Who were the Secret Service men at the Library?

[Michael Kalin]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I'd never heard about the 20-40 armed civilians at the Library. Can you tell me where you found this?

Steve, Weston cites Larry A. Sneed's No More Silence. Here's the text:

"While en route with Officers Toney, Buhk, and Taylor, we received word that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff. As a result, we went straight to that scene. When we arrived in Oak Cliff, we received a report that a man had been seen running into the Oak Cliff Library about three blocks from where we were then located. When we got there, there must have been in the neighborhood of 30 to 40 armed people there, most of them being civilians, though some could have been deputies or constables in plain clothes. I thought we were going to have another Battle of the Little Big Horn right there. I don’t know where they all came from!" [No More Silence p. 264]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I wonder which "suspect" the man was prepared to identify. I say this because in his WC testimony, Hill told the Commission that,

WC testimony of DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill:

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

"We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."

 

Doubtful anyone was in the car with Hill. The "someone" was fictitious bait to reel in suspects.

Thanks for Hill's description of the killer he gave to WC. It reminds me of my failure to obtain a complete description of Harry Olsen. All I have so far is a photo taken when he was a teenager. He had bushy hair. The FBI was keen on Kay, listed her attribs, but did not describe Harry. AFAICT neither did anyone else. Help will be appreciated.

Please be patient regarding "Harvey Lee Oswald." It's an unfamiliar concept, and I'm going to check out the linked references.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Joe Bauer]

How did that many armed civilians even know about a suspect in the library in that short of time? Beating regular Dallas PD officers there?

Did they all have police band scanners and radios in their cars?

I think the account is an exaggeration.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Please be patient regarding "Harvey Lee Oswald." It's an unfamiliar concept, and I'm going to check out the linked references.

Michael,

I have compiled a list of 49 such references in various government documents I have run across.

You can see it here, if you're interested:

https://www.harveyandlee.net/HLO/Harvey_Lee_Oswald_Bibliography.html

Steve Thomas

[Michael Kalin]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

I have compiled a list of 49 such references in various government documents I have run across.

You can see it here, if you're interested:

https://www.harveyandlee.net/HLO/Harvey_Lee_Oswald_Bibliography.html

Steve, a remarkable list. Without plunging into the actual documents, getting a sense of Harvey & Lee implications -- the name of the website says as much!

Question, before I work up a head of steam, where are we going with this?

[Michael Crane]

Fun Fact:

Singer Meat Loaf was pulled over by a Secret Service agent (who was on foot in the middle of the road) on his way to Parkland Hospital.The Secret Service agent took over the driving duties to Parkland Hospital.

 

*Someone showing Secret Service credentials.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Michael Kalin]

Steve, running down the list of 49 "Harvey Lee Oswald" references it's not obvious where they might relate to the library incident. This led to the discovery of an expanded Tippit murder article now in five parts. Armstrong pursues many interesting angles, but the library is not one of them. This is disappointing, as his idea that Tippit waited at Gloco to taxi Harvey to the Texas Theater after stepping off the Marsalis bus does not make sense. Why wouldn't Harvey take the Beckley bus in the first place?

By excluding the library from serious consideration he overlooks a simple reason why Harvey had two dollar bill halves, one each for two separate locations. The library was destination A, and the TT was alternate B. This is spy craft, no? Because of the library void there is nothing at all about "Little Big Horn" and the secret service impostors encountered by Buhk.

[Steve Thomas]

45 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

Steve, running down the list of 49 "Harvey Lee Oswald" references it's not obvious where they might relate to the library incident.

. The library was destination A, and the TT was alternate B. This is spy craft, no? Because of the library void there is nothing at all about "Little Big Horn" and the secret service impostors encountered by Buhk.

Michael,

A couple of things:

1) I only brought up the 5'10" guy because you had mentioned the suspect in Jerry Hill's car. I admit I extrapolated and did a little free association. I personally think that there is a link between the 5'10", 165lb guy that crops u[ in various places, and the name Harvey Lee Oswald; but that's just me.

My apologies.

2) The reseaarch I have done on Harvey Lee Oswald is separate and distinct from the Harvey and Lee hypothesis. In my mind, Harvey Lee Oswald is a name, a file, a dossier that someone created. I do not know who created it or why. I think it was supposed to be closely held, and somehow it got out and was widely shared among other government agencies. As I told someone once, for a Secret Service agent to interview freight ship passenger, Billy Joe Lord, and to physically write down the name, Harvey Lee Oswald seven times, something like five months after the assassination is not a typo, it's muscle memory.

3) As for someone writing about the Library and not mentioning Marvin Buhk and the account of talking to Secret Service agents, I can't explain it.

Maybe because it's not mentioned anywhere else?

I don't know.

I once did a study of all the places where Secret Service agents were reported to be, at a time and place where no known Secret Service agents were supposed to be.

The Library was one of those places. You can find a copy here, if you're interested: I called it, "Secret Service: On the Knoll and Beyond".

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

Steve Thomas

[Michael Kalin]

17 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

3) As for someone writing about the Library and not mentioning Marvin Buhk and the account of talking to Secret Service agents, I can't explain it.

Maybe because it's not mentioned anywhere else?

I don't know.

I once did a study of all the places where Secret Service agents were reported to be, at a time and place where no known Secret Service agents were supposed to be.

The Library was one of those places. You can find a copy here, if you're interested: I called it, "Secret Service: On the Knoll and Beyond".

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

McBride mentions the library in Into the Nightmare (p. 464), including info about Walker & Buhk, also this from Hamby: "Then what seemed to Hamby like twenty to thirty policemen converged on him with weapons drawn." This confirms Cunningham's assessment of the crowd, and he also gets a nod in the book, but there's no attempt to examine the involvement of the sheriff's men.

A possible link to the murder scene comes from Eddie Kinsley, Butler's assistant on board the ambulance. He saw a man who resembled Oswald cross Jefferson in front of the ambulance and proceed in the direction of the library. The incident is described in Bill Drenas' Tippit After the Murder, which can be found at Dealey Plaza UK.
http://dealeyplazauk.com/research/collections/harry-livingstone/documents/

Click on the Tippit link and download Tippit 1.pdf. See pages 53-54 for this incident.

There's a timing issue. The ambulance left Dudley Hughes at 1:18. This precedes the commotion at the library, but it's a step in the right direction.

Thanks for the extensive Secret Service material, much to contemplate.

[George Govus]

Indeed, Michael, thanks, Steve. And thanks to Michael pointing out the DPUK archive, where I note there is also a folder of documents on the Secret Service.