LBJ After JFK: The First 72 Hours

[Douglas Caddy]

 

LBJ After JFK: The First 72 Hours - by Mike Swanson (substack.com)

[Michael Griffith]

When you post a link, it would be helpful if you would provide a brief summary of the contents. 

Anyway, I find it curious and puzzling that LBJ cancelled the coup attempt in Cuba that JFK had scheduled for early December, even though Bobby urged LBJ to let the coup attempt proceed as scheduled.

For many years, I believed that the plotters intended to use the assassination as an excuse to carry out an invasion of Cuba. But, when I learned that JFK had approved a carefully planned and credible coup attempt against Castro for early December and that LBJ cancelled it over Bobby's objections, I had to reassess my thinking. 

[David Boylan]

Michael,

Coup attempt? Can you shed some light on this?

[Michael Griffith]

1 minute ago, David Boylan said:

Michael,

Coup attempt? Can you shed some light on this?

Yes, JFK's scheduled early December coup attempt is discussed in detail in investigative journalist Lamar Waldron's 2013 book The Hidden History of the JFK Assassination (pp. 206-382, 401-475).

[Larry Hancock]

Numerous researchers including Jim D and myself have pretty thoroughly deconstructed Lamar's mistaken premise of a December coup - Lamar confused the AMWORLD preparations as being involved with his speculative Almeida coup (which was separately refuted when research showed Almeida was not even in Cuba on Lamar's dates).  Miscellaneous documents which Lamar had pulled into the story can now be shown simply  to have been part of other new CIA initiatives, which did relate to the hope of creating a the context of a coup but other documents now reveal that Castro's intelligence had compromised almost all the on island Cubans who the CIA was trying to involve and Castro let them know he was watching them. 

All of the above, the real picture of what was going on with the administration's efforts against Cuba in 1963 are discussed in some detail in Tipping Point, and clearly although a coup was talked about even the most basic elements to support it via AMWORLD did not go into play until late Spring 64....boats, weapons, people etc.  And those were not canceled by LBJ, as it turned out the whole concept was so weak and Artime such a poor leader that AMWORLD foundered even after it did launch (details in Shadow Warfare).

All of the issues with Lamar's Almeida coup concept were shared directly with him by Stu Wexler, myself and others but of course the book was already in print; a planned documentary based on it did not occur.

Its another of those pieces of JFK research which just did not hold up under examination and review but unfortunately those sorts of things never really go away.

[Gerry Down]

6 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Numerous researchers including Jim D and myself have pretty thoroughly deconstructed Lamar's mistaken premise of a December coup - Lamar confused the AMWORLD preparations as being involved with his speculative Almeida coup (which was separately refuted when research showed Almeida was not even in Cuba on Lamar's dates).  Miscellaneous documents which Lamar had pulled into the story can now be shown simply  to have been part of other new CIA initiatives, which did relate to the hope of creating a the context of a coup but other documents now reveal that Castro's intelligence had compromised almost all the on island Cubans who the CIA was trying to involve and Castro let them know he was watching them. 

All of the above, the real picture of what was going on with the administration's efforts against Cuba in 1963 are discussed in some detail in Tipping Point, and clearly although a coup was talked about even the most basic elements to support it via AMWORLD did not go into play until late Spring 64....boats, weapons, people etc.  And those were not canceled by LBJ, as it turned out the whole concept was so weak and Artime such a poor leader that AMWORLD foundered even after it did launch (details in Shadow Warfare).

All of the issues with Lamar's Almeida coup concept were shared directly with him by Stu Wexler, myself and others but of course the book was already in print; a planned documentary based on it did not occur.

Its another of those pieces of JFK research which just did not hold up under examination and review but unfortunately those sorts of things never really go away.

The CIA were arranging in Nov 1963 for Cubela to kill Castro with a poison pen. What was the rest of the plan once Castro was dead?

That plan seemed to involve a military coup. So I'm presuming the coup would be led initially by Cubela, and Artime and his men would come over on what few boats AMWORLD had at that point. Then Cubela and Artime would become the new political leaders of Cuba. 

Was Artime coming over on what few boats they had going to be a symbolic "invasion", a second BOP even though it was more symbolic than a real invasion (Cubela would have done most of the overthrowing by the time Artime got there)?

Was that the CIAs game plan do you think in giving Cubela the poison pen?

[Larry Hancock]

Gerry, the CIA made contact with Cuebela as part of it many efforts intended to stimulate a coup; he brought up the necessity of killing Castro for a coup to proceed as did virtually everyone else they contacted - this is all documented in detail in CIA reports. Cubela asked for a rifle, then the pen was brought up and to maintain contact with him they were going to give him what he wanted in hopes something would jell over time.  Cuebela was just one of dozens of things SAS and WAVE were throwing against the wall in 1963, none of them especially well coordinated...Commando Mambesis was another, totally run by wave and in direct conflict with what Artime and separately Rey were doing - separate from Cuebela as well.

All I can do is to refer you to my research and writing as I did above, I'm happy answer questions but don't really have the time to start from scratch given what I've already written and made available....not trying to be difficult but all this has been discussed many times before, even here and by others than myself,  Jim D has posted on Lamar and his book in the forum numerous times.

[Gerry Down]

12 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Gerry, the CIA made contact with Cuebela as part of it many efforts intended to stimulate a coup; he brought up the necessity of killing Castro for a coup to proceed as did virtually everyone else they contacted - this is all documented in detail in CIA reports. Cubela asked for a rifle, then the pen was brought up and to maintain contact with him they were going to give him what he wanted in hopes something would jell over time.  Cuebela was just one of dozens of things SAS and WAVE were throwing against the wall in 1963, none of them especially well coordinated...Commando Mambesis was another, totally run by wave and in direct conflict with what Artime and separately Rey were doing - separate from Cuebela as well.

All I can do is to refer you to my research and writing as I did above, I'm happy answer questions but don't really have the time to start from scratch given what I've already written and made available....not trying to be difficult but all this has been discussed many times before, even here and by others than myself,  Jim D has posted on Lamar and his book in the forum numerous times.

No problem. Must still make my way through most of your books which will help in this regard.

I was just wondering what the plan was once the intended coup got going on the island. The last thing the CIA would want would be for the coup to collapse. I had been thinking that JFK might give the go-ahead for the US military to prop it up and this is what the contingency invasion plans Lamar writes in his book were about. Send over a few AMWORLD boats with Artime on them to make it look like the Cuban exiles were launching a second invasion but the US military would be waiting in the wings to provide the real muscle to make sure the coup held.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Ron Bulman]

I've not read Hidden History at least in part because my copy of Ultimate Sacrifice is buried in a box of books to be disposed of.  So, no one will ever read at least that copy of that trash.  Hence, why I wouldn't waste my money or time on any of his other junk.

[Larry Hancock]

Gerry, start with this link below and I think it would help a good deal with what was actually in play in 1963:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Tipping_Point_Part1.html

But you are not far off on the overall strategy.  In 1963, as part of the switchback program JFK had ordered to move covert military action from the CIA to the military, he had directed the Joint Chiefs to prepare a contingency plan for responding to a coup in Cuba (this plan was in fact part of what Lamar writes about).  However the JCS and CINCATLANTIC, who was given the task of taking on that role, were still in the development phase on the plan and if you take a look  you find no special naval, air or ground forces had been designated for such a role and certainly none had been assembled or staged for action in December 1963.

Planning yes, ideally one or a combination of the varous CIA coup efforts might have at some point triggered an internal uprising or at least some assassinations inside Cuba, ideally then Artime with an operational AMWORLD group could have gone into Cuba and appealed for America support, triggering the American military contingency plan  (all of this would have been a repeat of the original Cuba Project plan originally approved by Eisenhower, even the players like Artime). 

The problem for Lamar's book is that all those elements were being discussed, but in reality had were only just beginning in the fall of 1963 (Artime  only began to purchase equipment and bring on volunteers as of November/December 1963 - he had no resources for the coup Lamar describes as of December). 

Its a trap all of us can fall into, with newer research and materials presenting a fuller story than what was originally visible from bits and pieces.  

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Larry Hancock

[Gerry Down]

Lamar was trying to shoehorn AMWORLD into being a bigger enterprise in the fall of 1963 than it really was. Not good history. Gotta stick to the facts.

[Douglas Caddy]

 

Mr. Swanson in his first segment focuses on the party at the Murchison mansion in Dallas on November 21, 1963. He states based on LBJ's daily diary collection, "LBJ got to his [Forth Worth hotel] room at 11:30. He wasn’t in Dallas that night, so he couldn’t have been at an “assassination party” in that city on November 21, 1963." Apparently, Mr. Swanson believes that if LBJ were at the party, he would have entered the event in his daily diary. Really?  Let's examine his thesis. The distance beteem Fort Worth and Dallas is 32.5 miles. Today it takes 36 minutes to drive it. The Dallas-Fort Worth population in 1963 was 1.6 million. Today it is 6.5 million. Driving from Fort Worth to Dallas in 1963 would have been quicker than today. 

 

In 1993 Lyle Sardie released his historical video, LBJ: A Closer Look, in which he interviews key persons in Texas who knew about the real LBJ, including myself in my capacity as attorney for Billie Sol Estes when he sought immunity in 1984 from the U.S. Department of Justice to tell what he knew about LBJ's crimes. I have a copy of the original VHS video in which Madeline Brown, LBJ's mistress, is interviewed. She says that LBJ arrived late at the party and immediately went into a room for a meeting with several of the men at the party. She describes how he looked after he came out when he told her, "After tomorrow, those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's no threat. That's a promise." This appears at the end of part 7 and continues into part 8 and can be found here: LBJ: A Closer Look: A (Mostly) Brilliant Classic Video – LBJ: Master of Deceit (lbjthemasterofdeceit.com).  

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Douglas Caddy

[Michael Griffith]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:05 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Numerous researchers including Jim D and myself have pretty thoroughly deconstructed Lamar's mistaken premise of a December coup - Lamar confused the AMWORLD preparations as being involved with his speculative Almeida coup (which was separately refuted when research showed Almeida was not even in Cuba on Lamar's dates).  Miscellaneous documents which Lamar had pulled into the story can now be shown simply  to have been part of other new CIA initiatives, which did relate to the hope of creating a the context of a coup but other documents now reveal that Castro's intelligence had compromised almost all the on island Cubans who the CIA was trying to involve and Castro let them know he was watching them. 

All of the above, the real picture of what was going on with the administration's efforts against Cuba in 1963 are discussed in some detail in Tipping Point, and clearly although a coup was talked about even the most basic elements to support it via AMWORLD did not go into play until late Spring 64....boats, weapons, people etc.  And those were not canceled by LBJ, as it turned out the whole concept was so weak and Artime such a poor leader that AMWORLD foundered even after it did launch (details in Shadow Warfare).

All of the issues with Lamar's Almeida coup concept were shared directly with him by Stu Wexler, myself and others but of course the book was already in print; a planned documentary based on it did not occur.

Its another of those pieces of JFK research which just did not hold up under examination and review but unfortunately those sorts of things never really go away.

So the account that Bobby went to LBJ and asked him to let the operation go forward is wrong?

I'll have to look into this. Waldron's case seems solid and detailed, with over 80 pages of discussion on the scheduled coup. But, looks can be deceiving.

I'll check out the link you provided in another reply. Are there any other online articles available that present and document the information you've presented? I'd like to read more on this. 

Thank you for the heads-up. If you are correct and Waldron got his facts confused as you say, I'm glad I haven't put anything on my JFK website about this.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Larry Hancock]

Mike, Bobby did go back to LBJ and ask him to support the Cuba projects that were already underway or at least getting started militarily but I think that was two or three months after the assassination.  LBJ was lukewarm about it and none of the projects were cancelled immediately,  AMWORLD began military operations in late spring and continued well until 1965.  Several of the other SAS/WAVE anti-Castro activities continued over the same two years but over time funding got reduced, people got pulled to go to SE Asia - basically LBJ had no interest in Cuba and began to be consumed by  SE Asia.

Its not so much that Lamar's facts about various activities related to a potential coup are wrong per se, its just that he pulls it all together into one consolidated operation, and added a chronology which just does not work with what we know now from actual CIA operations documents, not to mentions documents from the covert actions oversight group or the interdepartmental Cuba project JFK was sitting in on over that period. 

Basically in early 1964 RFK made a pitch to support all anti-Castro operations with the same level of endorsement and attention JFK had and Johnson was just not going to do that (actually at that point  you would have been hard pressed given the memos we now see to find anybody in AMWORLD or at WAVE that thought any of the projects had any chance of success).

I cover the history/chronology of AMWORLD in considerable detail in Shadow Warfare and cite sources which include both documents and various newspaper articles which began to show up as Artime's activities became pretty well known,  not the guy to pick to lead a covert/deniable operation. That is the best place for a list of sources.

Lamar and I both discovered AMWORLD independently, about the same time, and actually he asked me to hold back writing about it as his book was coming out...I didn't know where he was taking it and was shocked by the book.  Stu and I both made our issues known as we were in pretty constant contact with him for some time around then and it was all done with no hard feelings but I haven't been in touch with him for years now.

 

[Gerry Down]

I wonder if in Summer 1963 when AMWORLD began to be set up that the initial start date for it was set to perhaps the end of 1963 or early 1964 and the operation simply ran late until the Spring of 1964.

One reason for the delay would be the assassination itself disrupting things, though Nov 22 1963 is quiet late and AMWORLD was still a far way off from being operational even by that date. Another reason for the delay could be because Lansdale (not sure if Lansdale was involved in any aspect of AMWORLD though) had a habit of running late on projects, especially Mongoose connected operations.

So while AMWORLD did not become operational until late Spring of 1964 (even then it was only operational in a very basic way), I think the possibility existed in the second half of 1963 that AMWORLD was expected to be operational much sooner than actually ended up being the case.