Education Forum in need of P.R.?

[Benjamin Cole]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Regardless of who the "luminaries" are that spout the nonsensical JFK conspiracy theories that Jonathan Cohen and I have outlined in our posts above, the theories are still going to be nonsensical (and thoroughly embarrassing).

 

DVP--

Yes. Unfortunately, there are nutty theories about the JFKA. 

How about the theory, of long-standing, that the bullet that passed through JFK's neck then tumbled, and hit JBC sideways, leaving a large scar?

And that tumbling was proof the bullet was not a direct hit on JBC, but rather had in fact passed through JFK's neck?

I would say the long-nutters have some fantastic theories as well....

Source: Texas Archives. https://www.tsl.texas.gov/sites/default/files/public/tslac/landing/documents/jfk-damaged-clothing18.pdf

BTW: The JBC rear shirt bullet hole, as seen, is after cloth has been removed for testing. I think that resulted in the straight lines, top and bottom. 

The Mannlicher Carcano slug is 1 1/4 long, and more than 1/4 inch in diameter. The JBC rear-shirt bullet hole is just large enough to accommodate a straight shot. 

JBC's surgeon told everybody he debrided, or enlarged, the JBC's back wound in treatment. 

No matter. The LN'ers insisted the bullet had tumbled, see the big scar, and that was proof of the SBT.

So, we have proof the bullet did not tumble, and JBC's surgeon believed JBC had been hit by a direct shot. BTW, JBC's surgeon had performed 700+ bullet-wound surgeries on WWII victims during that war. JBC's surgeon even wondered aloud if JBC's wrist wound had been from yet another missile or shot. 

If JBC was hit by a direct shot...and I contend he was...what happens to the SBT? One gunsel armed with a single-shot bolt action rifle did all that shooting? 

JBC testified that bullets were entering the cab of the presidential limo as if by "automatic weapons fire." 

I think reasonable people can disagree on what happened 11/22. 

That said, yeah, we do get some nutball diaries and whatnot in here...but then the SBT does not hold water either. 

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

22 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

How about the theory, of long-standing, that the bullet that passed through JFK's neck then tumbled, and hit JBC sideways, leaving a large scar?

I provide my "tumbling" thoughts here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1147.html

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Mike Aitken]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:01 AM, Charles Blackmon said:

At this writing there are 34 people worldwide including guests viewing this forum. Meanwhile at the JFKA Discussion website there are over 3000 viewers. Why would more of the masses be interested in reading constant nonsense from the likes of disinformation agent "Richard Smith" and "Brian Doyle" than from real JFK researchers like Pat Speer, Larry Hancock, David Josephs and Jim DiEugenio? Seems like some much needed P.R. is needed.

The number average number of viewers at any given time is probably higher than that.  There are plenty of people, myself included, who browse the forum while not logged in, or who have not registered.

[Benjamin Cole]

59 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I provide my "tumbling" thoughts here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1147.html

 

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The topic of the size of the entry wound in John Connally's back and whether or not the bullet was tumbling as it entered Connally is, indeed, interesting. Dr. John Lattimer's tests clearly indicate that a Carcano/Western Cartridge bullet that has passed through a simulated JFK neck will nearly always tumble before reaching the Connally target and, hence, result in a larger-sized entry hole in the Connally target:

Quoting Dr. Lattimer:

"Five cardboard skins simulating Connally were placed the same distance from Kennedy's neck as Connally was seated in the automobile in front of the President. The Carcano bullets that made the holes in these targets had passed through a simulation of Kennedy's neck, striking only soft tissues. Five of the six bullets tumbled end over end after leaving the neck and struck Connally's skin traveling almost sideways. .... These results confirmed our previous observations that these bullets almost always tumbled after passing through a neck.

[...]

An oval hole in our simulated back of Connally was caused by our test bullet that had first passed through a simulation of Kennedy's neck, causing that bullet to wobble and start to tumble end over end. Connally's wound of entry was elongated, like the one in the center of [the test] target. The punctate round hole, with black margins, of the type that always occurred when our test bullets struck the Connally target without hitting something else first, can be seen to the right of Connally's outline in the photograph [via Figure 106 on Page 265 of "Kennedy And Lincoln"]. These bullets never wobbled or tumbled spontaneously; they were stable in their flight to the target UNLESS THEY HIT SOMETHING ELSE FIRST [DVP's emphasis], such as Kennedy's neck, whereupon they turned almost completely sideways." -- John K. Lattimer; Pages 237 and 265 of "Kennedy And Lincoln" (c.1980)

-------------

---30---

Right.

But we know from the documented bullet hole in the rear of JBC's rear shirt, that the bullet was not tumbling when it struck JBC. 

Ergo, if we believe Lattimer, the bullet that struck JBC must not have passed through JFK's throat first. 

Which leaves the SBT where?  Another koo-koo nutball theory? 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But we know from the documented bullet hole in the rear of JBC's rear shirt, that the bullet was not tumbling when it struck JBC. 

Ergo, if we believe Lattimer, the bullet that struck JBC must not have passed through JFK's throat first. 

Which leaves the SBT where?  Another koo-koo nutball theory?

There are many different reasons why the Single-Bullet Theory should be accepted as being true (all discussed here).

The "tumbling bullet" isn't the be-all/end-all deciding factor for the SBT's validity. Because even if the bullet—Commission Exhibit No. 399—wasn't tumbling at all as it entered the upper back of Governor Connally in Dealey Plaza, the SBT is still most certainly the most reasonable solution.

In fact, with or without any "tumbling", the SBT is the only truly reasonable and sensible solution that explains the initial wounding of JFK and all of Connally's wounds.

Here are a few SBT-related points I've made in the past that deserve a replay every now and then:

----------------------------------

"Let me ask the following question one more time (I've made this inquiry in the past as well, without receiving any satisfactory answer from any anti-SBT conspiracy theorist):

If the animation project authored by Dale K. Myers is dead wrong in its depiction of the Single-Bullet Theory as being a one-bullet scenario that is not only POSSIBLE, but very, very likely a rock-solid FACT in all respects, then I want to know HOW in this wide world of ours it would have been even remotely possible for Dale Myers to have stuck THAT CLOSE TO THE REAL EVIDENCE in the case and to have produced a BOGUS animation (as CTers believe he has done) that comes so incredibly close to what a true and NON-BOGUS animation would have looked like?

To clarify what I mean by that --- The depiction of the victims (JFK and Connally) in Myers' animation (along with the general configuration of the limo and of Dealey Plaza and of the TSBD and of Elm Street, etc.) are certainly NOT so far "out of whack" that any CTer can look at it and say this:

"Myers is full of dooky here! He doesn't have this model even CLOSE to being accurate in any way!"

So, even if the anti-SBT crowd wants to nitpick about the size of John Connally's head in Dale's 3D model, or about the height of the limo's crossbar seen in the animation.....those same CTers haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to the big-ticket question that no conspiracist has EVER been able to reconcile--and that question is:

If the SBT is only a wet dream of "Warren Commission shills" (et al), then how in the world did multiple gunmen firing multiple bullets (usually at least THREE missiles, per CTer accounts) into the bodies of two victims manage to MIMIC A PERFECT (or damn near perfect-looking) SINGLE-BULLET EVENT with those multiple bullets?

I'm still waiting for a single SBT-hating conspiracy theorist to logically and believably answer the above question.

In short, the Single-Bullet Theory makes a whole bunch of (common) sense. Especially when placed up against ANY alternate scenario that might be used to try and knock it down."

-- DVP; April 18, 2008

----------------------------------

"And isn't it amazing that there just happened to be another bullet hole on the opposite side of JFK's body to meet the "SBT" needs of Mr. Specter, et al?

Has any conspiracy theorist in history ever made this basic observation?....

Boy, those assassins were sure a bunch of lucky sons of bitches when the guy who shot JFK in the throat from the front managed to hit Kennedy in exactly the right spot on his body so that (later on) the official investigators could utilize that entry wound in the throat as the point of exit for the SBT bullet. And then the multiple assassins got even luckier when the upper-back bullet and the bullet that entered the throat both decided not to exit the body and then both of those bullets vanished into puffs of smoke before either of those bullets (which obviously were still inside JFK's body when he was inside Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland Hospital) could be seen by any non-conspirator.

Can anyone truly believe that such incredible good fortune could possibly have existed amongst the (alleged) multiple shooters who were (allegedly) firing bullets at President Kennedy on 11/22/63?

(And yet CTers have the gall to tell me that I am the one who believes in "Magic Bullets". Oy vey!)"

-- DVP; July 1, 2018

----------------------------------

"[Many conspiracy theorists] require absolute perfect to-the-millimeter perfection in a Single-Bullet Theory re-creation before [they'll] even begin to consider it valid. But, realistically, it's just not reasonable to expect an event like this to be able to be re-created right down to the last inch.

In my opinion, however, CE903 comes very close to SBT perfection (even though I realize that the 17.72-degree angle isn't exactly right, since it's an angle for the equivalent of Z217.5 and not what I believe is the true SBT Z-Film frame of Z224).

So, if you want to say I "want it both ways", okay. But the Z217.5 angle seen in CE903 is so incredibly close to being "perfect", why would I quibble with it and raise hell with Mr. Specter & Company (especially since I fully realize that complete and total "perfection" is not a reasonable expectation)?"

-- DVP; July 3, 2018

----------------------------------

"Another line of reasoning that could be utilized by LNers is this one:

After Bullet CE399 exited JFK's throat, it DID NOT tumble into John Connally's back at all, and the reason for the elongated (15 mm.) size of Connally's back wound was due merely to a tangential strike, which is exactly the same explanation given by the Warren Commission on page 86 of its Final Report to explain the 15-millimeter size of the entrance wound in Kennedy's head.

Hence, there was also a very small wound of exit in Kennedy's throat--which, given the "tangential strike" explanation for Connally's back wound, would "solve" another supposed problem that conspiracists often bring up -- i.e., Why did the bullet suddenly start to tumble into Connally's back even though it left a nice round wound in Kennedy's throat, which is more indicative of a NON-tumbling bullet that it is a tumbling missile?

The above scenario is, however, in conflict with the majority of Dr. Lattimer's tests, which are tests that resulted in 5 out of 6 bullets that tumbled into the Connally target after having gone through a simulated Kennedy neck.

But, anyway, it's some food for "Tumbling vs. Tangential" thought, I think."

-- DVP; October 22, 2012
 

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

There are many different reasons why the Single-Bullet Theory should be accepted as being true (all discussed here).

The "tumbling bullet" isn't the be-all/end-all deciding factor for the SBT's validity. Because even if the bullet—Commission Exhibit No. 399—wasn't tumbling at all as it entered the upper back of Governor Connally in Dealey Plaza, the SBT is still most certainly the most reasonable solution.

In fact, with or without any "tumbling", the SBT is the only truly reasonable and sensible solution that explains the initial wounding of JFK and all of Connally's wounds.

Here are a few SBT-related points I've made in the past that deserve a replay every now and then:

----------------------------------

"Let me ask the following question one more time (I've made this inquiry in the past as well, without receiving any satisfactory answer from any anti-SBT conspiracy theorist):

If the animation project authored by Dale K. Myers is dead wrong in its depiction of the Single-Bullet Theory as being a one-bullet scenario that is not only POSSIBLE, but very, very likely a rock-solid FACT in all respects, then I want to know HOW in this wide world of ours it would have been even remotely possible for Dale Myers to have stuck THAT CLOSE TO THE REAL EVIDENCE in the case and to have produced a BOGUS animation (as CTers believe he has done) that comes so incredibly close to what a true and NON-BOGUS animation would have looked like?

To clarify what I mean by that --- The depiction of the victims (JFK and Connally) in Myers' animation (along with the general configuration of the limo and of Dealey Plaza and of the TSBD and of Elm Street, etc.) are certainly NOT so far "out of whack" that any CTer can look at it and say this:

"Myers is full of dooky here! He doesn't have this model even CLOSE to being accurate in any way!"

So, even if the anti-SBT crowd wants to nitpick about the size of John Connally's head in Dale's 3D model, or about the height of the limo's crossbar seen in the animation.....those same CTers haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to the big-ticket question that no conspiracist has EVER been able to reconcile--and that question is:

If the SBT is only a wet dream of "Warren Commission shills" (et al), then how in the world did multiple gunmen firing multiple bullets (usually at least THREE missiles, per CTer accounts) into the bodies of two victims manage to MIMIC A PERFECT (or damn near perfect-looking) SINGLE-BULLET EVENT with those multiple bullets?

I'm still waiting for a single SBT-hating conspiracy theorist to logically and believably answer the above question.

In short, the Single-Bullet Theory makes a whole bunch of (common) sense. Especially when placed up against ANY alternate scenario that might be used to try and knock it down."

-- DVP; April 18, 2008

----------------------------------

"And isn't it amazing that there just happened to be another bullet hole on the opposite side of JFK's body to meet the "SBT" needs of Mr. Specter, et al?

Has any conspiracy theorist in history ever made this basic observation?....

Boy, those assassins were sure a bunch of lucky sons of bitches when the guy who shot JFK in the throat from the front managed to hit Kennedy in exactly the right spot on his body so that (later on) the official investigators could utilize that entry wound in the throat as the point of exit for the SBT bullet. And then the multiple assassins got even luckier when the upper-back bullet and the bullet that entered the throat both decided not to exit the body and then both of those bullets vanished into puffs of smoke before either of those bullets (which obviously were still inside JFK's body when he was inside Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland Hospital) could be seen by any non-conspirator.

Can anyone truly believe that such incredible good fortune could possibly have existed amongst the (alleged) multiple shooters who were (allegedly) firing bullets at President Kennedy on 11/22/63?

(And yet CTers have the gall to tell me that I am the one who believes in "Magic Bullets". Oy vey!)"

-- DVP; July 1, 2018

----------------------------------

"[Many conspiracy theorists] require absolute perfect to-the-millimeter perfection in a Single-Bullet Theory re-creation before [they'll] even begin to consider it valid. But, realistically, it's just not reasonable to expect an event like this to be able to be re-created right down to the last inch.

In my opinion, however, CE903 comes very close to SBT perfection (even though I realize that the 17.72-degree angle isn't exactly right, since it's an angle for the equivalent of Z217.5 and not what I believe is the true SBT Z-Film frame of Z224).

So, if you want to say I "want it both ways", okay. But the Z217.5 angle seen in CE903 is so incredibly close to being "perfect", why would I quibble with it and raise hell with Mr. Specter & Company (especially since I fully realize that complete and total "perfection" is not a reasonable expectation)?"

-- DVP; July 3, 2018

----------------------------------

"Another line of reasoning that could be utilized by LNers is this one:

After Bullet CE399 exited JFK's throat, it DID NOT tumble into John Connally's back at all, and the reason for the elongated (15 mm.) size of Connally's back wound was due merely to a tangential strike, which is exactly the same explanation given by the Warren Commission on page 86 of its Final Report to explain the 15-millimeter size of the entrance wound in Kennedy's head.

Hence, there was also a very small wound of exit in Kennedy's throat--which, given the "tangential strike" explanation for Connally's back wound, would "solve" another supposed problem that conspiracists often bring up -- i.e., Why did the bullet suddenly start to tumble into Connally's back even though it left a nice round wound in Kennedy's throat, which is more indicative of a NON-tumbling bullet that it is a tumbling missile?

The above scenario is, however, in conflict with the majority of Dr. Lattimer's tests, which are tests that resulted in 5 out of 6 bullets that tumbled into the Connally target after having gone through a simulated Kennedy neck.

But, anyway, it's some food for "Tumbling vs. Tangential" thought, I think."

-- DVP; October 22, 2012
 

There is some debate as to the angle the bullet travelled through JFK's neck, whether that angle was downwards or even slightly upwards as the HSCA suggested. Some time back you posted a link to a page on your website where you discuss why you think the HSCA might have been wrong to think the bullet was moving slightly upwards as it passed through JFK's neck. Can you post that link here again?

[David Von Pein]

24 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

There is some debate as to the angle the bullet travelled through JFK's neck, whether that angle was downwards or even slightly upwards as the HSCA suggested. Some time back you posted a link to a page on your website where you discuss why you think the HSCA might have been wrong to think the bullet was moving slightly upwards as it passed through JFK's neck. Can you post that link here again?

http://DVP's JFK Archives / The Location Of JFK's Back Wound

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Mervyn Hagger]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/jfk-back-wound-location.html

 

Why is this fairy story about the magic bullet now being rehashed on this thread as well?

Occam doesn't get a look-in because your version of events is so complicated.

David, your incessant need to keep pushing a mantra which says "nothing to see here, move along, now!" makes me wonder how on earth you dug yourself into such a pit from which you now feel that you can never climb out of, without self-destruction of your own vanity?

What is "in it" for you?

Tell us how and why you came to build your vast library in support of the official government view of life as it concerns the Kennedy brothers?

No one is disputing your collection.

It is a good collection.

It is your own use of it that makes me wonder why you assembled it.

Your middle name isn't Warren, or so it seems.

Are you related in some way?

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Why is this fairy story about the magic bullet now being rehashed on this thread as well?

Because it's so much fun seeing the CTers here at this forum go into their Denial Mode whenever the subject of the SBT comes up.

How the CTers of this planet manage to sidestep the logic of the SBT is beyond my capacity to understand. But nearly 100% of them have been doing it now for pert-near sixty years. Very strange indeed.

 

2 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Tell us how and why you came to build your vast library in support of the official government view of life as it concerns the Kennedy brothers?

Funny you should ask about that. It's an interesting story indeed.....

As a young lad collecting Topps Baseball Cards in eastern Indiana in the year 1972, I was approached one day by a man who introduced himself as a Mr. Arlen Specter. I didn't know at that time who he was, but he asked me to sit down with him in front of the Kresge's store in Richmond's Gateway Shopping Center and he then proceeded to tell me a fascinating story. It was all about this "theory" he had concerning some kind of a "Bullet" that supposedly went through two different gunshot victims during an attempted murder somewhere in the state of....uh....Texas, I think it was.

Mr. Specter then told me to "spread the word" far and wide about this "SBT" nonsense. He said that something he called "The Internet" was going to be in everybody's home in about 20 or 25 more years, and when I grew up, he wanted me (of all people) to start up all kinds of "blogs" (whatever the hell those are) (????). And he wanted these "blog" things to all focus attention on JFK and this "SBT" thing he kept yammering about.

I didn't know what to think. Frankly, this Specter guy sounded like a nut. But he brainwashed me thoroughly (of course), so what could I do? I had no choice but to do as he said. And so, 35 years later, in August of 2007, I started my career as an Official JFK Assassination Disinformation Agent.*

* I had also spent the previous four years [2003-2007] as an ADA (Apprentice Disinfo Agent), mainly at Debra Conway's JFK Lancer forum.

It's not a very fun job (~sigh~), but I can't complain about the salary. (Plus the regular checks from the Arlen Specter Disinfo Estate keep coming in every month too. So that's another perk.)

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Mike Aitken]

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Indeed, Jonathan. Plus there's the continual embarrassment that about 90% (perhaps even more) of the conspiracy theorists here at the EF should be experiencing on a daily basis when they continue to embrace such absurd and wholly unprovable theories like these for years on end:

1. The second-floor Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never even happened at all.

2. Lee Oswald didn't carry any large-ish paper bag at all into the Book Depository on 11/22/63.

3. Lee Oswald never ordered any rifle at all from Klein's Sporting Goods and never once even touched Carcano Rifle No. C2766.

4. Lee Oswald never even went to the Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City at all in September of 1963.

5. Ruth Paine was up to her neck in conspiracy and patsy-planting in the weeks prior to Nov. 22nd.

6. Captain Fritz and other DPD officers were part of a pre-arranged plot on 11/24/63 which allowed Jack Ruby to have easy access to the City Hall basement in order to kill Lee Oswald.

....And so many more embarrassing theories that have been featured over and over again on this forum's pages.

 

I disagree.  As a relative newcomer to the investigation, I find it informative to read both sides of the argument.  

This forum, unlike others, offers newcomers a place where they can read/see professional opinions from both sides.  I appreciate both of you, but I also appreciate those on the other side, because it allows me to gather the most information and draw my own conclusions.  
 

If all of us throw our hands up and conclude that “this is what happened” without seeing the investigation through to the end, we’ll never force/encourage the powers that be, as well as the remaining living witnesses to divulge the evidence that hasn’t seen the light of day.  I see the investigation as a team effort and we will all be winners if we manage to untangle this whole thing.

[David Von Pein]

8 minutes ago, Mike Aitken said:

 I see the investigation as a team effort and we will all be winners if we manage to untangle this whole thing.

IMO, though, the JFK case has already been "untangled". It was untangled (for the most part) way back in 1964 when the Warren Commission first investigated the case. (I.E., the evidence clearly points to Oswald as the lone assassin.)

Naturally, all of the conspiracy theorists think I'm totally nuts for uttering such a statement about the WC and Oswald. But that's how I feel about it nonetheless, and there's been nothing coming from the "Conspiracy" camp that has even remotely nudged me into changing my opinion about that.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

http://DVP's JFK Archives / The Location Of JFK's Back Wound

 

Thanks, some good info there.

[Mike Aitken]

3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

IMO, though, the JFK case has already been "untangled". It was untangled (for the most part) way back in 1964 when the Warren Commission first investigated the case. (I.E., the evidence clearly points to Oswald as the lone assassin.)

Naturally, all of the conspiracy theorists think I'm totally nuts for uttering such a statement about the WC. But that's how I feel about it nonetheless, and there's been nothing coming from the "Conspiracy" camp that has even remotely nudged me into changing my opinion about that.

 

Brother, I respect your opinion and I will continue to read your posts and utilize your resources but, at least to me, there are too many unanswered questions 👍

[Mervyn Hagger]

25 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Because it's so much fun seeing the CTers here at this forum go into their Denial Mode whenever the subject of the SBT comes up.

How the CTers of this planet manage to sidestep the logic of the SBT is beyond my capacity to understand. But nearly 100% of them have been doing it now for pert-near sixty years. Very strange indeed.

 

Funny you should ask about that. It's an interesting story indeed.....

As a young lad collecting Topps Baseball Cards in eastern Indiana in the year 1972, I was approached one day by a man who introduced himself as a Mr. Arlen Specter. I didn't know at that time who he was, but he asked me to sit down with him in front of the Kresge's discount store in downtown Richmond and he then proceeded to tell me a fascinating story. It was all about this "theory" he had concerning some kind of a "Bullet" that supposedly went through two different gunshot victims during an attempted murder somewhere in the state of....uh....Texas, I think it was.

Mr. Specter then told me to "spread the word" far and wide about this "SBT" nonsense. He said that something he called "The Internet" was going to be in everybody's home in about 20 or 25 more years, and when I grew up, he wanted me (of all people) to start up all kinds of "blogs" (whatever the hell those are) (????). And he wanted these "blog" things to all focus attention on JFK and this "SBT" thing he kept yammering about.

I didn't know what to think. Frankly, this Specter guy sounded like a nut. But he brainwashed me thoroughly (of course), so what could I do? I had no choice but to do as he said. And so, 35 years later, in August of 2007, I started my career as an Official JFK Assassination Disinformation Agent.

It's not a very fun job (~sigh~), but I can't complain about the salary. (Plus the regular checks from the Arlen Specter Disinfo Estate keep coming in every month too. So that's another perk.)

 

Well, at least you have a sense of humor, but then I have seen pictures of Hitler laughing ....

[Charles Blackmon]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Because it's so much fun seeing the CTers here at this forum go into their Denial Mode whenever the subject of the SBT comes up.

 

 

Funny story, sure and Lord knows we need more humor. It does confirm though that you like to tell stories.