Did the INS pick up Jean-Rene Souetre in Dallas?

[Steve Thomas]

I would say no.

from:

Legacy of Secrecy by Lamar Waldron pp. 231-232

https://epdf.tips/legacy-of-secrecy-the-long-shadow-of-the-jfk-assassination.html

 

“Virgil Bailey, an INS investigator in Dallas in 1963, told researcher

Gary Shaw years later about “picking up a Frenchman in Dallas shortly

after the assassination of President Kennedy.” The man’s description

was very close to Mertz’s, and he looked just a few years older than

a cover identity Mertz often used. Based on age and description, the

man Investigator Bailey remembered could not have been either

the real Souetre or the young French chef. Bailey also recalled that “the

Frenchman . . . had been tried in absentia in France and was under a

death sentence for collaboration with the National Socialists during World War II.”

 

Germany invaded France on May 10, 1940 and France surrendered on June 25, 1940.

In May and June, 1940, Jean-Rene Souetre was nine years old.

Paris was liberated on August 25, 1944.

In August of 1944, Souetre was thirteen years old and living in a military boarding school, where had had been since the age of eleven.

 

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

Hey Steve, interesting timing of your post.  I just finally finished reading the text of Coup in Dallas by H P Albarelli & Co today.  200 pages of other stuff left.  

From the last few pages (435-37).

"The records of Pan American Airways . . . indicate Dominique P Roux and Viviane H Roux departed Houston, Texas for Mexico City on November 22, 1953.  The records also reflect John P Mertz, Irma Rio de Mertz and Sara Mertz departed Houston, Texas for Mexico City on November 23, 1963."

"(Dick) Russell continues . . . Soutre was in Dallas that day and was flown out that afternoon by a private pilot."  . . . "piloted by Joseph Silverthorne, OSS/CIA pilot/"occasional trusted assassin."  "appears in William Harvey's infamous , hand written QJ/Win notes,"  

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Hey Steve, interesting timing of your post.  I just finally finished reading the text of Coup in Dallas by H P Albarelli & Co today.  200 pages of other stuff left.  

From the last few pages (435-37).

"The records of Pan American Airways . . . indicate Dominique P Roux and Viviane H Roux departed Houston, Texas for Mexico City on November 22, 1953.  The records also reflect John P Mertz, Irma Rio de Mertz and Sara Mertz departed Houston, Texas for Mexico City on November 23, 1963."

"(Dick) Russell continues . . . Soutre was in Dallas that day and was flown out that afternoon by a private pilot."  . . . "piloted by Joseph Silverthorne, OSS/CIA pilot/"occasional trusted assassin."  "appears in William Harvey's infamous , hand written QJ/Win notes,"  

As Arthur Schlesinger wrote in his 1961 memo to JFK about possibly reorganizing the CIA, the CIA had "its own air force".  They certainly had planes and a roster of pilots to fly them.

 

So I've never understood why anyone would think the INS would be involved in the super secret process of sending an assassin or group of assassins of JFK out of the country after the murder.  The CIA had no reason to involve them.

 

Souetre in Dallas, flown out by Silverthorne is a plausible story, yet to be established. INS involvement in the escape is another diversion.

[Ron Bulman]

Actually, we have this.  " (Bernard) Fensterwald (working with J. Gary Shaw at the time) wrote of the arrests: ". . . An INS Inspector named Virgil Bailey picked up a Frenchman at an apartment on either Gaston or Ross Street in Dallas.  He believes the arrest was on Sunday, November 24, 1963, but can remember none of the details other than the person arrested was French and the matter was top priority . . . Another INS inspector named Hal Norwood received two urgent calls from IND Headquarters in Washington, stating that they wanted (name unrecalled by INS), a foreigner, picked up immediately.  Norwood was very surprised to find this person was already in the hands of INS Dallas, he had been picked up on November 22nd or 23rd as the result of a call from the Dallas police, who had apprehended him."  Pages 447-448.  

[Paul Cummings]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:36 AM, Roger Odisio said:

As Arthur Schlesinger wrote in his 1961 memo to JFK about possibly reorganizing the CIA, the CIA had "its own air force".  They certainly had planes and a roster of pilots to fly them.

 

So I've never understood why anyone would think the INS would be involved in the super secret process of sending an assassin or group of assassins of JFK out of the country after the murder.  The CIA had no reason to involve them.

 

Souetre in Dallas, flown out by Silverthorne is a plausible story, yet to be established. INS involvement in the escape is another diversion.

The  JFKA was compartmentalized so why is it assumed people had to know about the assassination? Eyewitness accounts have Oswald meeting with INS agent during his time in New Orleans for the summer of 1963.  

Edited June 17, 2023 by Paul Cummings

[Steve Thomas]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

  Norwood was very surprised to find this person was already in the hands of INS Dallas, he had been picked up on November 22nd or 23rd as the result of a call from the Dallas police, who had apprehended him."  Pages 447-448.  

Ron,

I wouldn't doubt that the Dallas Police picked up somebody, but I've wondered where the local Dallas Police Department's arrest records are. I can see the CIA stepping in and asking a fellow federal agency to bury its records, but the idea of the CIA stepping in and quashing a local police department's records is kind of immense to me.

My point was, if the DPD or INS did pick up somebody, and the guy they picked up had been sentenced to death in absentia for being a National Socialist collaborator in WWII, it couldn't have been Jean-Rene Souetre. He was only a child in the 1940's.

PS: Earlier, you wrote, "(Dick) Russell continues . . . Soutre was in Dallas that day..."

As I understand it, Dick Russell was relying on information obtained from Bernard Fensterwald. Fensterwald got his information from Gilbert Lecavelier, a known SAC agent.

Gary Shaw/Bernard Fensterwald Litigation Against the Department of State

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6060&search=Torjmann#relPageId=1&tab=page

Fensterwald Sunnary of Paris Trip, 1982

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Souetre%20Jean%20with%20aka%27s/Item%2011.pdf

Page 3

Both ____ and Le Cavelier suggested that a current visit to see Souetre
in Divonne Les Bains would be (1) dangerous; (2) unproductive (he won't talk);
and (3) probably counterproductive. We did not visit Souetre

Pages 4-5

Attached as Appendix C is Dr. Farrell's summary of our conversation with Perez.

We had a number of long private conversations with Le Cavelier, and the investigation in France will continue full steam.

Appendix C Dr. Farrell's summary of our conversation with Perez.

Page 22

Q: Did you know of any O.A.S. members training Anticastro guerrillas
there?
A: No.
Gilbert Lecalevier breaks in, tells him that, yes there were some.

Lecavalier was SAC. SAC and the OAS hated each other. He wrote in his book that whereas the main effort of SAC between 1958 and 1960 was against the FLN (the pro-independence Algerian rebels), between 1961 and 1967, it was against the OAS

Steve Thomas

Edited June 17, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Bill Simpich]

Here's the story on how Michel Roux was confused with Souetre, visited at least Fort Worth, Houston and Mexico City (and maybe Dallas) during the 11/22 weekend (more on Roux at the pseudonyms at MFF):

Re 11/20/63-11/24/63: 3/12/64 memo from Director FBI to Legal Attache, Paris, "Roux was in Houston November 20 last and visited (Leon Gachman, head of Gachman Metals, Post Office Box 308, Fort Worth) in Fort Worth between November 21-November 23 and returned to Houston. Through friends Gachman arranged to obtain job for Roux at unidentified Mexico City hotel until Roux could obtain proper visa..."

Also see 124-10224-10060, p. 2: Leon Gachman of Gachman Metals claimed Roux arrived at his home in Fort Worth the night of 11/21 as part of his efforts to get into the hotel business; that Roux visited his son's class at Texas Christian the morning of 11/22; that they were having lunch at a cafe when the news reported the shooting of JFK. The next day, Roux went back to Houston, where Gachman joined him the next day, from there Roux went to Mexico City.

Also see http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/S Disk/Souetre Jean with aka's/Item 11.pdf - page 10 - in an affidavit given to French authorities, Roux recounts his trip to see "Gaschman" for work in Fort Worth and Houston that never materialized, never mentions that he was in Dallas on 11/22, is vague about the time period that he was in the Fort Worth area; said that he only said the Mexicans should "reinforce security" when de Gaulle comes to visit. - page 1 - a journalist states he met Roux in Montreal in January 20-21, 1964, where Roux told him he had recently visited Dallas as well as Fort Worth, and that there was a plan to assassinate de Gaulle in Mexico City in March 1964. Also see page 14: "Legal attache in Paris advised 3/13/64 Michel Roux referred to above has been located by French in Paris and it has been determined he is not identical with Jean Souetre. Discontinue investigation."

180-10110-10054: [No Title]

Re 11/22/63-January 1964, re Souetre aka Michel Roux aka Michel Mertz: A faint 4/1/64 extract of a document released by CIA (known as FOIA document 632-796) states that "Jean Souetre aka Michel Roux aka Michel Mertz - On 5 March, the Legal Attache in Paris and also the SDECE man (French intelligence service) had queried the Bureau in New York City concerning subject stating that he had been expelled from the US at Fort Worth or Dallas 48 hours after the assassination. He was in Fort Worth on 22 November and in Dallas in the afternoon. The French believe that he was expelled to either Mexico or Canada. In January he received call from dentist named Alderson living at 5803 Birmingham, Houston, Texas. Subject is believed to be identical with a Captain who is a deserter with the French Army and an activist in the OAS. The French are concerned because of deGaulle's planned visit to Mexico. They would like to know the reason for his expulsion from the US and his destination...WH/3/Biblio; CI/SIG; CI/OPS/Evans." Discussion of this document in 1977 by FBI officials and the media can be found at 124-10224-10072, p. 6.

[Roger Odisio]

21 hours ago, Bill Simpich said:

Here's the story on how Michel Roux was confused with Souetre, visited at least Fort Worth, Houston and Mexico City (and maybe Dallas) during the 11/22 weekend (more on Roux at the pseudonyms at MFF):

Re 11/20/63-11/24/63: 3/12/64 memo from Director FBI to Legal Attache, Paris, "Roux was in Houston November 20 last and visited (Leon Gachman, head of Gachman Metals, Post Office Box 308, Fort Worth) in Fort Worth between November 21-November 23 and returned to Houston. Through friends Gachman arranged to obtain job for Roux at unidentified Mexico City hotel until Roux could obtain proper visa..."

Also see 124-10224-10060, p. 2: Leon Gachman of Gachman Metals claimed Roux arrived at his home in Fort Worth the night of 11/21 as part of his efforts to get into the hotel business; that Roux visited his son's class at Texas Christian the morning of 11/22; that they were having lunch at a cafe when the news reported the shooting of JFK. The next day, Roux went back to Houston, where Gachman joined him the next day, from there Roux went to Mexico City.

Also see http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/S Disk/Souetre Jean with aka's/Item 11.pdf - page 10 - in an affidavit given to French authorities, Roux recounts his trip to see "Gaschman" for work in Fort Worth and Houston that never materialized, never mentions that he was in Dallas on 11/22, is vague about the time period that he was in the Fort Worth area; said that he only said the Mexicans should "reinforce security" when de Gaulle comes to visit. - page 1 - a journalist states he met Roux in Montreal in January 20-21, 1964, where Roux told him he had recently visited Dallas as well as Fort Worth, and that there was a plan to assassinate de Gaulle in Mexico City in March 1964. Also see page 14: "Legal attache in Paris advised 3/13/64 Michel Roux referred to above has been located by French in Paris and it has been determined he is not identical with Jean Souetre. Discontinue investigation."

180-10110-10054: [No Title]

Re 11/22/63-January 1964, re Souetre aka Michel Roux aka Michel Mertz: A faint 4/1/64 extract of a document released by CIA (known as FOIA document 632-796) states that "Jean Souetre aka Michel Roux aka Michel Mertz - On 5 March, the Legal Attache in Paris and also the SDECE man (French intelligence service) had queried the Bureau in New York City concerning subject stating that he had been expelled from the US at Fort Worth or Dallas 48 hours after the assassination. He was in Fort Worth on 22 November and in Dallas in the afternoon. The French believe that he was expelled to either Mexico or Canada. In January he received call from dentist named Alderson living at 5803 Birmingham, Houston, Texas. Subject is believed to be identical with a Captain who is a deserter with the French Army and an activist in the OAS. The French are concerned because of deGaulle's planned visit to Mexico. They would like to know the reason for his expulsion from the US and his destination...WH/3/Biblio; CI/SIG; CI/OPS/Evans." Discussion of this document in 1977 by FBI officials and the media can be found at 124-10224-10072, p. 6.

When the Legal Attache in Paris asked the FBI about whether Souetre was in, and later expelled from, Dallas the weekend of the JFKA, I don't think it was a case of mistaken identity, of confusion between Souetre and Roux, a real person used by Souetre as one of his aliases.  

 

The French were following up an article in an obscure newspaper claiming the reporter had been told by a Frenchman of being expelled from Dallas that weekend.  The article did not name his source, but when interviewed by the local police the reporter said the man was Roux. 

 

The Americans denied any knowledge of Souetre being in Dallas and also pointed out that Roux in fact was in the Dallas at the time.

 

The French talked to Roux and determined he had left Texas of his own volition--was not expelled--and they had no reason to suspect he was involved in the JFKA.  He was unlikely to have been the source of the reporter's expulsion story.

 

The French naturally turned their suspicions to Souetre as the reporter's source using Roux as an alias..  They asked the Americans about Souetre, and only Souetre, but did include Roux as one of Souetre's aliases to help the Americans investigate.  

 

The FBI acknowledged that the CIA had a file on Souetre (which has never been released) from earlier contact with him.  But the Americans did not want to talk about Souetre. Hence their diversion to Roux who they knew would lead nowhere. Indeed when the Roux angle fizzled, the French inquiry was closed 8 days after it began.  The French probably suspected that was all they were going to get from the Americans.

 

It turns out Roux was in Montreal at the time of the reporter's alleged meeting with the Frenchman who told of being expelled. He did talk to the reporter, he said, but only by phone, not in person.  He denied saying anything about being expelled.

 

The reporter did not publish his story until one month after the alleged incident.  Why?  Such a blockbuster, with such implications that even the French authorities took seriously and investigated. You would think he would want to get the story out there right away.

 

I think it was because the story was fiction and the reporter needed time to work out the details. The reporter (Fensterwald referred to him as a "sometime reporter", a small clue) was interested in the JFKA.  When he talked by phone with Roux, Roux told him he didn't think the murder was done by Oswald.  There had to have been a conspiracy of some sort.  

 

From there it was easy to imagine that if one or more assassins were hired to murder JFK, they would have to be hustled out of Dallas as soon as possible. That's undeniable. There's the hook for the story.  All he needed was a person to tell him of the expulsion and he had his story.  He avoided naming anyone in the story, but gave up Roux when the police questioned him. 

 

The reporter also added embellishments, like that his source called him back 8 or10 times thereafter, desperate to find out what he had blurted out in a drunken stupor.  But if he had also talked by phone with Roux he would have realized that Souetre and Roux were different people and the story begins to unravel.

 

The point is, establishing that Roux was not expelled from Dallas or likely involved in the JFKA tells us nothing about Souetre's possible involvement. That's still on the table, whether or not you believe the reporter's story.

 

In the early 80s when Fensterwald was in Paris, he asked French authorities for any file they had on Souetre. They refused, citing as I recall, privacy concerns. Souetre was still alive.  He died in 2001. 

 

The ARRB had the authority to seek records from foreign sources, tho they had to work with a largely uncooperative State Dept.  Perhaps they would have gotten the same answer from the French as Fensterwald, but now NARA has that job and we have your lawsuit, Bill.

 

I know your plate is full, but asking the French for their file on Souetre, which should include a lot more information than whether he was expelled from Dallas, seems like a good idea.  While you're at it, what about the CIA's file on Souetre?

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

 asking the French for their file on Souetre, which should include a lot more information than whether he was expelled from Dallas, seems like a good idea

Roger,

That might prove frustrating. With the help of Denis Morissette, I once wrote the French National Archives and asked them for the names of the people who had been tried with Jean-Rene Souetre in December, 1961.

The answered me back and said no. It was classified.

(Even though accounts of the trial had been published in newspapers at the time).

Steve Thomas

[Roger Odisio]

19 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Roger,

That might prove frustrating. With the help of Denis Morissette, I once wrote the French National Archives and asked them for the names of the people who had been tried with Jean-Rene Souetre in December, 1961.

The answered me back and said no. It was classified.

(Even though accounts of the trial had been published in newspapers at the time).

Steve Thomas

I don't doubt that, Steve.   That's why NARA making the request, under order of the court to fulfill the JFK Act, is the best chance to get action from the French.

[Ron Bulman]

Here is something else about Souetre from Coup in Dallas I'd never read before.  I haven't looked in the end notes yet regarding a source.  Maybe others are already familiar with this.  Pages 426-427.

About mid-1963, according to a former member of the SAC (de Gaulle's special anti-OAS police), who knew Souetre very well, Souetre did the following in April-May 1963:

(a) met [the CIA's] Howard Hunt in Madrid (b) went to the Caribbean with Varga, Matron and Buscia; went to New Orleans and met with Carlos Bringuier (DB); (d) went to Dallas and met with General Edwin Walker (DB); (e) went to Lake Pontchartrain and helped train anti-Castro Cubans (DB).  It is known, in any event, that during this period (Souetre) had many contacts with ani-Castro Cubans.  It is also known that he visited Spain in July 1963.  DB means noted in the Date Book.

Author Peter Kross wrote in 2012 that "it is believed that Souetre met with [the CIA's assassination program coordinator] William Harvey at Plantation Key to plot strategy.  . . .  He adds to the Plantation Key claim by stating:  According to researchers looking into the events at Plantation Key, Souetre told that ten Cuban exiles were to be sent to the Lake Pontchartrain camp from Miami in July 1963, where they were to receive further military training.

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

About mid-1963, according to a former member of the SAC (de Gaulle's special anti-OAS police), who knew Souetre very well, Souetre did the following in April-May 1963:

((b) went to the Caribbean with Varga, Matron and Buscia; 

Ron,

You could also say that the member of SAC, who knew Souetre well, and lied about him a lot...

FYI: Lazlo Varga was arrested in September of 1962 and was put on trial in January of 1963. 

He was sentenced to 10 years in prison, and confined to the Saint Martin de Re prison on the Ile de Re.

He was released in 1967 in a general amnesty.

Steve Thomas 

[Ron Bulman]

Hi Steve.  Now I remember, these are the two guys you were discussing with Leslie Sharp and another poster 3-4 months ago in another thread.  You provided pictures of them in prison I believe.  The other poster questioned their authenticity (?).  I'm not, your work is always solid.

What I do wonder about is a source in Coup in Dallas.  On page 413 in an indented portion it describes Souetre and Hungarians Vango/Varga and Marton arriving on a commercial flight in Mexico City on 11/12/63.  With multiple passports under different aliases and $1,000 each in US currency.  I think there may be a source listed in the end notes but they are not attributed to a specific point in a chapter and I can't figure this one out.  I respect Hank Albarelli's work after buying and reading A Secret Order a few years back, along with comments on here about his work.

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/19/2023 at 8:30 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Author Peter Kross wrote in 2012 that "it is believed that Souetre met with [the CIA's assassination program coordinator] William Harvey at Plantation Key to plot strategy.  . . .  He adds to the Plantation Key claim by stating:  According to researchers looking into the events at Plantation Key, Souetre told that ten Cuban exiles were to be sent to the Lake Pontchartrain camp from Miami in July 1963, where they were to receive further military training.

This part made me think, I've read of Harvey in Florida in maybe April 1963.  After he was sent to be COS Rhome.  Someone Would Have Talked by Larry Hancock?  Yep.  Most likely met with Roselli, possibly Morales in Miami, rented a boat for a fishing trip (?).

But I thought, Plantation Key was mentioned somewhere.  Which led to Larry's Tipping Point.  Bingo.  

In April 1963, William Harvey traveled to Miami between April 13 and April 21, staying for three days at a hotel in Plantation Key, Florida.  . . .  While in Miami, Harvey met with at least two other individuals at hotels in Miami (the Eden Rock and Fontainbleau), one almost certainly being John Rosselli, and the other a senior officer from JMWAVE, either Moore or Morales.  . . .  Harvey and Morales traveled to the Florida Keys, staying in a Plantation Key motel for at least three days; from there calls were made and a private boat was chartered for travel to Islamorada, further out in the island chain.  Islamorada housed a CIA facility which supported maritime missions into Cuban waters.

From this and further comments Larry seems pretty clear here.  This was about ongoing Castro assassination attempts.

The reference to Plantation Key in Coup in Dallas is I think attributed in the end notes to Peter Kross JFK: The French Connection, though not specifically.  I'd never heard of him.  Given the context of the few reviews on amazon I have to wonder about his source.

Elucidation by others is always appreciated, if not offensive.  

[Steve Thomas]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Hi Steve.  Now I remember, these are the two guys you were discussing with Leslie Sharp and another poster 3-4 months ago in another thread.  You provided pictures of them in prison I believe.  The other poster questioned their authenticity (?).  I'm not, your work is always solid.

What I do wonder about is a source in Coup in Dallas.  On page 413 in an indented portion it describes Souetre and Hungarians Vango/Varga and Marton arriving on a commercial flight in Mexico City on 11/12/63.

Ron,

You've seen that Varga was already in prison by that time.

Marton had been arrested on September 10, 1963 in Paris. It made the newspapers all over the world.

On November 20th, two days before JFK's assassination, Marton was sentenced to 20 years in prison and shipped off to the same prison on Re.

Steve Thomas