The REAL reason why Oswald went to Irving on 11.21.63

[Bill Brown]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:32 AM, Gil Jesus said:

I don't have a problem with Oswald using a 27 inch paper bag for his lunch if that was the only size bag available from the Paine home. They went shopping. They had kids. They bought lots of groceries. Personally, I don't find anything extraordinary about them having large bags at the house.

In fact, Frazier described the bag he saw as a "large department store paper bag".

 

Large department store bags aren't put together with tape.

Certain facts remain:

That no witness ever saw him bring a 38 inch package to work that day.

That the FBI could not identify the three loose fibers they found in the "gunsack" as coming from the blanket in the Paine garage.

That the FBI could find no evidence that the rifle was ever in the "gunsack".

That's just a few.

Add to that the fact that Frazier told the FBI that he, "does not feel he is in a position to state that the original ( CE 142 ) is or is not the sack" that Oswald brought to work that morning. ( CE 2009, 24 H 410 )

As a result, Commission counsel never presented Frazier with CE 142 and asked him to identify it under oath.

Why not ?

Because Frazier was the witness who got the best look at the bag and he knew damned well that wasn't the bag. He knew the bag he saw didn't have tape on it.

It WAS shown to his sister during her testimony ( 2 H 249 ) and she was asked to identify it.

She never did positively identify it.

So here you have two witnesses whose estimations on the length of the bag are consistent with the length of curtain rods and who never positively identified CE142 as the bag they saw.

Not only that, their estimations are so precise they corroborate each other, leaving one to believe that either they coordinated the length between them or that they are telling the truth.

In other words, there's no way these witnesses could be wrong about the length of the package they claimed to see.

You're talking about almost a foot. IMO, there's no way they could be that far off.

And besides the evidence indicates that CE 142 was not the bag they saw on 11/22/63.

 

 

"I don't have a problem with Oswald using a 27 inch paper bag for his lunch if that was the only size bag available from the Paine home."

 

But... do you have a problem with Oswald carrying his lunch in that 27 inch bag tucked up underneath his armpit?

 

[Ron Bulman]

Ruth testified to the WC she did not unload a rifle after her long trip to DC to see her CIA related sister and dad, the Island, back through New Orleans to pick up Marina, then when they got to back Irving No rifle.  Michael, who helped unload the station wagon said the same to the WC, no rifle.

Regarding the it looked like a rifle might have been lying under the blanket.  If you sleep at night with a blanket over you and slide out from under it in the morning when you get up, does it look like you?  Much less if you throw the cover off.  This has been ludicrous from the start.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

This is a really good point.

 

If Oswald helped load a rifle into the car leaving New Orleans, why did he go somewhere else and risk other people discovering it at the other end?

[Gil Jesus]

9 hours ago, Mart Hall said:

Another big red light, as pointed out in the final sentence on your website, is why did the Dallas Police need to take prints from the curtain rods?

If some curtain rods had been discovered at the TSBD then it would make sense that they be dusted. But we are supposed to believe that no rods were not found at the TSBD and the rods that had been dusted were located in the Paine's garage.  

As some rods had been dusted (and along with the other evidence) I'm inclined to believe that LHO did bring some rods to the TSBD and a cover up followed in order to sell the untruth that LHO brought a rifle in to work that day. 

These are all excellent points:

Mart's question that, why would they dust curtain rods from the Paine garage if those rods never left the garage ?

Ron's point that, they loaded and unloaded the Paine station wagon when they moved Marina back from New Orleans, why didn't they see the rifle ?

And Jim's question that, why did Oswald go to Mexico and risk having his rifle found when they unloaded the car back at the Paine house ?

[Bill Brown]

9 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

These are all excellent points:

Mart's question that, why would they dust curtain rods from the Paine garage if those rods never left the garage ?

Ron's point that, they loaded and unloaded the Paine station wagon when they moved Marina back from New Orleans, why didn't they see the rifle ?

And Jim's question that, why did Oswald go to Mexico and risk having his rifle found when they unloaded the car back at the Paine house ?

 

How about Oswald tucking his lunch up underneath his armpit as he walked toward work that morning?  That's perfectly normal to you?

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:54 AM, Gil Jesus said:

And it wasn't for his rifle.

https://jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/1637/real-oswald-went-irving-on

Alright, I finally got around to reading your excellent article. I think you are correct.

I have long suspected that Oswald was telling the truth when he told the police that the only thing he brought to work that day was his lunch and that he brought in a large bag. As I've said before, I used to use the old standard brown grocery bags to bring my lunch to work. I did so because they were free and plenty big enough. And we should remember that Marina corroborated Oswald's claim that he took his lunch to work that day.

Did Lee Harvey Oswald Carry Curtain Rods? : The JFK Assassination (22november1963.org.uk)

 

[Bill Brown]

On 6/17/2023 at 10:18 PM, Bill Brown said:

 

"I don't have a problem with Oswald using a 27 inch paper bag for his lunch if that was the only size bag available from the Paine home."

 

But... do you have a problem with Oswald carrying his lunch in that 27 inch bag tucked up underneath his armpit?

 

 

This needs to be addressed.

 

[David Von Pein]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:21 PM, Michael Griffith said:

I have long suspected that Oswald was telling the truth when he told the police that the only thing he brought to work that day was his lunch and that he brought in a large bag.

If Oswald was really telling the truth to the police about his lunch, then you've got to wonder why Oswald told Buell Frazier that he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Frazier specifically remembers Lee having NO LUNCH BAG with him at all on 11/22/63 and Frazier also specifically remembered Oswald saying he was going to buy his lunch that day (see the testimony below).

----------------------

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "When he [LHO] rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22. He didn't bring his lunch that day."

[Later....]

JOE BALL -- "Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm

---------------------

Do conspiracy believers really think Buell Frazier was the one who was lying about Lee Oswald's lunch?

Also see --- http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/#The-Paper-Bag

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Cory Santos]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

If Oswald was really telling the truth to the police about his lunch, then you've got to wonder why Oswald told Buell Frazier that he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Frazier specifically remembers Lee having NO LUNCH BAG with him at all on 11/22/63 and Frazier also specifically remembered Oswald saying he was going to buy his lunch that day (see the testimony below).

----------------------

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "When he [LHO] rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22. He didn't bring his lunch that day."

[Later....]

JOE BALL -- "Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?"

MR. FRAZIER -- "You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm

---------------------

Do conspiracy believers really think Buell Frazier was the one who was lying about Lee Oswald's lunch?

Also see --- http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/#The-Paper-Bag

 

Couple of points then.  First, Frazier testified that he thought the shots came from the underpass. W.C. Testimony.  Page 234.   So you evidently believe him when it fits your conclusions but ignore the rest of his testimony.   Ok.  

Second, what was LHO eating on the second floor before the shooting if he did not bring a lunch?  LHO eating his lunch was witnessed so do you DVP really think testimony seeing him on the second floor is a lie?  At any point was he on the first floor after 11 a.m.?

Your logic here does not make sense.   Either he was or he was not seen on the second floor.   If he was and he was eating, he could have brought his lunch in the package.  If he bought his lunch there is no evidence that he did so.  So why was he on the second floor before and after the shooting if he was not eating?  That makes no sense unless he was eating.

Perhaps the better answer is Frazier was honestly mistaken.  

[David Von Pein]

25 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

LHO eating his lunch was witnessed...

You're surely not placing an ounce of faith in the statements of Carolyn Arnold....are you Cory? If so, I think you should re-evaluate your position.

http://DVP's JFK Archives / Carolyn Arnold

And other than Carolyn Arnold, who else do you have that said they saw Oswald actually eating on 11/22?

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Michael Griffith]

On 6/17/2023 at 10:18 PM, Bill Brown said:

"I don't have a problem with Oswald using a 27 inch paper bag for his lunch if that was the only size bag available from the Paine home."

But... do you have a problem with Oswald carrying his lunch in that 27 inch bag tucked up underneath his armpit?

You don't know that Oswald carried the bag tucked under his armpit. You are taking Frazier's word for this and are rejecting Dougherty's clear, adamant recollection that Oswald had nothing in his hands when he entered the TSBD. 

And if the paper bag in evidence is the one Oswald carried, and if Oswald carried the disassembled Carcano in that bag, why was there not one speck of oil in/on the bag? 

[Paul Cummings]

Here comes the wiping and fibers found inside the bag.

[Cory Santos]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

You're surely not placing an ounce of faith in the statements of Carolyn Arnold....are you Cory? If so, I think you should re-evaluate your position.

http://DVP's JFK Archives / Carolyn Arnold

And other than Carolyn Arnold, who else do you have that said they saw Oswald actually eating on 11/22?

 

You did not respond about Frazier saying the shots came from the underpass.  

[Ron Ege]

5 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

You don't know that Oswald carried the bag tucked under his armpit. You are taking Frazier's word for this and are rejecting Dougherty's clear, adamant recollection that Oswald had nothing in his hands when he entered the TSBD. 

And if the paper bag in evidence is the one Oswald carried, and if Oswald carried the disassembled Carcano in that bag, why was there not one speck of oil in/on the bag? 

Michael, Bill, Gil, et al - thanks.

Going with the supposition that Oswald did carry his lunch to work that morning in what has been described as the typical 27 inch department store bag/sack, could he not, for whatever reason, just cupped the bottom with his hand and tucked the top under his armpit - to have both hands available to zip up his jacket?

I would think that even a 27 inch bag/sack with just a small lunch therein, would collapse easily so as to fit in the crook of his arm, whilst doing so. Just a thought.

No, I don't reject Oswald "ditching" the bag or Dougherty misremembering.  Oh, for a good TSBD CCTV system back then!  

 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

You did not respond about Frazier saying the shots came from the underpass.  

He, like many other witnesses, was simply incorrect about this. He was fooled by the acoustics that existed in Dealey Plaza.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/dealey-plaza-earwitnesses.html

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by David Von Pein