Education Forum in need of P.R.?

[Tom Gram]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The above scenario is, however, in conflict with the majority of Dr. Lattimer's tests, which are tests that resulted in 5 out of 6 bullets that tumbled into the Connally target after having gone through a simulated Kennedy neck.

Martin Fackler fired MC test shots into ballistics gel, and found that the 6.5mm bullets were among the most stable ever tested, tumbling only after a ridiculous 60cm of penetration. 

http://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf (p.40) 

If Facklers tests are representative of real-world passage through tissue followed by air, which is debatable, the 6.5mm MC bullet was probably the least likely bullet on the planet to tumble after passage through JFK. Fackler even claims, indirectly, that the bullet didn’t tumble in his summary of the wound profile. 

However, Lattimer’s tests seem like a far more accurate simulation of Dealey Plaza - hell they actually were a simulation of Dealey Plaza - and five out of six test shots not only tumbled but did an almost complete 90 degree turn before hitting the second target. 

Like Ben said, the Connally clothing thoroughly debunks the tumbling bullet theory -  it proves conclusively that the bullet did not hit Connally sideways. Granted it was only six shots, so it’s not exactly conclusive, but Lattimer’s tests seem like a legitimate blow to the probability of the SBT if 5 out of 6 MC bullets really turn sideways in the air after passing through an intermediate target. 

[Gerry Down]

14 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Martin Fackler fired MC test shots into ballistics gel, and found that the 6.5mm bullets were among the most stable ever tested, tumbling only after a ridiculous 60cm of penetration. 

http://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf (p.40) 

If Facklers tests are representative of real-world passage through tissue followed by air, which is debatable, the 6.5mm MC bullet was probably the least likely bullet on the planet to tumble after passage through JFK. Fackler even claims, indirectly, that the bullet didn’t tumble in his summary of the wound profile. 

However, Lattimer’s tests seem like a far more accurate simulation of Dealey Plaza - hell they actually were a simulation of Dealey Plaza - and five out of six test shots not only tumbled but did an almost complete 90 degree turn before hitting the second target. 

Like Ben said, the Connally clothing thoroughly debunks the tumbling bullet theory -  it proves conclusively that the bullet did not hit Connally sideways. Granted it was only six shots, so it’s not exactly conclusive, but Lattimer’s tests seem like a legitimate blow to the probability of the SBT if 5 out of 6 MC bullets really turn sideways in the air after passing through an intermediate target. 

I wonder if its possible the tumbling bullet could have rotated near 180 degrees by the time it struck Connally and so the rear of the bullet entered first into Connally. 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Indeed, Jonathan.  Plus there's the continual embarrassment that about 90% (perhaps even more) of the conspiracy theorists here at the EF should be experiencing on a daily basis when they continue to embrace such absurd and wholly unprovable theories like these for years on end:

 

No, what's embarrassing are all the ridiculous knots the Warren Commission (and now its apologists) had to tie itself into to make its coverup appear to work.... at least on the surface. Just below the surface it all falls apart.

 

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

1. The second-floor Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never even happened at all.

 

The evidence against this happening is overwhelming. It is contradicted by first-day statements, the Darnell film, lies of Shelley and Lovelady that are exposed by the film, and more. It has been debunked by multiple researchers including myself, but primarily by Bart Kamp.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this debunking is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

2. Lee Oswald didn't carry any large-ish paper bag at all into the Book Depository on 11/22/63.

 

I haven't studied this much. But Buell Wesley Frazier, the one person who got the best view of the supposed bag, has described the length of it. And that length is too short to fit a broken down rifle.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this debunking is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

3. Lee Oswald never ordered any rifle at all from Klein's Sporting Goods and never once even touched Carcano Rifle No. C2766.

 

I personally proved that postal money orders (PMOs) throughout the 20th centrally required endorsement bank stamps in order to be cashed. The PMO supposedly used by Oswald to purchase the rifle has no such stamps.

There are a number of other issues with the rifle. For example, that the order was filled the day after the order was sent to Klein's by mail. Wow! Add it all up and it's beyond belief.

 

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

4. Lee Oswald never even went to the Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City at all in September of 1963.

 

Oh.... my.... gosh. I can't believe that even LNers like DVP believe that Oswald went to the Cuban consulate. Everybody, including J. Edgar Hoover, knows that it was a blond Oswald imposter who visited the consulate. There is absolutely no evidence or reason to believe it was Oswald.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this debunking is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

5. Ruth Paine was up to her neck in conspiracy and patsy-planting in the weeks prior to Nov. 22nd.

 

There are a variety of reasons to suspect Ruth Paine of being a CIA asset. For one, the CIA had orchestrated the Mexico City charade in order to set Oswald up as a patsy for the assassination. And then, voila!, Paine gets a job for Oswald in a place where the assassination can and does take place.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

6. Captain Fritz and other DPD officers were part of a pre-arranged plot on 11/24/63 which allowed Jack Ruby to have easy access to the City Hall basement in order to kill Lee Oswald.

 

I haven't studied this at all.

 

[Michael Crane]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

No, what's embarrassing are all the ridiculous knots the Warren Commission (and now its apologists) had to tie itself into to make its coverup appear to work.... at least on the surface. Just below the surface it all falls apart.

 

 

The evidence against this happening is overwhelming. It is contradicted by first-day statements, the Darnell film, lies of Shelley and Lovelady that are exposed by the film, and more. It has been debunked by multiple researchers including myself, but primarily by Bart Kamp.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this debunking is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

 

I haven't studied this much. But Buell Wesley Frazier, the one person who got the best view of the supposed bag, has described the length of it. And that length is too short to fit a broken down rifle.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this debunking is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

 

I personally proved that postal money orders (PMOs) throughout the 20th centrally required endorsement bank stamps in order to be cashed. The PMO supposedly used by Oswald to purchase the rifle has no such stamps.

There are a number of other issues with the rifle. For example, that the order was filled the day after the order was sent to Klein's by mail. Wow! Add it all up and it's beyond belief.

 

 

Oh.... my.... gosh. I can't believe that even LNers like DVP believe that Oswald went to the Cuban consulate. Everybody, including J. Edgar Hoover, knows that it was a blond Oswald imposter who visited the consulate. There is absolutely no evidence or reason to believe it was Oswald.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this debunking is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

 

There are a variety of reasons to suspect Ruth Paine of being a CIA asset. For one, the CIA had orchestrated the Mexico City charade in order to set Oswald up as a patsy for the assassination. And then, voila!, Paine gets a job for Oswald in a place where the assassination can and does take place.

BTW our resident judge and jury, Jonathan Cohen, presumably thinks this is plausible given that his hero, Jeremy Bojczuk, does. (Source)

 

 

I haven't studied this at all.

 

 

 

[Michael Crane]

Bumped for Jonathan Cohen getting owned!

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:01 AM, Charles Blackmon said:

At this writing there are 34 people worldwide including guests viewing this forum. Meanwhile at the JFKA Discussion website there are over 3000 viewers. Why would more of the masses be interested in reading constant nonsense from the likes of disinformation agent "Richard Smith" and "Brian Doyle" than from real JFK researchers like Pat Speer, Larry Hancock, David Josephs and Jim DiEugenio? Seems like some much needed P.R. is needed.

Perhaps it would help if the moderators would stop allowing threads that peddle fringe, extremist claims, such as threads/posts that defend the anti-Semitic crackpot and fraud Fletcher Prouty, and threads/posts that argue that 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by the Bush people, that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolitions, that a missile--and not an airliner--hit the Pentagon on 9/11, that John Lennon was assassinated by the military-industrial complex, that the "Secret Team" assassinated Princess Diana, that Vietnam was a "pretty nice country" after the Communists took over (yes, someone actually said that, and they scoffed when confronted with numerous Human Rights Watch reports on the terrible conditions and brutal repression in Vietnam), that Churchill poisoned FDR, that the Israelis deliberately attacked the USS Liberty, that Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdul Nasser was a peace-loving moderate, that Israel is a repressive police state (but Vietnam is a "pretty nice country"), that JFK was killed because he was going to expose the existence of UFOs, and that Liberty Lobby was not really anti-Semitic (a truly mind-boggling claim), etc., etc.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Matthew Koch]

49 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Perhaps it would help if the moderators would stop allowing threads that peddle fringe, extremist claims, such as threads/posts that defend the anti-Semitic crackpot and fraud Fletcher Prouty, and threads/posts that argue that 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by the Bush people, that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolitions, that a missile--and not an airliner--hit the Pentagon on 9/11, that John Lennon was assassinated by the military-industrial complex, that the "Secret Team" assassinated Princess Diana, that Vietnam was a "pretty nice country" after the Communists took over (yes, someone actually said that, and they scoffed when confronted with numerous Human Rights Watch reports on the terrible conditions and brutal repression in Vietnam), that Churchill poisoned FDR, that the Israelis deliberately attacked the USS Liberty, that Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdul Nasser was a peace-loving moderate, that Israel is a repressive police state (but Vietnam is a "pretty nice country"), that JFK was killed because he was going to expose the existence of UFOs, and that Liberty Lobby was not really anti-Semitic (a truly mind-boggling claim), etc., etc.

Why do you keep repeating the same things over and over again expecting a different result? 

Now you are asking for Censorship from the MODS???? 
 

 

[Michael Griffith]

Just now, Matthew Koch said:

 

Why do you keep repeating the same things over and over again expecting a different result? 

Well, certain people herein keep peddling the spurious claims that I listed "over and over again," so, yeah, every now and then I repeat my objections to this embarrassing stuff.

Now you are asking for Censorship from the MODS???? 

You're doggone right I am. Yes, absolutely. I am asking that the dubious claims that I mentioned not be allowed to be posted in this particular forum. If people want to post this stuff in other forums, I don't care. But posting it in a forum that's supposed to be about the JFK case makes the case for conspiracy look bad.

[Matthew Koch]

4 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Why do you keep repeating the same things over and over again expecting a different result? 

Well, certain people herein keep peddling the spurious claims that I listed "over and over again," so, yeah, every now and then I repeat my objections to this embarrassing stuff.

Now you are asking for Censorship from the MODS???? 

You're doggone right I am. Yes, absolutely. I am asking that the dubious claims that I mentioned not be allowed to be posted in this particular forum. If people want to post this stuff in other forums, I don't care. But posting it in a forum that's supposed to be about the JFK case makes the case for conspiracy look bad.

You should read the Mod reply to your Fletcher Prouty nonsense on the Old Wine New Bottles Thread. 

Well your Vietnam Revision should go in that Bin also because it's really just people here on the forum correcting your Nonsense that the US would have won Vietnam if they just fought harder... and that there is nothing to JFK getting out of Vietnam (Which I think is the real reason you hate Fletcher is because he debunks your thesis) 

Hopefully the mods start censoring your posts on this since it has been established that Fletcher doesn't meet the criteria of being "anti Semitic" and thus, sorry you can't cancel him with your Woke Jihad. Last week in church the topic was if you were arrested for being Catholic would there be enough evidence to convict you.. There is not enough evidence to convict this man of the crime that you are accusing him off. You are acting like the people in crowd in the Passion of the Christ calling for crucifixion eventhough the man has been judged to be not guilty. 

You need to learn to write IMO after things like But posting it in a forum that's supposed to be about the JFK case makes the case for conspiracy look bad. Because as the thread shows people aren't reading this site much and it has to with lack of original research and polemists like yourself and the Water Cooler Crew that make everything into partisan politics.. Maybe instead of polemics you learn to forum a better argument instead of saying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result... Just a suggestion, I know you won't take ; ) 

[Charles Blackmon]

I am not aware of people posting on this JFKA forum theories about a 9/11 conspiracy. Maybe somebody mentioned it somewhere but it doesn't seem to be out of hand. When somebody gets out of hand the best solution is to mute them. Then you can choose which of their posts you are willing to unmute and read. Its simple and I thank the mods for allowing that option.

[Charles Blackmon]

On 8/28/2023 at 5:01 AM, David Von Pein said:

Because it's so much fun seeing the CTers here at this forum go into their Denial Mode whenever the subject of the SBT comes up.

How the CTers of this planet manage to sidestep the logic of the SBT is beyond my capacity to understand. But nearly 100% of them have been doing it now for pert-near sixty years. Very strange indeed.

 

Funny you should ask about that. It's an interesting story indeed.....

As a young lad collecting Topps Baseball Cards in eastern Indiana in the year 1972, I was approached one day by a man who introduced himself as a Mr. Arlen Specter. I didn't know at that time who he was, but he asked me to sit down with him in front of the Kresge's store in Richmond's Gateway Shopping Center and he then proceeded to tell me a fascinating story. It was all about this "theory" he had concerning some kind of a "Bullet" that supposedly went through two different gunshot victims during an attempted murder somewhere in the state of....uh....Texas, I think it was.

Mr. Specter then told me to "spread the word" far and wide about this "SBT" nonsense. He said that something he called "The Internet" was going to be in everybody's home in about 20 or 25 more years, and when I grew up, he wanted me (of all people) to start up all kinds of "blogs" (whatever the hell those are) (????). And he wanted these "blog" things to all focus attention on JFK and this "SBT" thing he kept yammering about.

I didn't know what to think. Frankly, this Specter guy sounded like a nut. But he brainwashed me thoroughly (of course), so what could I do? I had no choice but to do as he said. And so, 35 years later, in August of 2007, I started my career as an Official JFK Assassination Disinformation Agent.*

* I had also spent the previous four years [2003-2007] as an ADA (Apprentice Disinfo Agent), mainly at Debra Conway's JFK Lancer forum.

It's not a very fun job (~sigh~), but I can't complain about the salary. (Plus the regular checks from the Arlen Specter Disinfo Estate keep coming in every month too. So that's another perk.)

 

SBT just took another knife in the back this weekend. Now on life support.