Walker Bullet Errata

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

You make a case and it is good to cross-examine these things. The issue seems to come down to whether the original officers could be mistaken in labeling, whether that is unrealistic. I agree that it is either a mistake or a substitution, not a generic term in which a police officer would knowingly call a copper-jacketed bullet steel-jacketed (I corrected wording in my above on that), in keeping with your point about C399 never being called steel-jacketed.

There is this discussion where there is some argument for the mistake idea being plausible: https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/3jyJCWhHZJI . 

I just see these other cases of mistaken early police/first-responder descriptions having long afterlifes even after corrections are made. But I agree each case is case by case. From my point of view, I think Oswald took the shot (part of a staged shot as part of Walker's circle), and I don't see any real reason to doubt Marina's basic story of Oswald taking the rifle etc. retelling what he told her. The only positive argument for there being a substitution seems to come down to police would not make that mistake originally, and motive. Neither of those strike me as particularly persuasive or convincing, but I admit this is subjective. On Day saying he wrote "DAY" instead of "D", seems a simple error to make in memory? 

Well, if LHO had confederates in the Walker shooting...maybe they gave him a 30.06 rifle to use---a very common rifle at that time (and still a favorite among US hunters). 

OK, speculation:

1. Marina's testimony, as everyone agrees, is erratic to the point of worthlessness. 

2. But let's say in this case Marina remembered and testified correctly. Perhaps LHO did in fact take the disassembled M-C to the Walker scene, but when he got there his confederates said, "We have the rifle ready already. Use this one, a 30.06. It is a cheap, throw-away rifle." (The common 30.06's having been produced since 1906, with plenty of military surplus on the market after the US military phased the weapon out after 1955.)

3. Perhaps LHO did fire at Walker. But LHO was told by confederates, "No worries. We will plant this 30.06 slug where the cops will find it. They will not be able to trace the bullet back to your rifle." That is how a steel-jacketed 30.06 was conveniently found resting in between bundles of paper by the wall through which the true Walker bullet had passed. 

I appreciate your open-mindedness on this issue. 

The one thing I am fairly certain about---no one with even a minimal knowledge of bullets could conflate CE573 with a steel-jacketed bullet. 

To repeat, CE573 is a textbook photo of a copper-jacketed bullet.

Additionally, the idea that police detectives, or even gun enthusiasts and hunters, in 1963 described all rifle bullets as "steel jacketed" is pure fiction. I challenge anyone to find such in the literature. Steel jackets were the rare exception, and generally held in low regard. Almost all rifle bullets were copper-jackets. 

The idea that Chief Curry would try to confirm, as he did on Nov. 29 or thereabouts, with the FBI that "steel jacketed" bullets were used in the JFKA---when he really meant copper-jacketed bullets---is farfetched to the point of farce. 

Most likely (95% odds) a steel-jacketed 30.06 slug was found in the Walker home on April 10, 1963. Such bullets existed, as military surplus. 

That does not exonerate LHO in the Walker shooting, or in the JFKA. 

It does cast a color on the gathering of evidence in the JFKA, and suggests the WC conducted a prosecution of a leftie, loner loser, rather than an investigation into the JFKA. 

 

 

[Tom Gram]

On 4/29/2023 at 12:24 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

You realize that Lt. Day told the FBI and then also the WC he put his name "DAY" and a cross on the true Walker slug---but that word "Day" is not on CE573?

See my previous reply to Mark. I didn’t even notice this when I first looked at the document but that Dallas Field Office FD-302 report is Odum’s contact report on his meeting with Day on Dec. 2nd. The report just wasn’t written up until the 5th. 

In other words, Day stated that he marked the slug with “Day” and “a cross” while he literally had the bullet in his hand. 

The only, and I mean only way that this whole thing could be construed as some sort of memory issue is if neither Day nor Odum opened the DPD evidence box and looked at the actual slug, which is pretty difficult to swallow, IMO. Odum’s phrasing “The slug was identified by a cross and the word DAY…” suggests otherwise. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

Add on: The idea that detectives and lab workers in police work would conflate the terms "steel jacketed" and "copper jacketed" willy-nilly is just....weak, and a canard. 

For example, when FBI'er examined CE 573 on Dec. 4, he immediately ID'ed the bullet as a "copper jacketed lead bullet." (See handwritten notes). 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10040#relPageId=12 (See handwritten notes). 

Frazier did not ID the bullet as "steel jacketed" or even "full metal jacket." 

Full metal jacket bullets were almost all copper-jacketed anyway, with relatively rare exceptions of some wartime surplus bullets, made from steel due to WWII copper shortages. There may have been some other oddball production of steel-jacketed bullets--but steel-jackets were held in low regard--and a notable exception. Worth specifically noting at an attempted murder scene. 

The FMJ term actually has military origins, and refers to a bullet that complies with the Geneva convention. It means the slug jacket is "full" and does not have a soft lead tip, sometimes called a "dum-dum" bullet. 

Of course, all of this is old hat to police detectives and anyone who has worked with ammo. 

No professional ever said, "I describe all rifle bullets as steel jacketed."  

I defy readers of EF-JFKA to provide an example anywhere when detectives conflated the terms "steel jacketed" and "copper jacketed," or of a police agency anywhere that described "all rifle bullets as steel jacketed." 

 

 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Mark Ulrik it is unreasonable to state there is not reasonable doubt. you feel to a moral certainty or 95% certainty that there is no question that the bullet in evidence is the bullet recovered from the walker house especially in light of all the other shenanigans  by the FBI and DPD in this case?

@Benjamin Cole @Greg Doudna Marina only testified that LHO told her that he had shot at walker after she was confronted with the "walker note" that was magically discovered on November 30th. 

@Greg Doudna I think you are conflating mistakes by eyewitness accounts reported by the police and investigative work BY police. It is one thing to take a statement of a witness describing an incident or evidence. It is quite another situation when trained police document evidence they have taken. The DPD should be able to distinguish between a silver-jacketed bullet or copper-jacketed bullet. They know the importance of correctly identifying evidence. 

I believe this is a case where the 8 DPD officers correctly identified the bullet as a silver-jacketed, 30.06 caliber bullet and it was the the FBI that substituted the evidence to buttress the case against oswald.

The DPD made it possible for the FBI openings to manufacture evidence by not following proper crime scene procedures (taking photos of the sixth floor shells in place, the snipers nest and the paper bag before they were disturbed and the walker bullet when found). When the officers could not agree on what they saw, i think that was because of alteration of evidence by the FBI.-IMHO  

 

   

Edited May 2, 2023 by Lawrence Schnapf

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Mark Ulrik it is unreasonable to state there is not reasonable doubt. you feel to a moral certainty or 95% certainty that there is no question that the bullet in evidence is the bullet recovered from the walker house especially in light of all the other shenanigans  by the FBI and DPD in this case?

@Benjamin Cole @Greg Doudna Marina only testified that LHO told her that he had shot at walker after she was confronted with the "walker note" that was magically discovered on November 30th. 

@Greg Doudna I think you are conflating mistakes by eyewitness accounts reported by the police and investigative work BY police. It is one thing to take a statement of a witness describing an incident or evidence. It is quite another situation when trained police document evidence they have taken. The DPD should be able to distinguish between a silver-jacketed bullet or copper-jacketed bullet. They know the importance of correctly identifying evidence. 

I believe this is a case where the 8 DPD officers correctly identified the bullet as a silver-jacketed, 30.06 caliber bullet and it was the the FBI that substituted the evidence to buttress the case against oswald.

The DPD made it possible for the FBI openings to manufacture evidence by not following proper crime scene procedures (taking photos of the sixth floor shells in place, the snipers nest and the paper bag before they were disturbed and the walker bullet when found). When the officers could not agree on what they saw, i think that was because of alteration of evidence by the FBI.-IMHO  

 

   

Minor correx: "steel jacketed" not "silver jacketed."

Another interesting aspect is Chief Curry publicly opining that JFK was shot with "steel jacketed" bullets, and he was trying to confirm that with the FBI by Nov. 29. 

Police officials and detectives do not conflate steel-jacketed and copper-jacketed bullets in murder cases, and especially not Presidential assassinations. 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

@Benjamin Cole thanks for correction. that is what i get for writing late at night !

[James DiEugenio]

Ben where did you get this:

"Another interesting aspect is Chief Curry publicly opining that JFK was shot with "steel jacketed" bullets, and he was trying to confirm that with the FBI by Nov. 29. "

Don't recall that one, interesting as heck.

[Mark Ulrik]

32 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben where did you get this:

"Another interesting aspect is Chief Curry publicly opining that JFK was shot with "steel jacketed" bullets, and he was trying to confirm that with the FBI by Nov. 29. "

Don't recall that one, interesting as heck.

I'm afraid it's my fault. I posted the news item below to show Ben that even a police chief can make errors of terminology (although he may have been misquoted by the reporter). We don't know exactly what was said or how "soon after the shooting" it was. Curry's opinion may have been based on the behavior of the bullets, but especially after the discoveries on the 6th floor, it should have been obvious that jacketed ammo was used.

[Benjamin Cole]

37 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben where did you get this:

"Another interesting aspect is Chief Curry publicly opining that JFK was shot with "steel jacketed" bullets, and he was trying to confirm that with the FBI by Nov. 29. "

Don't recall that one, interesting as heck.

Read article posted by Mark Ulrik. I also did a separate post on that. 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I'm afraid it's my fault. I posted the news item below to show Ben that even a police chief can make errors of terminology (although he may have been misquoted by the reporter). We don't know exactly what was said or how "soon after the shooting" it was. Curry's opinion may have been based on the behavior of the bullets, but especially after the discoveries on the 6th floor, it should have been obvious that jacketed ammo was used.

MU-

I do not think any police detectives, examining CE573, would call that a "steel jacketed bullet."  CE573 is the very textbook photo of a copper jacketed bullet, with the jacketing torn asunder. 

Then, Chief Curry on Nov. 29 opined that the JFKA was accomplished with steel jacketed bullets, and asked the FBI to confirm whether relatively rare steel-jacketed bullets were used in the JFKA...when he only meant the common copper jacketed bullets? 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Benjamin Cole thanks for correction. that is what i get for writing late at night !

Been there and done that, with worse results....

[Benjamin Cole]

47 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben where did you get this:

"Another interesting aspect is Chief Curry publicly opining that JFK was shot with "steel jacketed" bullets, and he was trying to confirm that with the FBI by Nov. 29. "

Don't recall that one, interesting as heck.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29051-dpd-chief-curry-opines-jfk-shot-with-steel-jacketed-bullets-why-walker/

 

[Benjamin Cole]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MU-

I do not think any police detectives, examining CE573, would call that a "steel jacketed bullet."  CE573 is the very textbook photo of a copper jacketed bullet, with the jacketing torn asunder. 

Then, Chief Curry on Nov. 29 opined that the JFKA was accomplished with steel jacketed bullets, and asked the FBI to confirm whether relatively rare steel-jacketed bullets were used in the JFKA...when he only meant the common copper jacketed bullets? 

Why assume Curry conflated the terms "steel jacketed' and "copper jacketed"? Seems like a stretch. 

Why not assume Curry specifically inquired of the FBI if "steel jacketed" bullets were used as that is exactly what Curry meant, given what was found in LHO's possession (the Walker backyard photo) and the steel-jacketed slug recovered that day, ID'ed as a 30.06? 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Ulrik]

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MU-

I do not think any police detectives, examining CE573, would call that a "steel jacketed bullet."  CE573 is the very textbook photo of a copper jacketed bullet, with the jacketing torn asunder. 

Then, Chief Curry on Nov. 29 opined that the JFKA was accomplished with steel jacketed bullets, and asked the FBI to confirm whether relatively rare steel-jacketed bullets were used in the JFKA...when he only meant the common copper jacketed bullets?

Did Curry personally examine any of the bullet evidence? It seems to me that he was using "steel-jacketed" colloquially, but you should probably try to find his original statement. Where did you get the idea that he asked the FBI to confirm anything?

[Mark Ulrik]

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Why not assume Curry specifically inquired of the FBI if "steel jacketed" bullets were used as that is exactly what Curry meant, given what was found in LHO's possession (the Walker backyard photo) and the steel-jacketed slug recovered that day, ID'ed as a 30.06?

Now, that's a stretch! For starters, why would Curry think that a seemingly random photo of a house was relevant, and why would he associate it with Walker?