Lineups 1 & 2: What the witnesses saw

[Gil Jesus]

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one Gil.

DId not know about the handcuffing.  Whew.

[Gil Jesus]

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice one Gil.

DId not know about the handcuffing.  Whew.

Thank You. Det. Clark testified that he and his partner Perry were handcuffed to Oswald and Don Ables was not handcuffed. As the late Larry Harris has said, this gave the witnesses the impression that Oswald was the suspect handcuffed between two detectives. The Dallas Police did everything they could to influence the witnesses' choices.

In addition, all three fillers testified that they were asked questions during the lineup, including their names and places of employment. All three testified that they gave fictitious answers, while Lee Harvey Oswald gave his place of employment as the Texas School Book Depository. Three and a half hours after the assassination, at the time of the first lineup, it was well known via TV and radio throughout the world that the shots had come from the TSBD.

The only way these lineups could have been any more biased against Oswald would be to have him shown with three uniformed officers while they were still in uniform.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Running-Scared-Police-Line-Up-1986.mp4

I just find it hard to believe that any professional law enforcement outfit, be it local police, a sheriff's department, state police, FBI, or whatever, would jeopardize a solid case against a suspect by using such tactics. I believe that the conduct of the police during the lineups is one piece of evidence that they were framing an innocent man.

And I can't see how anybody, including the Warren Commission, could honestly conclude that these lineups were conducted fairly.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Bill Brown]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:12 AM, Gil Jesus said:

Thank You. Det. Clark testified that he and his partner Perry were handcuffed to Oswald and Don Ables was not handcuffed. As the late Larry Harris has said, this gave the witnesses the impression that Oswald was the suspect handcuffed between two detectives. The Dallas Police did everything they could to influence the witnesses' choices.

In addition, all three fillers testified that they were asked questions during the lineup, including their names and places of employment. All three testified that they gave fictitious answers, while Lee Harvey Oswald gave his place of employment as the Texas School Book Depository. Three and a half hours after the assassination, at the time of the first lineup, it was well known via TV and radio throughout the world that the shots had come from the TSBD.

The only way these lineups could have been any more biased against Oswald would be to have him shown with three uniformed officers while they were still in uniform.

https://gil-jesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Running-Scared-Police-Line-Up-1986.mp4

I just find it hard to believe that any professional law enforcement outfit, be it local police, a sheriff's department, state police, FBI, or whatever, would jeopardize a solid case against a suspect by using such tactics. I believe that the conduct of the police during the lineups is one piece of evidence that they were framing an innocent man.

And I can't see how anybody, including the Warren Commission, could honestly conclude that these lineups were conducted fairly.

 

"In addition, all three fillers testified that they were asked questions during the lineup, including their names and places of employment. All three testified that they gave fictitious answers, while Lee Harvey Oswald gave his place of employment as the Texas School Book Depository."

 

There is nothing in the testimonial record to suggest that Oswald, during the lineups, ever stated that he worked at the Depository.  Stop making things up out of thin air.

 

[Steve Thomas]

Report on Officer's Duties by M. G. Hall in regards to the President's murder #1] Page: 1 of 4

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337510/m1/1/?q=lineups

 

WC testimony of Elmer Boyd

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/boyd.htm

 

Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see---at one of the showups---I've forgotten whether it was on this particular one whether it was someone out from--Sims asked him some questions in one of those showups.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions?
Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did he reply?
Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply.

 

WC testimony of Richard Sims

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/sims.htm

 

Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember-

Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear?
Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?
Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.
Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.
Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?
Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

 

WC testimony of James Leavelle

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/leave_j1.htm

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning?
Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes.
Mr. BALL. What questions?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice.
Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation.

 

Gil is not "making things up out of thin air"

 

Steve Thomas

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation.

 

Gil is not "making things up out of thin air"

 

Steve Thomas

Perry testified he gave fictitous answers. ( 7 H 234 )

Clark testified he gave fictitious answers. ( 7 H 238, 239 )

Ables testified that Oswald was asked questions. ( 7 H 241 )

Does Mr. Brown believe that Oswald gave a fictitious answers as well ?

What would be the purpose of Oswald giving fictitious answers ?

NO, the police gave the fictitious answers to hide the fact they were detectives.

 

[Mark Ulrik]

3 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Perry testified he gave fictitous answers. ( 7 H 234 )

Clark testified he gave fictitious answers. ( 7 H 238, 239 )

Ables testified that Oswald was asked questions. ( 7 H 241 )

Does Mr. Brown believe that Oswald gave a fictitious answers as well ?

What would be the purpose of Oswald giving fictitious answers ?

NO, the police gave the fictitious answers to hide the fact they were detectives.

I think the problem is that you made up the part where Oswald "gave his place of employment as the Texas School Book Depository".

[Steve Thomas]

So, Mr. Oswald, what is your occupation?

"Oh, I pick melons out in the fields"

Steve Thomas

Edited August 9, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Mark Ulrik]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

So, Mr. Oswald, what is your occupation?

"Oh, I pick melons out in the fields"

Steve Thomas

I note that you reject Gil's version:

Q: What do you do for a living, No. 2?

A: I'm currently employed as an order filler, Sir, and although you didn't ask specifically, it's down at the book depository, you know, the building where the cops say the shots were fired from.

[Gil Jesus]

13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

So, Mr. Oswald, what is your occupation?

"Oh, I pick melons out in the fields"

Steve Thomas

The Lone Nutters are a little upset because I dare do what the Warren Commission didn't do: show the fillers dressed the way they were in the lineups. The graphic shows how ridiculously biased the lineups were against Oswald. Not one Tippit witness described the killer as mid thirties wearing a sport coat, or having blond hair and a red vest, or short and heavy with a grey knit sweater.

NOT ONE.

It's obvious to anyone with a brain that the police were trying to influence the witnesses' choices.

And it proves that Capt. Fritz committed perjury when he testified that the fillers, "fixed themselves where they would look like prisoners" and that they "looked pretty much like anyone else". ( 4 H 212 )

That was a lie.

Since when do prisoners wear brown sport coats, red vests and grey sweaters ?

A reasonable person might ask: why would they have to go to such an extreme to build a case against a GUILTY man ?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Bill Brown]

20 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Report on Officer's Duties by M. G. Hall in regards to the President's murder #1] Page: 1 of 4

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337510/m1/1/?q=lineups

 

WC testimony of Elmer Boyd

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/boyd.htm

 

Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see---at one of the showups---I've forgotten whether it was on this particular one whether it was someone out from--Sims asked him some questions in one of those showups.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions?
Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did he reply?
Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply.

 

WC testimony of Richard Sims

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/sims.htm

 

Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember-

Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear?
Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?
Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.
Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.
Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?
Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

 

WC testimony of James Leavelle

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/leave_j1.htm

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning?
Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes.
Mr. BALL. What questions?
Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice.
Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers?
Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation.

 

Gil is not "making things up out of thin air"

 

Steve Thomas

 

Nonsense.

 

Where, in any of the above, does it say that Oswald stated that he worked at the Depository?

 

[Bill Brown]

12 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I think the problem is that you made up the part where Oswald "gave his place of employment as the Texas School Book Depository".

 

Exactly.

 

[Steve Thomas]

8 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I note that you reject Gil's version:

Q: What do you do for a living, No. 2?

A: I'm currently employed as an order filler, Sir, and although you didn't ask specifically, it's down at the book depository, you know, the building where the cops say the shots were fired from.

Mark,

Isn't that what he told the reporters out in the hall?

Somebody asked him if was in the building. He responded, of course, if I worked in that building, I was there.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

By 4:00 in the afternoon, when this lineup took place, Oswald had been under arrest and interrogated for approximately two hours. Everybody in that building knew who he was and where he worked, including Sims and Boyd, who had been in the TSBD, set out for Irving to go apprehend him, and sat in on his interrogation.

If he had lied in the lineup on what his occupation was, there would have been howls of protest from the police authorities.

This is just silliness.

Steve Thomas

[Mark Ulrik]

23 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mark,

Isn't that what he told the reporters out in the hall?

Somebody asked him if was in the building. He responded, of course, if I worked in that building, I was there.

Steve Thomas

Completely different question and circumstances.

12 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

By 4:00 in the afternoon, when this lineup took place, Oswald had been under arrest and interrogated for approximately two hours. Everybody in that building knew who he was and where he worked, including Sims and Boyd, who had been in the TSBD, set out for Irving to go apprehend him, and sat in on his interrogation.

If he had lied in the lineup on what his occupation was, there would have been howls of protest from the police authorities.

But occupation and place of employment are different (albeit related) concepts. It's quite feasible to state one without revealing the other. Also, why would a suspect be required to tell the truth when the other participants aren't? As I understand it, the purpose of asking questions during a police lineup isn't even to elicit truth, but rather to enhance the identification process by adding sound.