Rufus Taylor to Adm McDonald re: Ruby/Oswald connection 27-Nov-63 - ONI

[David Josephs]

With new eyes, I'm going back thru what few ONI related documents I have and am finding Rear Adm Taylor was in possession of Oswald's files for most of the WC tenure with a memo showing 3 copies are made of his Case History File with one going back into file since Taylor was still in possession - Jul 1964 - I had paired it with this other ONI doc from early evening on the 22nd.

Here is the other Taylor doc from the 27th.  They talk about forwarding on the FBI and also comment about Oswald's apparent recognition of Ruby moments before he is killed with an interesting observation by Taylor.

My knowledge of these documents and what they mean is limited while I know Larry H. and others are much more well-versed.  I'm only now restarting my ONI research so maybe this is premature...  any info on these docs and related would be appreciated

DJ

[Steve Thomas]

David,

In your first memo, it says that info was received by a Captain Jackson (Op-921).

Just out of curiosity, I looked up Op-921 ONI, and came up with this:

https://ia803204.us.archive.org/27/items/nsia-AgentOswaldOfficeNavalInvestigativeService/nsia-AgentOswaldOfficeNavalInvestigativeService/Pages%20201-250_text.pdf

That pdf file has 50 pages to it. A lot of the information was to be hand-carried - not sent over the wires.

It looks like Op-921 was some kind of clearinghouse for information on Oswald.

I had to laugh when I saw this memo:

 

Good old Lee Henry

*smile*

 

They were looking for information on Edward Pick too.

Steve Thomas

Edited May 8, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Yowser!

Look at the date on this thing

 

Steve Thomas

Edited May 8, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Yowser!

Look at the date on this thing

 

Great finds - thank you. 

 

From H&L:

Three days later, on Friday, December 28, Mrs. Declan (Katya) Ford held a post-Christmas party gathering at her house in Dallas. At the request of Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. who Mrs. Ford had known for 14 years she invited the Oswalds to her party. This was the third and last time Katya Ford would see either of the Oswald's.
The party was attended by Lev Aronson, Thomas and Natalie Ray, Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan, George Bouhe, Anna and Teofil Meller, Tatiana Biggers, Samuel Ballen, Lydia Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Charles Harris, George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, and Yaeko Okui. Nearly all of these people were either Russian or married to a former Russian national.

George Bouhe remembered, "Late in the evening George DeMohrenschildt and his wife appeared, accompanied by Lee Harvey and Marina.  I could almost hear a gasp among some of the people who were around me. 

[Benjamin Cole]

14 hours ago, David Josephs said:

With new eyes, I'm going back thru what few ONI related documents I have and am finding Rear Adm Taylor was in possession of Oswald's files for most of the WC tenure with a memo showing 3 copies are made of his Case History File with one going back into file since Taylor was still in possession - Jul 1964 - I had paired it with this other ONI doc from early evening on the 22nd.

Here is the other Taylor doc from the 27th.  They talk about forwarding on the FBI and also comment about Oswald's apparent recognition of Ruby moments before he is killed with an interesting observation by Taylor.

My knowledge of these documents and what they mean is limited while I know Larry H. and others are much more well-versed.  I'm only now restarting my ONI research so maybe this is premature...  any info on these docs and related would be appreciated

DJ

Are the names on this memo still redacted? 

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Are the names on this memo still redacted? 

This is the only version of the memo I have at the moment.  ONI is not great on removing them.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And the significance of this memo is supposed to be ... what, exactly?

[Benjamin Cole]

22 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And the significance of this memo is supposed to be ... what, exactly?

Well, the ONI memo dated Nov. 27 says a witness, or maybe two witnesses, saw LHO and Ruby together trying to get a stage mike fixed. 

Of course, witness statements are notoriously unreliable, in the JFKA or any other complicated event. 

What is significant to me is that the witnesses names and business have been redacted. Which roadblocks any civilian researchers following up...and now this witness may have passed on. 

It would be nice to know who said they saw LHO and Ruby together, and under what circumstances.

Was there a one-hour long meeting, with lots of handling of mikes and sound-tests by LHO and Ruby...or did the witnesses see "LHO" through a store window briefly while Ruby bought some gear?

And did one or two witnesses see Ruby and LHO together, and did they both say so? 

Why these witness names would have to be redacted...

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Jonathan Cohen]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, the ONI memo dated Nov. 27 says a witness, or maybe two witnesses, saw LHO and Ruby together trying to get a stage mike fixed. 

Of course, witness statements are notoriously unreliable, in the JFKA or any other complicated event. 

OK.. but can you point to any credible, non-Judyth Baker evidence to support the notion that Oswald and Ruby actually did know each other, which would in turn back up the claims made in this memo? I've certainly yet to see it.

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

t would be nice to know who said they saw LHO and Ruby together, and under what circumstances. A one-hour long meeting, with lots of handling of mikes and sound-tests by LHO and Ruby...or did the witness see "LHO" through a store window briefly while Ruby bought some gear? 

I'll go look Ben, I am fairly sure we know who that was and have his direct statements...  yet I need to expand upon these ONI documents and Taylor.  Add in what Steve posted from Dec 1962...  Add in the other document I posted about July 1964, and one I did not post about the creation of these files and who got what information from them..

Taylor and the ONI - Navy was asked for images of Oswald early on.. October in fact.  But they didn't supply them.

Oswald's files are consistently referred to in the hands, or passing thru the hands of Taylor at times well before it matters, well after he's dead, and to elicit early doubts about the OSWALD/RUBY relationship enough so to change the meaning of his killing and the implications of his connections.

You really think the ONI was not aware of the Ruby connections?  Do we ever hear or see anything about the Navy helping with the investigation or rather silencing thru military threat anyone, especially from the NAVAL hospital in Bethesda (not the Army's Walter Reed even though it was the doctors who felt an "Army" GENERAL was in charge of the "operation") to reveal anything, ever.  

I truly get the impression members do not grasp the pre/post Parkland/Bethesda changes and the extent to which the 3 shot scenario was so easily disproven.

From this NAVAL hospital - since this memo is written during the autopsy - where does that bullet go?  The manhole bullet, the chrome dented on the limo, Connally's multiple injuries.  O'Connor's intercostal bullet found and removed... on and on and all under the command, ultimately, of Rufus Taylor.

Below this is a chart I drew up to try and understand who was who and where their orders originated.  Posted it on a different thread but very applicable here.

I just find it very interesting the level of interest this man, in these positions had for our little Oswald up to a year before the assassination and throughout the WC process, and beyond.

Rufus Lackland Taylor Jr.[1] (January 6, 1910 – September 14, 1978) was an officer in the United States Navy.[2][3] Eventually he became Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence and held the rank of Vice Admiral. In 1966 he was appointed as Deputy Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), then shortly thereafter as Deputy Director of the CIA, where he served from 1966 to 1969.

 

[David Josephs]

23 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

45 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And the significance of this memo is supposed to be ... what, exactly?

Well, the ONI memo dated Nov. 27 says a witness saw LHO and Ruby together trying to get a stage mike fixed. 

Ben... I'd ask why in the first place JC here would bother asking the question...  especially when he needs to add in the snarky, back-handed insult directed specifically at me due to my understanding of the evidence at a depth he couldn't find with both hands and a flashlight

10 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

non-Judyth Baker evidence

To this is what he refers: https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JudythBaker-DJ.pdf which proves definitively that JVB is one of the most effective coat-tail celebrities in the JFK cesspool of carpetbaggers.  Members of JC's ilk can't fathom the Harvey and Lee reality so they pummel away at every opportunity thinking they are making a differece to those who have taken the time and done their homework.  There are a number of posters who feel it their duty to dispel the conclusions - more power to them... threads have been started with the opposing viewpoint and supporting evidence provided...  make up your own mind is just fine with me.

Making the effort as JC here does, to attack the concept regardless of the topic discussed appears to me as a bit obsessed - 

JC... don't bother responding, you've been on ignore so long now and life here has been so much less annoying...  but for others please keep it up... the more you post the more transparent you get.. . I only open your drek up in cases like this.  You showing any interest in anything I post is so amazingly ingenuous it's nauseating.

worse yet, you asking these "dripping with sarcasm" questions. 

A blind man saying he can't see is no big revelation.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

49 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Ben... I'd ask why in the first place JC here would bother asking the question...  especially when he needs to add in the snarky, back-handed insult directed specifically at me due to my understanding of the evidence at a depth he couldn't find with both hands and a flashlight

Right, so, as I expected, there's no evidence to support Oswald and Ruby having known each other, and as Ben correctly observes, "witness statements are notoriously unreliable" vis a vis these memos. It should be pretty laughable to any reasonable person here that you slam Judyth Baker and then moments later resurface the idiotic Harvey and Lee theory as some bastion of higher truth. Have fun wading in the "depths" with "both hands and a flashlight." Let me know if you need help dragging any doppelgangers up from their CIA-sponsored tombs, mmkay?

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I'll go look Ben, I am fairly sure we know who that was and have his direct statements...  yet I need to expand upon these ONI documents and Taylor.  Add in what Steve posted from Dec 1962... 

David,

I went through these memos last night, and most of them deal with Oswald's discharge and how the Navy was going to respond to Oswald's objections.

I saw the same enclosure about protecting sources and methods attached to memos from August, 1962.

It looks like Op 92 was the office and then Op 921 was referring to an individual.  I also saw references to Op921E.

Steve Thomas

[Jonathan Cohen]

19 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

I went through these memos last night, and most of them deal with Oswald's discharge and how the Navy was going to respond to Oswald's objections.

Steve, in your opinion, is there anything untoward or unusual about the above?

[Steve Thomas]

48 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Steve, in your opinion, is there anything untoward or unusual about the above?

Jonathan,

What surprised me is how closely information about Oswald was being held by the Office of Naval Intellignce.

Immediately after the assassination, the information they shared was to be hand delivered and not trusted to the telephone, or TWX. They were reluctant to share info with the Pentagon or the Defense Intelligene Agency, and even then, it seems that they were only sharing summaries, and not the raw data. Here's some samples:

Captain Johnson was with the Office of Naval Intelligence Support Center in Arlington, VA.

Steve Thomas