Why Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's Critics Are Wrong

[Joe Bauer]

How does one consider E. Howard Hunt's near-end-of-life claim ( tape recorded by his son St. John Hunt) where he describes the JFKA as "the Big Event" and details his participation in it as "a benchwarmer" and then describes a mobile- safe house traveling "team" scenario that does match Marita Lorenz story in certain ways?

Same characters involved such as Frank Sturgis.

For those jurors on Hunt's libel trial jury who dismissed Lane's proposition of Hunt's involvement in the JFKA I wonder if Hunt's widely available taped ( confessional? ) tale made them pause a bit and reconsider whether Hunt truly was involved?

Hunt's "Big Event" story is always met with MSM ignoring silence. As if it is so preposterous it isn't even worth mentioning or discussion. Same with Lorenz's tale?

Did anyone ever come up with the code word term "Big Event" regards the JFKA before Hunt?

Did anyone before Hunt ever link or even mention "Cord Meyer" as a possible suspect in the planning of the JFKA?

CIA covert agent Frank ( Fiorini ) Sturgis did not deny Lorenz gun running trip to Dallas story just days before 11,22,1963 when he was asked about it on the national TV shown Geraldo Rivera show.

So what was "The Big Lie?"

Hunt saying he was back in Virginia/DC the day of the JFKA?

Or was he in some way a participant in the "mobile affair " as he described in his "Big Event" tale?

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

@Michael Griffith 

Is it possible for Fletcher Prouty to be correct on the JFKA and incorrect on another issue? I think so.
 

We tend to ever increasingly fall into the emotional thinking, attacking the man as opposed to specifically what they have said, the matter in contention. 
 

I have noticed in general that you have an almost allergic reaction when anything Jewish or Israeli is scrutinised. This IMO is because you have a strong bias. We can all recognise the atrocities of WW2, feel compassion, sadness and feel unanimously that they should never be repeated. That doesn’t give any faith, religion, culture, or country, a pass, or indemnity against criticism. Some may disagree. 
 

I do see the trope about a grand Jewish conspiracy being propagated online, almost exclusively by the ill educated. What most people fail to realise is that AshkeNational Socialist Jews score highest in IQ testing, after that in second place it is Sephardic Jews, and then in third place it is East Asians. It stands to logical reasoning that more intelligent people will ultimately occupy more positions of power or be over-represented in careers where tremendous competency is required. For example; we can all see that Jewish people are tremendously over-represented in the ranks of Nobel Prize winners.  Of course, it’s a little more complex than this and a multi-varied analysis would likely reveal some other factors. There doesn’t need to be a grand conspiracy, only hierarchies of competence. 

[Norman T. Field]

3 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

How does one consider E. Howard Hunt's near-end-of-life claim ( tape recorded by his son St. John Hunt) where he describes the JFKA as "the Big Event" and details his participation in it as "a benchwarmer" and then describes a mobile- safe house traveling "team" scenario that does match Marita Lorenz story in certain ways?

Same characters involved such as Frank Sturgis.

For those jurors on Hunt's libel trial jury who dismissed Lane's proposition of Hunt's involvement in the JFKA I wonder if Hunt's widely available taped ( confessional? ) tale made them pause a bit and reconsider whether Hunt truly was involved?

Hunt's "Big Event" story is always met with MSM ignoring silence. As if it is so preposterous it isn't even worth mentioning or discussion. Same with Lorenz's tale?

Did anyone ever come up with the code word term "Big Event" regards the JFKA before Hunt?

Did anyone before Hunt ever link or even mention "Cord Meyer" as a possible suspect in the planning of the JFKA?

CIA covert agent Frank ( Fiorini ) Sturgis did not deny Lorenz gun running trip to Dallas story just days before 11,22,1963 when he was asked about it on the national TV shown Geraldo Rivera show.

So what was "The Big Lie?"

Hunt saying he was back in Virginia/DC the day of the JFKA?

Or was he in some way a participant in the "mobile affair" as he described in his "Big Event" tale?

 

 

One of the so called tramps bears an amazing resemblance to E. Howard Hunt, including the big ears that were later surgically altered to be less prominent. Noted JFKA xxxx James Files is among those who have claimed that Hunt was the Dallas paymaster for their work. 

[Norman T. Field]

software substituted 'xxx' for the description of one who states routinely states falsehoods. 

[Sandy Larsen]

26 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Of course Liberty Lobby would not admit they were anti-Semitic!

 

Then you should agree that it is entirely possible that Fletcher Prouty did not know that Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic. Just as he said.

I contend that Prouty's ties with Liberty Lobby have to do with the fact that 1) Willis Carto was a conspiracy theorist, interested in Prouty's work, 2) who offered to publish Prouty's work, which then led to 3) a thankful Prouty helping Carto out in return.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

22 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

How does one consider E. Howard Hunt's near-end-of-life claim....

 

Wrong thread, Joe,

 

[Joe Bauer]

Does Fletcher Prouty's association with Liberty Lobby destroy his entire JFKA claims credibility 100%?

Should it?

It's being credibly asserted here that Prouty thrust himself into some pretty bad 

company in his later years.

Still, no one here can deny his remarkable, high achieving, highest position military career and the respect he had from his high command peers during that time.

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Then you should agree that it is entirely possible that Fletcher Prouty did not know that Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic. Just as he said.

I contend that Prouty's ties with Liberty Lobby have to do with the fact that 1) Willis Carto was a conspiracy theorist, interested in Prouty's work, 2) who offered to publish Prouty's work, which then led to 3) a thankful Prouty helping Carto out in return.

 

I think you make a good point here Sandy.

[Joe Bauer]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Wrong thread, Joe,

 

Sandy, one post here goes into the Hunt/Lane libel trial as it pertained to Liberty Lobby history and Prouty's alignment with them later on.

That poster described how the jurors who threw Hunt's lawsuit and previous award out stated they did so not because of Lane's claim of Hunt's possible JFKA involvement but that the publication did not publish their Hunt article out of malice.

A negative take on Liberty Lobby and Prouty's association with them worth debating imo.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Jeff Carter]

30 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Then you should agree that it is entirely possible that Fletcher Prouty did not know that Liberty Lobby was anti-Semitic. Just as he said.

I contend that Prouty's ties with Liberty Lobby have to do with the fact that 1) Willis Carto was a conspiracy theorist, interested in Prouty's work, 2) who offered to publish Prouty's work, which then led to 3) a thankful Prouty helping Carto out in return.

 

I would agree with this perspective, and would add that the Liberty Lobby was barely mentioned at all by Prouty's critic here in his first run of posts, and then suddenly blew up to maximalist proportions over the course of a few hours. That is, I don't get the vibe of someone who has carefully worked through the details and is presenting a thorough reasoned analysis. He started with a highly biased opinion, received some pushback, and went searching for anything else that could be used as a pretext.

[Sandy Larsen]

52 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Wrong thread, Joe,

Sandy, one post here goes into the Hunt/Lane libel trial as it pertained to Liberty Lobby history and Prouty's alignment with them later on.

 

Sorry Joe, my bad.

 

[Michael Griffith]

19 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So if forum member and attorney Lawrence Schnapf sits down with Tucker Carlson for an interview, are you going to group him with all the crazy people Tucker has on as guests?

I don't think you should do so. But it is because of people who think like you do that I warned against Lawrence appearing on the show. That people against Lawrence's cause will use the interview against him, just like you are using Prouty's association with Liberty Lobby against him.

Thank goodness we have level-headed, rational people who can see past this associative nonsense.

Okay, so you're another ultra-liberal who is determined to believe Prouty no matter what, even to the absurd point of comparing Liberty Lobby's radio show with Tucker Carlson's TV show, and even if it means ignoring the fact that Prouty's relationship with Liberty Lobby went far beyond mere casual/fleeting association.

Now, I've watched Tucker's show for many years. He's never had anyone on his show who was as extreme and fringe as some of the people who were welcomed and lauded on Liberty Lobby's radio show. Tucker has had a few radical guests on his show, but he invited them in order to challenge/expose them, not because he agreed with them. It is just pathetic that you would compare Tucker's show with Liberty Lobby's show.

You really need to stop with your phony "associative nonsense" argument. There is casual and fleeting association and there is close and prolonged association. Any honest adult understands the difference.

Prouty's relationship with Liberty Lobby and the IHR was not only close and prolonged, but Prouty went beyond mere association. Prouty praised Carto and Marcellus. He said he was "proud" and "privileged" to have the Holocaust-denying IHR republish his book. He sat on one of Liberty Lobby's boards (despite his false denials to the contrary). He lined up to serve as a character witness for Carto when the IHR sued him for embezzlement (no honor among thieves, I guess). He recommended that people read Liberty Lobby's newspaper The Spotlight, which carried literally hundreds of articles that questioned the Holocaust, attacked Jews, placed all the blame for the Arab-Israeli conflict on Israel, minimized Hitler's crimes, peddled white supremacy, posited an international Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, etc., etc. And he didn't just appear on Liberty Lobby's radio show once or twice but 10 times over a four-year period.

And this is not to even mention Prouty's other bizarre and embarrassing claims, such as his slanderous nonsense about Lansdale (which even Oliver Stone has repudiated), his scurrilous defense of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard, his nutty tale about JCS and intelligence involvement in the Jonestown mass suicide, his nutjob speculation about Princess Diana's death, his whacky speculation about Churchill poisoning FDR, his failure to produce his putatively historic notes when the ARRB asked for them, his bogus tale about a "stand down" call from the 112th MI Group, his curious claim that oil is not a fossil fuel but that oil companies want us to believe it is, his bogus suggestion that he was sent to the South Pole to help strip JFK of security (JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy, pp. 283-285)--a claim that he back-peddled from with the ARRB, and his bogus claims about the F-16 vs. the MiG-25 (not what you'd expect from a competent intelligence officer), etc., etc.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

       I want to point out to Kirk, Ron, Sandy, Paul, and the forum that Michael Griffith has repeatedly highjacked this thread about Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's distinguished military career and his ground breaking revelations about CIA history, (in The Secret Team and JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam) in order to shift the focus to the Liberty Lobby.

      Michael has deployed the same old CIA/John McAdams propaganda tricks that have been used for the past 30 years to discredit Prouty's rare insights into CIA history, Vietnam, and the JFK assassination.

      As Gerry Patrick Hemming told Greg Burnham, (see the definitive history posts at the top of this thread) Fletcher Prouty was the only Deep State insider who ever came forward to spill the beans about CIA black ops and their putative relationship to the JFK assassination and Vietnam.

     So, it's understandable that the CIA and U.S. military establishment has put a great deal of effort into trying to smear and discredit Prouty's revelations.

     I will also point out that Michael Griffith has repeatedly attacked James DiEugenio's historigraphy about JFK's decision to get out of Vietnam in 1963.  Griffith even claimed recently that DiEugenio is "out of his depth on Vietnam."

     Here is Michael Griffith's Education Forum bio, which includes a stint at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California.

Michael T. Griffith holds a Master’s degree in Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a Bachelor’s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two Associate in Applied Science degrees from the Community College of the Air Force.  He also holds an Advanced Certificate of Civil War Studies and a Certificate of Civil War Studies from Carroll College.  He is a graduate in Arabic and Hebrew of the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training School in San Angelo, Texas.  In addition, he has completed Advanced Hebrew programs at Haifa University in Israel and at the Spiro Institute in London, England.  He is the author of five books on Mormonism and ancient texts, including How Firm A Foundation, A Ready Reply, and One Lord, One Faith.  He is also the author of a book on the JFK assassination titled Compelling Evidence (JFK Lancer, 1996), and of a book on the Pearl Harbor attack titled The Real Infamy of Pearl Harbor (2021).

 

    

Michael,

      Instead of continuing to highjack this thread with your John McAdams-type, defamatory nonsense about Prouty, how about answering a few questions for us?

     Who paid for your stint at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California?  Was it part of your military service in the USAF?

     What do you do for a living in McLean, Virginia, when you're not posting lengthy diatribes on the Education Forum denying that JFK intended to get out of Vietnam in 1963, and falsely impugning Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's reputation?

     Also, I haven't visited the area for many years, but isn't McLean close to Langley?

[Mark Knight]

From a couple of pages back, I object to Mr. Griffith's inference that opposition to US subsidies to the NATION of Israel makes one "anti-semitic." 

How many nations does the US subsidize at the per-capita level of the NATION of Israel?

Can anyone find and post that number?

Apparently, Mr. Griffith strongly implies that one is REQUIRED to practice Judaism in order to be a citizen of the NATION of Israel. I wasn't aware of that requirement. But it MUST be a requirement in order for questioning subsidies to the NATION of Israel to constitute anti-semitism.

Wikipedia states that non-Jewish persons can become citizens of the NATION of Israel by completing residency requirements, renouncing citizenship elsewhere, and demonstrating a knowledge of the Hebrew language.

Yes, I'm claiming that Mr. Griffith's logic is faulty.

[Jeff Carter]

11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Surely didn’t know Prouty said that about the JCS and Jonestown. Not to derail too much, my reading of Jim Jones is that he was connected to US Intel in some way. But that’s a stretch.

Prouty’s source for the information re: Jonestown was an After-Action Report written for the Joint Chiefs which included a detailed chronology.

“Guyana Operations,” After-Action Report, 18-27 November, 1978, prepared by the Special Study Group, Operations Directorate, USMC Directorate, Joint Chiefs of Staff

This report is also referred in an article linked below by the respected journalist Jim Hougan, who did several pieces on Jonestown.     https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=16572#_ftn24