wanted him dead.

-- He made the bogus claim that Lansdale wanted to see a huge escalation in the American involvement in South Vietnam.

-- Without a shred of supporting evidence, he claimed that Lansdale was involved in the assassination plot and was even in Dealey Plaza on the day it happened. 

-- He said that Princess Diana may have been assassinated by "the secret team." He said he "would not be surprised" to learn that the secret team had killed Diana.

-- He approvingly quoted Stalin's nutty theory that Churchill poisoned FDR.

-- He associated with known anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers, and even appeared as a character witness for Willis Carto in the IHR trial. As mentioned, Carto founded Liberty Lobby and was an unabashed Holocaust denier, anti-Semite, and white supremacist. 

-- He repeatedly defended the crook and quack Ron Hubbard. He stridently attacked Russell Miller's excellent expose of Hubbard and Scientology Bare-Faced Messiah.

-- He publicly praised the cult of Scientology. 

Moderators, please, please move any threads about Fletcher Prouty to another subforum so that the JFK case is not tainted by association with this fraud and nutjob.
 

I have had reason to do a bit of a dive into Prouty’s career and record, which inevitably includes noting the semi-successful efforts of character assassination unleashed in the wake of the “JFK” film. It is a bit shocking to encounter the persistence of these efforts, particularly since Griffith is merely repeating the clearly one-sided and agenda-driven things he has read. Continuing efforts directed against Prouty’s reputation did at least influence a classic essay describing online narrative management techniques:

https://wikipediaonlineatrocity.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/anatomy-of-an-online-atrocity-wikipedia-gamaliel-and-the-fletcher-prouty-entry/

 

That said, it is further of note that every single one of the bullet points which concludes Griffith’s post are either factually incorrect or represent a gross distortion of the record:

-- He lied about his role in presidential protection.

            Factually incorrect. His statements were entirely consistent with his experience.

-- He lied about the sinister nature of his trip to the South Pole.

             Factually incorrect. See his Letter to Garrison Oct 2, 1985

-- When he was asked to produce the putatively historic notes…

            Gross distortion of the record. The notes exist.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale was involved in the Lumumba and Trujillo murders.

            Factually incorrect.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale hated JFK and wanted him dead.

            Factually incorrect.

- He made the bogus claim that Lansdale wanted to see a huge escalation in the American involvement in South Vietnam.

            Factually incorrect.

-- Without a shred of supporting evidence, he claimed that Lansdale was involved in the assassination plot and was even in Dealey Plaza on the day it happened

            Gross distortion and factually incorrect. Lansdale has been traced to Dallas outer suburb Denton on November 21, 1963.

- He said that Princess Diana may have been assassinated by "the secret team." He said he "would not be surprised" to learn that the secret team had killed Diana.

            Gross distortion.Cherry-picked speculation presented out-of-context.

-- He approvingly quoted Stalin's nutty theory that Churchill poisoned FDR.

            Gross distortion of the record. Prouty cited a published quotation.

-- He associated with known anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers…

            Gross distortion of the record.

- He repeatedly defended the crook and quack Ron Hubbard. He stridently attacked Russell Miller's excellent expose of Hubbard and Scientology Bare-Faced Messiah.

             Gross distortion of the record. “Expert witness” is legally an objective party.

- He publicly praised the cult of Scientology. 

            Factually incorrect.

[W. Niederhut]

21 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

I have had reason to do a bit of a dive into Prouty’s career and record, which inevitably includes noting the semi-successful efforts of character assassination unleashed in the wake of the “JFK” film. It is a bit shocking to encounter the persistence of these efforts, particularly since Griffith is merely repeating the clearly one-sided and agenda-driven things he has read. Continuing efforts directed against Prouty’s reputation did at least influence a classic essay describing online narrative management techniques:

https://wikipediaonlineatrocity.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/anatomy-of-an-online-atrocity-wikipedia-gamaliel-and-the-fletcher-prouty-entry/

 

That said, it is further of note that every single one of the bullet points which concludes Griffith’s post are either factually incorrect or represent a gross distortion of the record:

-- He lied about his role in presidential protection.

            Factually incorrect. His statements were entirely consistent with his experience.

-- He lied about the sinister nature of his trip to the South Pole.

             Factually incorrect. See his Letter to Garrison Oct 2, 1985

-- When he was asked to produce the putatively historic notes…

            Gross distortion of the record. The notes exist.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale was involved in the Lumumba and Trujillo murders.

            Factually incorrect.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale hated JFK and wanted him dead.

            Factually incorrect.

- He made the bogus claim that Lansdale wanted to see a huge escalation in the American involvement in South Vietnam.

            Factually incorrect.

-- Without a shred of supporting evidence, he claimed that Lansdale was involved in the assassination plot and was even in Dealey Plaza on the day it happened

            Gross distortion and factually incorrect. Lansdale has been traced to Dallas outer suburb Denton on November 21, 1963.

- He said that Princess Diana may have been assassinated by "the secret team." He said he "would not be surprised" to learn that the secret team had killed Diana.

            Gross distortion.Cherry-picked speculation presented out-of-context.

-- He approvingly quoted Stalin's nutty theory that Churchill poisoned FDR.

            Gross distortion of the record. Prouty cited a published quotation.

-- He associated with known anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers…

            Gross distortion of the record.

- He repeatedly defended the crook and quack Ron Hubbard. He stridently attacked Russell Miller's excellent expose of Hubbard and Scientology Bare-Faced Messiah.

             Gross distortion of the record. “Expert witness” is legally an objective party.

- He publicly praised the cult of Scientology. 

            Factually incorrect.

Excellent fact-checking, Jeff.

This is the kind of commentary that is a necessary response to Swift Boating Vetting propaganda-- i.e, the "Fire Hose of Falsehoods."

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

I have had reason to do a bit of a dive into Prouty’s career and record, which inevitably includes noting the semi-successful efforts of character assassination unleashed in the wake of the “JFK” film. It is a bit shocking to encounter the persistence of these efforts, particularly since Griffith is merely repeating the clearly one-sided and agenda-driven things he has read. Continuing efforts directed against Prouty’s reputation did at least influence a classic essay describing online narrative management techniques:

https://wikipediaonlineatrocity.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/anatomy-of-an-online-atrocity-wikipedia-gamaliel-and-the-fletcher-prouty-entry/

 

That said, it is further of note that every single one of the bullet points which concludes Griffith’s post are either factually incorrect or represent a gross distortion of the record:

-- He lied about his role in presidential protection.

            Factually incorrect. His statements were entirely consistent with his experience.

-- He lied about the sinister nature of his trip to the South Pole.

             Factually incorrect. See his Letter to Garrison Oct 2, 1985

-- When he was asked to produce the putatively historic notes…

            Gross distortion of the record. The notes exist.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale was involved in the Lumumba and Trujillo murders.

            Factually incorrect.

-- He made the slanderous claim that Lansdale hated JFK and wanted him dead.

            Factually incorrect.

- He made the bogus claim that Lansdale wanted to see a huge escalation in the American involvement in South Vietnam.

            Factually incorrect.

-- Without a shred of supporting evidence, he claimed that Lansdale was involved in the assassination plot and was even in Dealey Plaza on the day it happened

            Gross distortion and factually incorrect. Lansdale has been traced to Dallas outer suburb Denton on November 21, 1963.

- He said that Princess Diana may have been assassinated by "the secret team." He said he "would not be surprised" to learn that the secret team had killed Diana.

            Gross distortion.Cherry-picked speculation presented out-of-context.

-- He approvingly quoted Stalin's nutty theory that Churchill poisoned FDR.

            Gross distortion of the record. Prouty cited a published quotation.

-- He associated with known anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers…

            Gross distortion of the record.

- He repeatedly defended the crook and quack Ron Hubbard. He stridently attacked Russell Miller's excellent expose of Hubbard and Scientology Bare-Faced Messiah.

             Gross distortion of the record. “Expert witness” is legally an objective party.

- He publicly praised the cult of Scientology. 

            Factually incorrect.

You either don't know what you're talking about or you're so emotionally committed to believing Prouty that you can't bring yourself to face the facts about him. Every single one of your "factually incorrect" and "gross distortion" responses is wrong. 

Let's focus on three facts that are indisputable:

1. The fact that Prouty was willing to be a character witness for Willis Carto in the IHR trial. Just to refresh everyone's memory, Carto was a proud, unabashed Holocaust denier, anti-Semite, and white supremacist. He founded Liberty Lobby. Liberty Lobby, headed by Carto, sent speakers around the country who argued that the Holocaust never happened--I personally heard one of these bozos speak in Portland, Oregon, when I was in my early 20s. 

2. The fact that Prouty spoke on Liberty Lobby's Radio Free America program numerous times. You know who else spoke on that radio show? People who questioned the Holocaust, bashed Israel, complained about "Jewish influence" in America, etc. You know who two of the other guests were? Fletcher Richman and Frank Flint. Google them. The radio show was finally shut down after vocal protests from Jewish groups and other civil rights groups. 

3. The fact that Prouty was a "featured speaker" at a Liberty Lobby convention in 1990. Prouty urged people to read Liberty Lobby's anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying weekly newspaper The Spotlight: "If anybody really wants to know what's going on in the world today, he should be reading 'Spotlight'" (Spotlight, 10-8-90, p. 14, HOLOCAUST FAQ: Willis Carto & The Institute for Historical Review (2/2) (faqs.org). 

I invite you to read back issues of The Spotlight. You'll find a plethora of articles bashing Israel, bashing Jews, giving favorable coverage of neo-National Socialist groups in Germany, accusing Holocaust victims of fraud, disputing the Holocaust, etc. Guess who placed an ad in the publication? Timothy McVeigh. 

Now, I have just two questions for you: Do you agree that the Holocaust happened? If so, how on God's green Earth can you be caught dead defending a man who (1) served on a Liberty Lobby board, (2) spoke at a Liberty Lobby convention, (3) urged people to read The Spotlight, (4) spoke on Liberty Lobby's radio show numerous times, (5) had one of his books published by a publishing house that disputed the Holocaust, and (6) lined up to be a character witness for Willis Carto, an unashamed Holocaust denier, anti-Semite, and white supremacist? 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

You either don't know what you're talking about or you're so emotionally committed to believing Prouty that you can't bring yourself to face the facts about him. Every single one of your "factually incorrect" and "gross distortion" responses is wrong. 

Let's focus on three facts that are indisputable:

1. The fact that Prouty was willing to be a character witness for Willis Carto in the IHR trial. Just to refresh everyone's memory, Carto was a proud, unabashed Holocaust denier, anti-Semite, and white supremacist. He founded Liberty Lobby. Liberty Lobby, headed by Carto, sent speakers around the country who argued that the Holocaust never happened--I personally heard one of these bozos speak in Portland, Oregon, when I was in my early 20s. 

2. The fact that Prouty spoke on Liberty Lobby's Radio Free America program numerous times. You know who else spoke on that radio show? People who questioned the Holocaust, bashed Israel, complained about "Jewish influence" in America, etc. You know who two of the other guests were? Fletcher Richman and Frank Flint. Google them. The radio show was finally shut down after vocal protests from Jewish groups and other civil rights groups. 

3. The fact that Prouty was a "featured speaker" at a Liberty Lobby convention in 1990. Prouty urged people to read Liberty Lobby's anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying weekly newspaper The Spotlight: "If anybody really wants to know what's going on in the world today, he should be reading 'Spotlight'" (Spotlight, 10-8-90, p. 14, HOLOCAUST FAQ: Willis Carto & The Institute for Historical Review (2/2) (faqs.org). 

I invite you to read back issues of The Spotlight. You'll find a plethora of articles bashing Israel, bashing Jews, giving favorable coverage of neo-National Socialist groups in Germany, accusing Holocaust victims of fraud, disputing the Holocaust, etc. Guess who placed an ad in the publication? Timothy McVeigh. 

Now, I have just two questions for you: Do you agree that the Holocaust happened? If so, how on God's green Earth can you be caught dead defending a man who (1) served on a Liberty Lobby board, (2) spoke at a Liberty Lobby convention, (3) urged people to read The Spotlight, (4) spoke on Liberty Lobby's radio show numerous times, (5) had one of his books published by a publishing house that disputed the Holocaust, and (6) lined up to be a character witness for Willis Carto, an unashamed Holocaust denier, anti-Semite, and white supremacist? 

Once your line of argument reduces to a series of crude associative smears, you are merely waving a flag which signals you have nothing of value or interest to add to the conversation.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

Once your line of argument reduces to a series of crude associative smears, you are merely waving a flag which signals you have nothing of value or interest to add to the conversation.

Yes, Michael Griffith is using all of the old McAdams.edu buzz words to smear CIA whistleblower Fletcher Prouty.

I've read his "Scientology," "Spotlight," and "Liberty Lobby" junk before, on another forum.

Incidentally, didn't the Liberty Lobby win a libel case brought by E. Howard Hunt after Hunt denied being in Dallas on 11/22/63?

[Ron Bulman]

22 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Yes, Michael Griffith is using all of the old McAdams.edu buzz words to smear CIA whistleblower Fletcher Prouty.

I've read his "Scientology," "Spotlight," and "Liberty Lobby" junk before, on another forum.

Incidentally, didn't the Liberty Lobby win a libel case brought by E. Howard Hunt after Hunt denied being in Dallas on 11/22/63?

W, yes Liberty Lobby won against E. Howard Hunt.  They had Mark Lane as their attorney, he discusses the case in Plausible Denial.  The jury concluded not only that Hunt had not been defamed by Liberty Lobby/Spotlight, but, that The CIA had killed John F Kennedy and that Hunt had participated in the assassination.

[Michael Griffith]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Yes, Michael Griffith is using all of the old McAdams.edu buzz words to smear CIA whistleblower Fletcher Prouty.

I've read his "Scientology," "Spotlight," and "Liberty Lobby" junk before, on another forum.

Incidentally, didn't the Liberty Lobby win a libel case brought by E. Howard Hunt after Hunt denied being in Dallas on 11/22/63?

Wow. Just wow. So now you're siding with Liberty Lobby? So, umm, do you believe the Holocaust is a myth? Do you believe there's an international Jewish conspiracy to rule the world? Do you believe that Hitler really wasn't such a bad guy after all?

It's not "junk." Sheesh, how can you say this craziness? It happens to be FACT, DOCUMENTED FACT. BTW, two courts declared Liberty Lobby/The Spotlight to be anti-Semitic.

And, FYI, McAdams was by no means the only person who has pointed out these facts about Prouty. For about the tenth time, most of these facts are documented in Prouty's own writings and speeches, and the remainder are a matter of record. Finally, I again repeat the fact that even Oliver Stone has repudiated Prouty's claims about Lansdale. 

Moderators, are you reading this stuff? Do you realize the implications of defending Liberty Lobby? 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[W. Niederhut]

Michael,

     I'm responding to your absurd, defamatory post in red (below.)

Michael Griffith wrote:

Wow. Just wow. So now you're siding with Liberty Lobby? So, umm, do you believe the Holocaust is a myth? Do you believe there's an international Jewish conspiracy to rule the world? Do you believe that Hitler really wasn't such a bad guy after all?

This is absolutely ridiculous, Michael.   It's John McAdams' old kill-the-messenger  bunk. 

I believe none of the above.  Nor did Col. L. Fletcher Prouty, based on my reading of his books and commentaries.

As for the history of Hitler and his evil empire, I have studied it in great detail over the years, and I could probably teach you some things about that subject.  My father's battalion liberated the N-a-z-i concentration camp in Lohr, Germany.

What exactly was Prouty's relationship with the Liberty Lobby, in your opinion?

Do you also claim that Mark Lane, a Jew, was anti-Semitic for successfully representing the Liberty Lobby in the E. Howard Hunt case?

It's not "junk." Sheesh, how can you say this craziness? It happens to be FACT, DOCUMENTED FACT. BTW, two courts declared Liberty Lobby/The Spotlight to be anti-Semitic.

What does that have to do with Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's distinguished military career, and his important revelations about CIA history, Vietnam, and JFK?  Explain.

And, FYI, McAdams was by no means the only person who has pointed out these facts about Prouty. For about the tenth time, most of these facts are documented in Prouty's own writings and speeches, and the remainder are matter of record. Finally, I again repeat the fact that even Oliver Stone has repudiated Prouty's claims about Lansdale. 

The last time you mentioned Lansdale, you were, evidently, unaware of Prouty's lengthy history of working with Lansdale as a USAF liaison to the the CIA-- indicating that you either didn't read his books, or didn't understand them.  Go back and read the initial posts on this thread, which you have repeatedly ignored.

Moderators, are you reading this stuff? Do you realize the implications of defending Liberty Lobby? 

Moderators, who is "defending the Liberty Lobby" here, as Michael Griffith falsely claims in his deflective posts?

This thread is supposed to be about the career and historical observations of CIA whistleblower Fletcher Prouty.

[Michael Griffith]

27 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Michael,

     I'm responding to your absurd, defamatory post in red (below.)

Michael Griffith wrote:

Wow. Just wow. So now you're siding with Liberty Lobby? So, umm, do you believe the Holocaust is a myth? Do you believe there's an international Jewish conspiracy to rule the world? Do you believe that Hitler really wasn't such a bad guy after all?

This is absolutely ridiculous, Michael.   It's John McAdams' old kill-the-messenger  bunk. 

I believe none of the above.  Nor did Col. L. Fletcher Prouty, based on my reading of his books and commentaries.

As for the history of Hitler and his evil empire, I have studied it in great detail over the years, and I could probably teach you some things about that subject.  My father's battalion liberated the N-a-z-i concentration camp in Lohr, Germany.

What exactly was Prouty's relationship with the Liberty Lobby, in your opinion?

Do you also claim that Mark Lane, a Jew, was anti-Semitic for successfully representing the Liberty Lobby in the E. Howard Hunt case?

It's not "junk." Sheesh, how can you say this craziness? It happens to be FACT, DOCUMENTED FACT. BTW, two courts declared Liberty Lobby/The Spotlight to be anti-Semitic.

What does that have to do with Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's distinguished military career, and his important revelations about CIA history, Vietnam, and JFK?  Explain.

And, FYI, McAdams was by no means the only person who has pointed out these facts about Prouty. For about the tenth time, most of these facts are documented in Prouty's own writings and speeches, and the remainder are matter of record. Finally, I again repeat the fact that even Oliver Stone has repudiated Prouty's claims about Lansdale. 

The last time you mentioned Lansdale, you were, evidently, unaware of Prouty's lengthy history of working with Lansdale as a USAF liaison to the the CIA-- indicating that you either didn't read his books, or didn't understand them.  Go back and read the initial posts on this thread, which you have repeatedly ignored.

Moderators, are you reading this stuff? Do you realize the implications of defending Liberty Lobby? 

Moderators, who is "defending the Liberty Lobby" here, as Michael Griffith falsely claims in his deflective posts?

This thread is supposed to be about the career and historical observations of CIA whistleblower Fletcher Prouty.

Oh, no, no, buddy. You're not gonna wiggle out of this one with ducking and dodging and deflection. 

In response to my noting the indisputable fact that Liberty Lobby was an anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying group, and that Prouty spoke at one of their conferences, appeared several times on their radio show, recommended their weekly newspaper, and lined up to testify as a character witness for Carto, you dismissed it all as "junk" and then asked,

          "Incidentally, didn't the Liberty Lobby win a libel case brought by E. Howard Hunt after Hunt denied being in Dallas on 11/22/63?"

One could logically infer that you were implying that Liberty Lobby wasn't all that bad since they defeated Hunt's libel suit against them. At the very least, you said nothing about Liberty Lobby's long record of nutty, obscene anti-Semitism, white supremacy, and Holocaust denial.

You have done nothing but summarily dismiss the facts about Prouty's sleazy relationship with Liberty Lobby and Carto, not to mention his embarrassing defense of Scientology and Hubbard. 

I ask you again: Do you believe the Holocaust is a myth? Do you believe there's an international Jewish conspiracy to rule the world? Do you believe that Hitler really wasn't such a bad guy after all? I ask these questions because Liberty Lobby believed all of these things and Prouty had a long and extensive association with the group.

It won't work to appeal to Mark Lane's ethnicity. Lane was in no sense a practicing Jew and was Jewish by birth only. If you know anything about Mark Lane, you should know this. Furthermore, he defended Liberty Lobby in court because that case had nothing to do with Liberty Lobby's undisputed record of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Lane made it clear that he found Liberty Lobby distasteful. So that won't work. 

Prouty, on the other hand, again, spoke at one of their conferences, recommended their newspaper, appeared on their radio show several times, served on one of their boards, and lined up to be a character witness for their founder in the IHR trial. 

If you are unwilling to repudiate Prouty in spite of these documented facts, then the question logically and naturally arises as to whether or not you harbor some sympathy for Liberty Lobby's views or whether you think Liberty Lobby wasn't really so bad. 

Imagine if Prouty had had with Hitler the same kind of relationship he had with Liberty Lobby, and imagine if someone dismissed this evidence as "junk" and then asked, "Incidentally, didn't Hitler win a libel case that was brought against him?" What would you think about that person?

Edited April 13, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[W. Niederhut]

       From what I gather, it appears that the CIA propagandists have used Prouty's late life association with people (and publishers) affiliated with the Liberty Lobby as a means of discrediting Prouty's damning, historic revelations about the CIA, Vietnam, and the JFK assassination.

       Michael Griffith is simply walking in their footsteps.

       FWIW, here's the Wiki entry on Prouty's late life contacts with the Liberty Lobby. (Red italics mine.)

       If anything, these Wiki articles are usually aggressively edited by the CIA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Fletcher_Prouty

Antisemitic association

Prouty was a featured speaker at the 1990 convention of the Liberty Lobby.^[27] Prouty was also named to the advisory board for the Lobby's Populist Action Committee. Prouty also sold the reprint rights for The Secret Team of the Noontide Press, the publishing arm for the Institute for Historical Review, a holocaust denial organization.^[28][27]

Prouty denied having known of the racist and antisemitic associations of the Lobby, noted that he also spoke at a ceremony at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and assured Oliver Stone "... that he was neither a racist nor an anti-Semite... but merely a writer in need of a platform." In a response to an article about Prouty in Esquire, which he labeled a "character assassination," Stone lamented Prouty's association with the Liberty Lobby but questioned its relevance to Prouty's reliability as a source.^[29] In an obituary in The Guardian, Michael Carlson wrote that "[a]lthough Prouty himself never espoused such [anti-semitic] beliefs, the connection enabled critics to dismiss his later writings."^[1]

Edited April 13, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Do you also claim that Mark Lane, a Jew, was anti-Semitic for successfully representing the Liberty Lobby in the E. Howard Hunt case?

 

Touché! That alone debunks most of Michael's claims regarding Prouty and the anti-sematic element of Liberty Lobby.

BTW, it should be noted that the Liberty Lobby never described itself as being anti-sematic, and in fact denied being so. As I alluded to in my prior sentence, there was an anti-sematic element in the Liberty Lobby. It is a ridiculous notion that Prouty's association with Liberty Lobby means that he therefore had ties to, or was sympathetic with, its anti-sematic element.

My thanks go to William and Jeff for exposing Michael's anti-Prouty claims for what they are.

 

[Michael Griffith]

Regarding the absurd argument that we can dismiss the evidence against Prouty because John McAdams repeated most of it, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) notes that Prouty appeared on Liberty Lobby's radio show Radio Free America 10 times:

          The roster of guests, taken from promotional notices, who appeared on Liberty Lobby's radio programs "Radio Free America" or "Editor's Roundtable" in a six-year period, between 1990-1995, gives an idea of the variety and breadth of Carto's constituency. A sampling includes: . . . .

          Col. L. Fletcher Prouty, now-deceased conspiracy theorist and longtime Liberty Lobby associate; reported consultant on Oliver Stone's film "JFK." (7/6/91, 12/18/91, 1/10/92, 11/17/92, 6/24/93, 3/9/94, 3/12/94, 11/29/94, 4/13/95, 6/27/95) (Willis-Carto-Extremism-in-America.pdf (adl.org)

Here are some of the other "guests" who appeared on the show, as listed in the ADL article:

James Warner, organizer for George Lincoln Rockwell's American National Socialist Party in the 1960s and longtime Louisiana-based Identity leader. (11/13/91)

Fred Leuchter, who claimed that the Auschwitz gas chambers were postwar hoaxes; his findings have become a standard text in the Holocaust-denial movement. (2/15/91, 12/23/91)

Deirdre Fields, wife of California neo-National Socialist Joe Fields and champion of South African apartheid (she is a South African native), focused on the "Jewish influence" in South Africa. (10/28/91, 2/20/92, 3/19/92, 4/20/93, 12/10/93)

Ernst Zundel, one of the leading Holocaust deniers and a major distributor of National Socialist and neo-National Socialist propaganda and memorabilia. (4/18/91, 9/9/92)

Are you kidding me?

I repeat, yet again, that Fletcher Prouty spoke at a Liberty Lobby conference, recommended their newspaper, sat on one of their boards, appeared on their radio show many times, and lined up to testify as a character witness for Carto in the IHR trial. 

I might add that when Prouty spoke at the Liberty Lobby convention, he presented a seminar titled "Who Is the Enemy" that blamed the high price of oil on the High Cabal's plot to shut down oil pipelines deliberately in the Middle East. "Why?" he asked. He then gave the answer:

          "Because of the Israelis. That is their business on behalf of the oil companies. That’s why they get $3 billion a year from the U.S. taxpayer."

Quote

BTW, it should be noted that the Liberty Lobby never described itself as being anti-sematic, and in fact denied being so. As I alluded to in my prior sentence, there was an anti-sematic element in the Liberty Lobby. It is a ridiculous notion that Prouty's association with Liberty Lobby means that he therefore had ties to, or was sympathetic with, its anti-sematic element.

This is NUTS. Are you just going to ignore the evidence I've presented about the group?

Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic from top to bottom. The ADL identified them as anti-Semitic. Two courts of law found them to be anti-Semitic. They sponsored speakers who went around the country claiming that the Holocaust was a myth. They published a newspaper and ran a radio show that repeatedly denied the Holocaust and attacked Jews. 

And you're a moderator???

No honest, rational person can deny that Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic once they've examined even just part of the evidence of this fact. Read and learn:

Liberty Lobby - Wikipedia

Willis Carto | Southern Poverty Law Center (splcenter.org)

SHEDDING LIGHT ON LIBERTY LOBBY (greensboro.com)

RIGHT-WOOS-LEFT-Berlet-Report.pdf (politicalresearch.org)

Holocaust Denial: Key Dates | Holocaust Encyclopedia (ushmm.org) (see the entry for Liberty Lobby)

Knew Liberty Lobby Was Anti-Jewish, Richardson Says - The Washington Post

ADL Reports That Liberty Lobby Escalates Anti-semitic Campaign - Jewish Telegraphic Agency (jta.org)

Carto and the Liberty Lobby (hartford-hwp.com)

Edited April 13, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Paul Brancato]

10 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

       From what I gather, it appears that the CIA propagandists have used Prouty's late life association with people (and publishers) affiliated with the Liberty Lobby as a means of discrediting Prouty's damning, historic revelations about the CIA, Vietnam, and the JFK assassination.

       Michael Griffith is simply walking in their footsteps.

       FWIW, here's the Wiki entry on Prouty's late life contacts with the Liberty Lobby. (Red italics mine.)

       If anything, these Wiki articles are usually aggressively edited by the CIA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Fletcher_Prouty

Antisemitic association

Prouty was a featured speaker at the 1990 convention of the Liberty Lobby.^[27] Prouty was also named to the advisory board for the Lobby's Populist Action Committee. Prouty also sold the reprint rights for The Secret Team of the Noontide Press, the publishing arm for the Institute for Historical Review, a holocaust denial organization.^[28][27]

Prouty denied having known of the racist and antisemitic associations of the Lobby, noted that he also spoke at a ceremony at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and assured Oliver Stone "... that he was neither a racist nor an anti-Semite... but merely a writer in need of a platform."^] In a response to an article about Prouty in Esquire, which he labeled a "character assassination," Stone lamented Prouty's association with the Liberty Lobby but questioned its relevance to Prouty's reliability as a source.^[29] In an obituary in The Guardian, Michael Carlson wrote that "[a]lthough Prouty himself never espoused such [anti-semitic] beliefs, the connection enabled critics to dismiss his later writings."^[1]

William - and Michael - That seems like a very good summary, taking both sides into account. Stone’s take is very relevant. No one is taking Liberty Lobby’s position on the Holocaust or Jews as fact. We are all disgusted by it. But deducing that therefore Prouty doesn’t know what he’s talking about is kinda, just a little bit, like reducing RFK jr to an anti vaccine headline. Their whole exemplary careers reduced to an episode of bad judgement, or something similar. But it is fair game to wonder why Prouty was oblivious to the real Willa Carto and his agenda, or for that matter  the real L Ron Hubbard. He showed very poor judgement in his later years at the very least. His ‘sins’ are way worse than RFK Jr in my opinion. 
Prouty’s claims about Lansdale should be proved or disproved on their own merit. Shooting the messenger isn’t the best way to dismiss someone’s arguments. 

[Michael Griffith]

2 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

William - and Michael - That seems like a very good summary, taking both sides into account. Stone’s take is very relevant. No one is taking Liberty Lobby’s position on the Holocaust or Jews as fact. We are all disgusted by it. But deducing that therefore Prouty doesn’t know what he’s talking about is kinda, just a little bit, like reducing RFK jr to an anti vaccine headline. Their whole exemplary careers reduced to an episode of bad judgement, or something similar. But it is fair game to wonder why Prouty was oblivious to the real Willa Carto and his agenda, or for that matter  the real L Ron Hubbard. He showed very poor judgement in his later years at the very least. His ‘sins’ are way worse than RFK Jr in my opinion. 
Prouty’s claims about Lansdale should be proved or disproved on their own merit. Shooting the messenger isn’t the best way to dismiss someone’s arguments. 

So, in other words, it's no big deal that Prouty spoke at a Liberty Lobby convention (and blamed the Israelis for the high cost of oil in his speech), recommended Liberty Lobby's newspaper, sat on one of their boards, appeared as a guest on their radio show many times, and lined up to testify as a character witness for their Holocaust-denying racist founder. These things are no big deal? We shouldn't dismiss him as a source "just because" he did these things? 

Just as worse, or perhaps more so, now we have a couple of folks denying that Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic, in spite of the literal mountain of evidence that it was, and that it denied the Holocaust. I provided a number of links on this evidence in a previous reply. Such links could be multiplied many times over. It is obscene and absurd to deny that Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic and said the Holocaust was a myth.

You people had better hope that nobody reports this forum to the ADL, the SPLC, Source Watch, or the DOJ. You are playing with fire. This is serious stuff. 

[Sandy Larsen]

52 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Sandy said:

Quote

BTW, it should be noted that the Liberty Lobby never described itself as being anti-sematic, and in fact denied being so. As I alluded to in my prior sentence, there was an anti-sematic element in the Liberty Lobby. It is a ridiculous notion that Prouty's association with Liberty Lobby means that he therefore had ties to, or was sympathetic with, its anti-sematic element.

52 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

This is NUTS. Are you just going to ignore the evidence I've presented about the group?

Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic from top to bottom. The ADL identified them as anti-Semitic. Two courts of law found them to be anti-Semitic. They sponsored speakers who went around the country claiming that the Holocaust was a myth. They published a newspaper and ran a radio show that repeatedly denied the Holocaust and attacked Jews. 

 

Consider this analogy: A large percentage of Republicans are Trump supporters, those who deny the 2020 election of Joe Biden and who anti-democratically tried to keep Trump in power. When Mitt Romney gives speeches at Republican events, are you going to say he has thereby been discredited because of that? Why not? That's precisely what you've done in the case of Liberty Lobby and Fletcher Prouty!