Larry Hancock and David Attlee Phillips

[Eddy Bainbridge]

Sorry for the provocative title, hopefully what follows gets me off the hook!.

This is a quote from the back of my copy of Nexus by Larry Hancock :

"My private opinion is that JFK was done in by a conspiracy, likely including American Intelligence officers" - David Phillips, July 1986 to Kevin Walsh, former HSCA staff member.

I have just watched a presentation on Youtube by Larry Hancock (and Bill SImpich) on Staff D. In the presentation Larry seems to suggest that David Phillips may not have been as central to, and not as well informed of, Executive action, as might have previously been assumed. The presentation does not go further into this , but the issue fascinates me.

David Philips, allegedly made a confession to his brother shortly before his death to the effect there was a conspiracy. He supposedly stated Oswald made a 'mistake' during the assassination. In a debate with Mark Lane he allegedly stated that he believed Oswald did not visit Mexico City. I have just read somewhere of a claim that his 'retirement' was in fact another CIA assignment.  These are all strange snippets of information from an entirely unreliable source (not the Larry Hancock bits!!).

Can we give ANYTHING Phillips said credibility? Can we make a case that his part of the plot was compartmentalised?, and that after the assassination, he suffered guilt at his unwitting involvement, and possibly bitterness towards the CIA and plotters?

 

I hope you respond Larry, and forgive the association in the title.

[Benjamin Cole]

42 minutes ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Sorry for the provocative title, hopefully what follows gets me off the hook!.

This is a quote from the back of my copy of Nexus by Larry Hancock :

"My private opinion is that JFK was done in by a conspiracy, likely including American Intelligence officers" - David Phillips, July 1986 to Kevin Walsh, former HSCA staff member.

I have just watched a presentation on Youtube by Larry Hancock (and Bill SImpich) on Staff D. In the presentation Larry seems to suggest that David Phillips may not have been as central to, and not as well informed of, Executive action, as might have previously been assumed. The presentation does not go further into this , but the issue fascinates me.

David Philips, allegedly made a confession to his brother shortly before his death to the effect there was a conspiracy. He supposedly stated Oswald made a 'mistake' during the assassination. In a debate with Mark Lane he allegedly stated that he believed Oswald did not visit Mexico City. I have just read somewhere of a claim that his 'retirement' was in fact another CIA assignment.  These are all strange snippets of information from an entirely unreliable source (not the Larry Hancock bits!!).

Can we give ANYTHING Phillips said credibility? Can we make a case that his part of the plot was compartmentalised?, and that after the assassination, he suffered guilt at his unwitting involvement, and possibly bitterness towards the CIA and plotters?

 

I hope you respond Larry, and forgive the association in the title.

Man, I sure wish Kevin Walsh had recorded that interview. 

I theorize (speculate) Phillips had set up a false flag op that day in Dallas, and then it went sideways on him.  Even Phillips did not know what had happened, so that is why he offers an "opinion" and not a statement he regards as fact, or as a very solid suspicion. 

So it goes. 

 

[Mervyn Hagger]

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Man, I sure wish Kevin Walsh had recorded that interview. 

I theorize (speculate) Phillips had set up a false flag op that day in Dallas, and then it went sideways on him.  Even Phillips did not know what had happened, so that is why he offers an "opinion" and not a statement he regards as fact, or as a very solid suspicion. 

So it goes. 

 

I think that you hit that nail on the head with your opinion. I believe that is exactly what happened. There was more than one group that wanted to get rid of the Kennedys, but only one of them (Mafia), had the guts to pull the trigger. The lies surrounding both the Kennedy brothers and the lies surrounding David Atlee Phillips and company shut them up completely. The Mafia had a win-win murder plan in which those associated with their victim dare not talk for fear of bringing down the wrath of all upon themselves.

[Larry Hancock]

OK Eddy, you certainly have my attention...grin.  Actually this discussion raises the opportunity for some remarks about attribution and context that should be considered first in these discussions. 

First off, Phillips remark to the committee staffer was made casually, he appears to have had a good relationship with Walsh and Phillips was never shy about expressing an opinion.  We don't know the exact context of that remark but we do know that the source, the date and we have a quote to work with.  We also know that during the HSCA period Phillips was working on a manuscript (fictional) which would also have connected an Oswald operation to the CIA.  Its pure speculation, but his remark, the manuscript etc could have been attempts to shift attention from him personally and towards CIA activities going on around Oswald - something there is good reason to suspect that Phillips would have known about.

Given that Phillips actually wrote more books than Night Watch and that he put in the statement that Oswald did take a money to kill JFK from the Cubans in the Consulate (the story he and the MC station pushed days after the assassination) we can probably assume he knew enough about bogus stories in MC and the cover up of a variety of actions against the Cubans and the diplomatic facilities to be aware that some games were in play during the period of Oswald's appearance there - but that he also realized there were things going on he didn't understand, and which were suspicious.

Its also important to remember that Phillips actually called out David Morales (by nick name not true name) as a really badass dirty actions operator (which is interesting since Phillips did not have that much personal contact with Morales and against the fact that Morales was in staff positions, not normally in back alleys - regardless of being a badass), Morales got so upset he went to the CIA and wanted to charge Phillips with violating his privacy (Phillips had even directed a reporter to him) and there was no love lost between the two at that point.  Which might imply that Phillips had some suspicion of Morales - interesting because one of their few operational linkages had to do with a mission to bring Castro's sister out of Cuba on November 22, something which aborted but something that did involve both Morales and Sforza. 

On the second point related to attribution and context, the remark was second hand from Phillip's nephew (who I did communicate with on multiple occasions) so context there is important.  This was a death bed event where Phillips was literally dying and all his brother had to say to him was to ask him about JFK...and he didn't even ask him that outright, as I understand it he asked his brother if David had been in Dallas.  And David refused to answer him.  Personally at that point if I am dying and all my brother has to say is that- well I suspect I would hang up (well perhaps there would be other words but not about Dallas). So from the context  its always been hard for me to see that as a confession.

Hope some of that helps the discussion,  Larry

 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

I think that you hit that nail on the head with your opinion. I believe that is exactly what happened. There was more than one group that wanted to get rid of the Kennedys, but only one of them (Mafia), had the guts to pull the trigger. The lies surrounding both the Kennedy brothers and the lies surrounding David Atlee Phillips and company shut them up completely. The Mafia had a win-win murder plan in which those associated with their victim dare not talk for fear of bringing down the wrath of all upon themselves.

MH--

The problems I have the "Mob did it" version is the extensive backstory, or biography build on LHO (including easing LHO back into the US) and then the very dubious autopsy and WC thereafter---all beyond the ken of the Mob (at least I hope so). 

Hermininio Diaz and Eladio Del Valle have been said to be both mob-linked and CIA assets. If they did the deed in Dallas, maybe one could posit it was a Mob deed, in a fashion. 

But other details---the guy with Secret Service credentials near the Grassy Knoll area, and the fact it was CIA back then producing Secret Service credentials....

My guess (and it is a guess) is CIA-Miami Station, Cuban exiles and related US mercs, military. Maybe only two guys from Miami, who had a password to gain LHO's cooperation. 

I favor a very small op as an explanation for the JFKA. Guys who knew each other from combat, all within one organization, had worked with each other for a while. 

Just IMHO.  

 

[Mervyn Hagger]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MH--

The problems I have the "Mob did it" version is the extensive backstory, or biography build on LHO (including easing LHO back into the US) and then the very dubious autopsy and WC thereafter---all beyond the ken of the Mob (at least I hope so). 

Hermininio Diaz and Eladio Del Valle have been said to be both mob-linked and CIA assets. If they did the deed in Dallas, maybe one could posit it was a Mob deed, in a fashion. 

But other details---the guy with Secret Service credentials near the Grassy Knoll area, and the fact it was CIA back then producing Secret Service credentials....

My guess (and it is a guess) is CIA-Miami Station, Cuban exiles and related US mercs, military. Maybe only two guys from Miami, who had a password to gain LHO's cooperation. 

I favor a very small op as an explanation for the JFKA. Guys who knew each other from combat, all within one organization, had worked with each other for a while. 

Just IMHO.  

 

Whatever LHO was doing he was not a part of the real plot.

Occam's Razor and Blakey's version go hand in glove - except for the missing third dimension.

But the missing third dimension was part of the cover-up and not the plot to kill.

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

OK Eddy, you certainly have my attention...grin.  Actually this discussion raises the opportunity for some remarks about attribution and context that should be considered first in these discussions. 

First off, Phillips remark to the committee staffer was made casually, he appears to have had a good relationship with Walsh and Phillips was never shy about expressing an opinion.  We don't know the exact context of that remark but we do know that the source, the date and we have a quote to work with.  We also know that during the HSCA period Phillips was working on a manuscript (fictional) which would also have connected an Oswald operation to the CIA.  Its pure speculation, but his remark, the manuscript etc could have been attempts to shift attention from him personally and towards CIA activities going on around Oswald - something there is good reason to suspect that Phillips would have known about.

Given that Phillips actually wrote more books than Night Watch and that he put in the statement that Oswald did take a money to kill JFK from the Cubans in the Consulate (the story he and the MC station pushed days after the assassination) we can probably assume he knew enough about bogus stories in MC and the cover up of a variety of actions against the Cubans and the diplomatic facilities to be aware that some games were in play during the period of Oswald's appearance there - but that he also realized there were things going on he didn't understand, and which were suspicious.

Its also important to remember that Phillips actually called out David Morales (by nick name not true name) as a really badass dirty actions operator (which is interesting since Phillips did not have that much personal contact with Morales and against the fact that Morales was in staff positions, not normally in back alleys - regardless of being a badass), Morales got so upset he went to the CIA and wanted to charge Phillips with violating his privacy (Phillips had even directed a reporter to him) and there was no love lost between the two at that point.  Which might imply that Phillips had some suspicion of Morales - interesting because one of their few operational linkages had to do with a mission to bring Castro's sister out of Cuba on November 22, something which aborted but something that did involve both Morales and Sforza. 

On the second point related to attribution and context, the remark was second hand from Phillip's nephew (who I did communicate with on multiple occasions) so context there is important.  This was a death bed event where Phillips was literally dying and all his brother had to say to him was to ask him about JFK...and he didn't even ask him that outright, as I understand it he asked his brother if David had been in Dallas.  And David refused to answer him.  Personally at that point if I am dying and all my brother has to say is that- well I suspect I would hang up (well perhaps there would be other words but not about Dallas). So from the context  its always been hard for me to see that as a confession.

Hope some of that helps the discussion,  Larry

 

Larry,

Is the DAP manuscript of his "fictional" story connecting our "Oswald" to a CIA operation available anywhere? 

Also, can you give us more details about the relationship between Phillips and Morales? When and where did DAP call Morales a "badass dirty actions operator"? (That's really interesting and provocative.)

I agree that the DAP deathbed "confession" is so ambiguous as to be useless. Of course, DAP knew all about the "Oswald in Mexico City" legend, but how much DAP knew about what happened in Dallas on 11/22/63 is the real question. And so far, that's unanswerable.

[Larry Hancock]

The Phillips manuscript is more of an outline for a fictional work titled The AMLASH Legacy, its been discussed on the forum many times, the following is a short synopsis Paul Trejo posted on the forum back in 2017; you should be able to locate actual pages of the AMLASH legacy that are available via an internet, I received a paper copy from Malcolm Blunt years ago:;

Paul B.,

Surely you've heard of the fictional work written by CIA agent David Atlee Phillips, which he named, THE AMLASH LEGACY (1988).

This is a work of fiction, and yet in it the main character, who is a CIA agent,  makes a claim about Lee Harvey Oswald, as follows.  The CIA agent character was guiding Lee Harvey Oswald to disguise himself as a Communist and an FPCC officer in New Orleans, in order to infiltrate the Communists.  The purpose of this charade was to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Cuba, in order to assassinate Fidel Castro.

.....As David Atlee Phillips says in this fictional work, this fictional CIA agent even worked with Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City to try to obtain a visa, posing as an FPCC officer, to get into Cuba.  That visa application was still pending when --- as the fiction says -- somebody hijacked Lee Harvey Oswald from this plot to assassinate Fidel Castro into a surprise plot to assassinate JFK.

Through his fictional character, David Atlee Phillips expressed surprise that somebody would hijack Lee Harvey Oswald, but he was reportedly not surprised to learn that JFK was assassinated by exactly the same method that Oswald's team had trained to kill Fidel Castro, namely, a high-powered rifle from a high-building during an open car  motorcade.

......as to the quote from Phillips that was mine, Phillips description was in his book The Carlos Contract he referred to El Indio (Morales) "back alley" operator he had ever known. The badass take was mine..

.....As to Morales issues with Phillip's book, that began with a reporter or author that Phillips referred to Morales (don't recall which) and the incident and protest comes from Morales's personnel file and a protest letter he sent to the CIA asking for action against Phillips for referring a reporter and discussing him as a CIA operations officer.  You would have to get the full file to locate that, I don't know that it is online, I got it the hard way, on paper.

 

 

[Mervyn Hagger]

Larry you can find this document (below) and a lot of other stuff by and about DAP at https://archive.org/details/nsia-PhillipsDavidAtlee/nsia-PhillipsDavidAtlee/Phillips David Atlee 31/

[Eddy Bainbridge]

Many thanks to Larry for taking the  bait. That is extremely enlightening. The Morales information is invaluable. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

The Phillips manuscript is more of an outline for a fictional work titled The AMLASH Legacy, its been discussed on the forum many times, the following is a short synopsis Paul Trejo posted on the forum back in 2017; you should be able to locate actual pages of the AMLASH legacy that are available via an internet, I received a paper copy from Malcolm Blunt years ago:;

Paul B.,

Surely you've heard of the fictional work written by CIA agent David Atlee Phillips, which he named, THE AMLASH LEGACY (1988).

This is a work of fiction, and yet in it the main character, who is a CIA agent,  makes a claim about Lee Harvey Oswald, as follows.  The CIA agent character was guiding Lee Harvey Oswald to disguise himself as a Communist and an FPCC officer in New Orleans, in order to infiltrate the Communists.  The purpose of this charade was to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Cuba, in order to assassinate Fidel Castro.

.....As David Atlee Phillips says in this fictional work, this fictional CIA agent even worked with Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City to try to obtain a visa, posing as an FPCC officer, to get into Cuba.  That visa application was still pending when --- as the fiction says -- somebody hijacked Lee Harvey Oswald from this plot to assassinate Fidel Castro into a surprise plot to assassinate JFK.

Through his fictional character, David Atlee Phillips expressed surprise that somebody would hijack Lee Harvey Oswald, but he was reportedly not surprised to learn that JFK was assassinated by exactly the same method that Oswald's team had trained to kill Fidel Castro, namely, a high-powered rifle from a high-building during an open car  motorcade.

......as to the quote from Phillips that was mine, Phillips description was in his book The Carlos Contract he referred to El Indio (Morales) "back alley" operator he had ever known. The badass take was mine..

.....As to Morales issues with Phillip's book, that began with a reporter or author that Phillips referred to Morales (don't recall which) and the incident and protest comes from Morales's personnel file and a protest letter he sent to the CIA asking for action against Phillips for referring a reporter and discussing him as a CIA operations officer.  You would have to get the full file to locate that, I don't know that it is online, I got it the hard way, on paper.

 

 

Thanks, Larry.

I just read "The Amlash Legacy" in full thanks to Mervyn's Weisberg Archives link.

So DAP wrote a fantasy in which the CIA are the good guys, and (surprise) the "Oswald" character is the assassin, and the KGB tried to pin it on the (completely innocent of the assassination) CIA.

Uh-huh.

David Atlee Phillips may not have been in on the assassination, but he knew enough about out "Oswald" to know that guy couldn't have shot anyone, ever, let alone the president. His manuscript/outline is just another worthless apology for/paean to the CIA. 

[Larry Hancock]

I think I'm a bit more suspicious of Phillips in terms of motive.  At that point in time the HSCA was beginning to look seriously at the CIA or at least some of its officers in terms of both involvement with Oswald or perhaps even with a conspiracy.  Since I never really trust Phillips I'm more inclined to think his floating this piece at that time was a) a warning shot over the bow for certain of his fellow CIA officers not to set him up as a sacrifice,  b) to raise a flag that the investigation might not want to go either direction and find something that it should not or c) simply a diversion to confuse the inquiry by giving it an intriguing piece of disinformation with just enough truth to lead it astray until its time ran out (disinformation being a Phillips speciality).  Considering he did nothing with his manuscript (which actually might have sold extremely well given his writing skills) I have to think it was intentional and not any sort of apology for anything he had done.

[David Boylan]

I found it interesting that he named "Douglas" as the KGB agent. I wonder if Phillips was calling out William Kent who used the pseudonym of Doug Gupton when he worked for Phillips. Kent was running the DRE/AMSPELL program in 1963. Joannides was reporting up to him. Kent would later call Oswald "a useful idiot."

[Larry Hancock]

Good one David, it appears that Phillips may have taken to using insider names to point people towards officers at JMWAVE....not something his fellow officers would miss - or appreciate -  and a very interesting bit way to demonstrate he new names and things that he could toss towards the HSCA if someone sent them in his direction.

[Ron Bulman]

Forgive my muddled mind.  How might this relate to shall we say two cigarettes in the ashtray at the HSCA and his walking out on them?  Was it Lopez who wanted to file charges on him but Blakey ignored it?