Oliver Stone: "Putin is a great leader for his country."

[W. Niederhut]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

You know, this shows a really poor background in history by just about everyone on this thread.

Oliver does a lot of reading in history, and in Russian history he was schooled by the late great Princeton scholar Steve Cohen.

Cohen was one of the very few scholars who understood what Gorbachev was trying to do and understood what he was up against.  He thought Gorbachev was visionary.

But Gorbachev made two large errors, one geopoltiical and one domestically.

The first one was not getting a signed agreement from the USA on the non expansion of NATO in return for formal German unification.  Terrible mistake. Like trusting Trump at his word.

Secondly, he should have fired Yeltsin early for insubordination.  Another key mistake.

Yeltsin's plans to turn a communist economy into a free enterprise one overnight was a horrendous mistake that turned Russia into an economic mess.  Probably worse than the USA during the Great Depression, perhaps much worse.  

Yeltsin then turned into a US backed drunken dictator who actually shelled  the opposition inside the capital illegally.  And he was supplied with US backing to stay in office--lot of money-- as the country descended into  a third world zone. And Americans applauded.

These conditions created Putin since he was trying to restore Russian pride after Yeltsin had about wrecked the country.

The other mistake by Gorby, who I liked, is what has caused the present crisis. And this is why Putin resents Gorbachev and will not talk about him today.

I see Gorby as an enormous lost opportunity. That guy did everything he could to expand detente and to eliminate nuclear arms.  That Reagan refused the Iceland offer was a truly shocking moment which showed how crazy the Neocons were and drunk on their own power.  But in another way, it was things  like that which chopped off the floor from under Gorby. And led to the drunken fool Yeltsin. And the wreckage of the Russian economy.

Please let us not forget the causes and effects of history. 

 

Jim,

     I agree with your summary of Russian history in the Gorbachev and Yeltsin years, but what is missing from your summary is the history of the Russian Federation in the Putin era--since the late 1990s.  

    Putin stabilized the RF after taking over for Yeltsin, and began his reign in the guise of an enlightened, democratic leader.

    But there was a much darker back story behind the KGB Colonel's rise to power.

    In a step-wise manner, Putin transformed Russia's fledgling, post-Soviet democracy into a totalitarian police state-- murdering journalists, establishing strict state control of the media, and subverting the Russian constitution in order to remain a dictator.

    Putin-- the career KGB officer from the Yuri Andropov Institute-- carried out this scheme with the backing of his KGB (FSB) apparatchiks and billionaire oligarchs.

Amazon.com: Putin's People: How the KGB Took Back Russia and Then Took On the West eBook : Belton, Catherine: Kindle Store

    During this process of Putin transforming the RF from a democracy into a totalitarian police state, some Western intellectuals, including Oliver Stone, have continued to view Putin as some sort of enlightened autocrat-- despite the fact that he has been openly contemptuous of liberal democracy, and has actively supported right-wing fascist movements in Europe and the U.S.

    It was only after his ghastly invasion of Ukraine in 2022 that the blinders came off for most of his former Western admirers.

[John Cotter]

The question that Putin haters and Russophobes run away from like scalded cats:

If you keep poking a bear and the bear eventually reacts by tearing off your arm, who’s to blame?

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, John Cotter said:

The question that Putin haters and Russophobes run away from like scalded cats:

If you keep poking a bear and the bear eventually reacts by tearing off your arm, who’s to blame?

Ukraine poked the bear...how?

[James DiEugenio]

3 hours ago, John Cotter said:

The question that Putin haters and Russophobes run away from like scalded cats:

If you keep poking a bear and the bear eventually reacts by tearing off your arm, who’s to blame?

Nice one John.

The USA ruling class does not want the Cold War to end, ever.  And I mean ever.

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one John.

The USA ruling class does not want the Cold War to end, ever.  And I mean ever.

Ever?

2014:  Obama and Putin arrange the destruction of the Syria’s chemical weapons stockpile.

The Neo-cons hated it.

2015:  the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, France, China, Germany and the European Union negotiated strong restrictions on the Iranian nuclear program.

The Neo-cons hated it.

2016:  Obama visited Cuba.

The Neo-cons hated it.

2021:  Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, etc.

This is not to distract from the Other Side of the Dem Prez ledger— inevitably mistaken regime change policies in Ukraine, Libya, Honduras — and the drone bombing of civilians in many countries.

Trump pulled out of the Iran nuke deal and moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem— much to the delight of Neo-cons.

Anyone who claims Trump is an opponent of the Deep State doesn’t grasp the factional nature of the “USA ruling class.”

Edited May 5, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[James DiEugenio]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one John.

The USA ruling class does not want the Cold War to end, ever.  And I mean ever.

And let me add, this has turned out to be counterproductive.

As I said elsewhere, it has more or less forced this new world order alliance together: China, Russia, India.

That represents a massive amount of the world population, resources and wealth.  And this is all on the uptake.

The other problem is that the American economy cannot do what the Chinese are doing, the R and B project--for instance in Latin America-- for the simple reason that we devote a ridiculous amount of our GDP to the Pentagon.  I cannot help but wonder if this was the reason that Reagan's camp turned down Gorby's offer at Iceland.  Just remember, even Thatcher said that Gorbachev was a man she could deal with. 

What does that say when someone as far right as she was says that, and you do not take his offer?

Edited May 5, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[John Cotter]

5 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Ukraine poked the bear...how?

I know it's an extremely complex metaphor, Cliff, but I'll do my best to explain it.

Ukraine is the arm.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

And let me add, this has turned out to be counterproductive.

For who? The US people. Not for the ruling class. Wealth is still flowing upwards. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

I know it's an extremely complex metaphor, Cliff, but I'll do my best to explain it.

Not complex, it’s silly.

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Ukraine is the arm.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/12/putin-russia-us-missile-defense-nato-ukraine/

Putin said his special operation was to “de-N-a-z-ify” Ukraine — amidst missile negotiations with the West.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one John.

Jim & John,  

Any thoughts about Putin's poisoning and current incarceration of opposition politician Alexei Navalny?

(Trump said it was none of our business-- after German physicians confirmed that Navalny had been poisoned in Russia.)

How about Putin's recent 25-year Gulag prison sentence for the Russian journalist Vladimir Kara-Murza?

How is Putin's persecution of Russian journalists and political opponents formally different than what Hitler did in Germany after 1932?

(Hitler immediately shut down the opposition press and incarcerated political opponents at Dachau after coming to power in 1932.)

For that matter, how is Putin's 2022 invasion of Ukraine formally different than Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939?

Recall that Hitler claimed that ethnic Germans were being persecuted by the Poles, in the same way that Putin has claimed that his ethnic Russian insurgents have been persecuted by the Ukrainians.

And, unfortunately, Hitler, (like Putin today) had misguided fans in Western Europe and the U.S. in the 1930s.

BTW, has Oliver Stone ever mentioned Navalny in his paeans to Putin?

Edited May 5, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, John Cotter said:

1. The question that Putin haters and Russophobes run away from like scalded cats:
2. If you keep poking a bear and the bear eventually reacts by tearing off your arm, who’s to blame?

 

Let me see if I've got this straight....

A number of Eastern European countries join NATO in order to protect themselves from attacks from other countries. In particular, potential Russian invasions.

Russia doesn't like this, and so invades Ukraine, a non-NATO country.

 

Some people on this forum see the following as facts:

1. Something is wrong or evil about a country joining NATO -- an organization whose function it is to band its members together against any country that invades a member country. Does that make sense? No.
2. If a country joins this organization, other nearby non-member countries understandably feel threatened. Does that make sense? No.
3. Russia was justified in invading Ukraine because some other nearby countries had become NATO members. Does that make sense? No.
4. Russia's goal in invading Ukraine was to stop it and other nearby countries from joining NATO. Does that make sense? No.
5. Russia's goal in invading Ukraine was NOT to reclaim a country it had lost as a result of the fall of the USSR. Does that make sense? No.

 

 

John, do you think that Putin is a great leader? If so, why? Keep in mind the he unjustifiably attacked Ukraine (what did Ukraine do to Russia?) and is a proven war criminal.

 

[W. Niederhut]

Sandy,

     If John Cotter had been around in 1939, he would have said, "Poland shouldn't have poked the Wolf."

     And, interestingly, just as Hitler had previously described his agenda of annexing Slavic territory in Eastern Europe for "lebensraum," Putin's brain, Aleksander Dugin, had described Putin's agenda of annexing Ukraine, in his 1997 text, The Geopolitical Future of Russia.

     Yet, oddly, the John Cotters in the West are still blaming Ukraine for Putin's bloody imperialist  agenda.

Edited May 5, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Let me see if I've got this straight....

A number of Eastern European countries join NATO in order to protect themselves from attacks from other countries. In particular, potential Russian invasions.

Russia doesn't like this, and so invades Ukraine, a non-NATO country.

 

Some people on this forum see the following as facts:

1. Something is wrong or evil about a country joining NATO -- an organization whose function it is to band its members together against any country that invades a member country. Does that make sense? No.
2. If a country joins this organization, other nearby non-member countries understandably feel threatened. Does that make sense? No.
3. Russia was justified in invading Ukraine because some other nearby countries had become NATO members. Does that make sense? No.
4. Russia's goal in invading Ukraine was to stop it and other nearby countries from joining NATO. Does that make sense? No.
5. Russia's goal in invading Ukraine was NOT to reclaim a country it had lost as a result of the fall of the USSR. Does that make sense? No.

 

 

John, do you think that Putin is a great leader? If so, why? Keep in mind the he unjustifiably attacked Ukraine (what did Ukraine do to Russia?) and is a proven war criminal.

 

Sandy, this has all be gone through in detail, step by step in the Yahtzee’s thread which got moved. You surely must know some of the counter-arguments that have been discussed?! 

[John Cotter]

@W. Niederhut, @Cliff Varnell and @Sandy Larsen,

We’ve debated this ad nauseam elsewhere, so I’ll be as brief as possible here.

Putin’s Realpolitik approach to foreign policy and – to some extent – to internal Russian politics has been elucidated by Professor John Mearsheimer among others. I find Mearsheimer’s analysis generally persuasive.

Putin’s ruthlessness in respect of internal Russian politics is probably best explained by the long list of “undesirable” foreign leaders assassinated or targeted for assassination by the CIA down through the years.

https://brutalproof.net/2019/11/cias-assassination-list/

I remember reading somewhere about Che Guevara advising Fidel Castro that having an open society in Cuba would be suicidal in view of the USA’s policy of global dominance involving the assassination of “undesirable” foreign leaders, regime change and so on.

In view of all of this and the USA’s internal kleptocratic political regime – not to mention its being accessory to the assassinations of its own political leaders in the 1960s – I find moralistic finger-pointing at Russia by sanctimonious Americans and westerners generally quite sickening.

Edited May 5, 2023 by John Cotter

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

@W. Niederhut, @Cliff Varnell and @Sandy Larsen,

We’ve debated this ad nauseam elsewhere, so I’ll be as brief as possible here.

Putin’s Realpolitik approach to foreign policy and – to some extent – to internal Russian politics has been elucidated by Professor John Mearsheimer among others. I find Mearsheimer’s analysis generally persuasive.

Putin’s ruthlessness in respect of internal Russian politics is probably best explained by the long list of “undesirable” foreign leaders assassinated or targeted for assassination by the CIA down through the years.

https://brutalproof.net/2019/11/cias-assassination-list/

I remember reading somewhere about Che Guevara advising Fidel Castro that having an open society in Cuba would be suicidal in view of the USA’s policy of global dominance involving the assassination of “undesirable” foreign leaders, regime change and so on.

In view of all of this and the USA’s internal kleptocratic political regime – not to mention its being accessory to the assassinations of its own political leaders in the 1960s – I find moralistic finger-pointing at Russia by sanctimonious Americans and westerners generally quite sickening.

I protested the Vietnam War in the early 70’s, the Grenada invasion in ‘83 (watched an American flag burned at the intersection of Shattuck and University Aves in Berkeley), the first Iraq invasion in ‘91, and a dozen demonstrations against the ‘03 Iraq War.  I denounce all forms of “regime change” including Putin’s unprovoked aggression against Ukraine.  If you find that sanctimonious— that’s *your* problem.