Oswald as designated patsy; from Bart Kamp's new book

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

What wise counsel was that, Cliff? 

Scratch the Commie Conspiracy angle.

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

By whom?

McGeorge Bundy in the Situation Room; Averell Harriman within minutes of LBJ’s arrival at the White House.  Harriman let Johnson know Foggy Bottom backed the LN.

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

Before the first shot, Johnson knew what he had to do.

Yeah, sit tight at Parkland and wait to see if the sheep-dipped pasty gets whacked —according to plan.

Someone Would Have Talked, Larry Hancock, pg 401-2:

<quote on>

May 1:15 PM on November 22, when the President was known to be dead, Malcolm Kilduff approached Johnson about making a statement.  Johnson’s response was, “No.  Wait.  We don’t know whether it’s a Communist conspiracy or not.  Are they prepared to get me out of here?”  Johnson’s first concern after the shooting appears to be conspiracy.  While still at Parkland both S.A. Youngblood and S. A. Roberts approached Johnson with similar concerns and strongly advised him to get out of Dallas and get airborne as quickly as possible...

Despite his own remark and those of the Secret Service, Johnson appeared reluctant to leave Parkland. </q>

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

Sure he took advice around the edges about how best to do it.

You should read Salandria.

Vincent Salandria: "Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter on January 4, 2012"

<quote on, emphasis added> 

I explained [to Specter] that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot. 
Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot. We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth. In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.  </q>

Harriman and Bundy were the top Eastern Establishment WASPs in the Kennedy Administration.

 

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger and Ben:

The obvious question then is why did LBJ not announce a commission idea on the 24th?

I mean that would have been the obvious reaction to Ruby killing Oswald on live TV would it not?

Eugene Rostow sure thought so. So did Alsop.  So did Kay Graham, Wiggins, and Friendly and Reston. Rostow's reaction was something like:Dallas is resembling a wild west show.  First JFK, then TIppit and now Oswald.  How can anyone buy this police force and DA that allows the prime suspect to get shot on national TV.

But yet Johnson is not thinking that.  And technically he is correct, murder is a state crime.  And there is no law at that time to make the murder of a president a federal one.  Rostow is first about a blue ribbon commission and he even suggests people in both number and specifics like 7 or 9, and people like Tom Dewey or Bill Story.

Why?

"Because world opinion and American opinion is just now so shaken by the behavior of the Dallas Police that they're not believing anything."

Rostow had talked to Katzenbach more than once, but thought he was not getting through since the man seemed groggy to him. Rostow said he talked about this commission idea with someone else who he does not name. But he tells Moyers he is telling him since he wants LBJ to know that this is the best idea since what is happening in Dallas is too far out.  Moyers repeats the idea and Rostow says yes that is what he means..  And there is evidence that Katzenbach did already get the idea from Rostow; its a memo from Jenkins to LBJ in which Jenkins mentions Katzenbach floating the idea of a commission.

On the 25th LBJ is talking to Hoover and he says he thinks the commission is a very bad idea. Because that would probably necessitate White House appointments.  He wants a Texas Court of Inquiry--which did get off the ground--supplemented by an FBI report to the DOJ.  But even at this point, he has heard about Friendly, Graham, and Wiggins wanting a Commission.

Alsop then calls on the 25th, and LBJ is still supporting a Texas court of inquiry at the start. But its Alsop who is the one who loosens his moorings on this.

Let me add two points that are not explicit yet.

First, the idea that somehow LBJ was a wizard in all things political is a myth set up by people like Caro and Nelson in order to sell books.  LBJ screwed up his own chance to be president in 1960 in a complete miscalculation that overestimated his torque and underestimated what JFK was doing that year.  Second, LBJ sowed the seeds of his own destruction at the hands of Bill Fulbright with that idiotic invasion of the Dominican Republic. So please do not throw this mythology at me right out of A Texan Looks at Lyndon, a book which was written for the John Birch Society.

Second, Alsop starts the dialogue off after LBJ suggests a Texas Court of Inquiry by asking: will there be someone outside of Texas? What all these people understood was that this had to be taken out of Dallas first, and preferably out of Texas completely.  Because with the murder of Oswald by Ruby, it was clearly suggested the Dallas police might have been involved. And if that was the case, how could one trust someone like Wade or Fritz to get to the bottom of that?

 

JD:  The obvious question then is why did LBJ not announce a commission idea on the 24th?

 

I mean that would have been the obvious reaction to Ruby killing Oswald on live TV would it not?

 

RO:  Naming the commission 6 days after the murder is not soon enough? 

 

He didn't want to announce the commission "idea" without having the people he wanted in place, for obvious reasons.  But he had trouble getting his choices to agree. Warren turned him down multiple times and agreed only after LBJ raised the specter of war with the SU.  Sen. Russell was still refusing, when Johnson simply announced his name on 29th. It took a while to assemble the group of big names he wanted who would front the commission but be sure to not investigate anything.  Regardless of what the VIPs you cite thought about the timing.

 

JD:  Let me add two points that are not explicit yet.

 

First, the idea that somehow LBJ was a wizard in all things political is a myth set up by people like Caro and Nelson in order to sell books.  LBJ screwed up his own chance to be president in 1960 in a complete miscalculation that overestimated his torque and underestimated what JFK was doing that year.  Second, LBJ sowed the seeds of his own destruction at the hands of Bill Fulbright with that idiotic invasion of the Dominican Republic. So please do not throw this mythology at me right out of A Texan Looks at Lyndon, a book which was written for the John Birch Society.

 

RO:  I don't think so.  LBJ was a regional candidate in '60 who, it turned out, had little chance to get the nomination.  My guess is the realization of that served to stoke his lust to get the presidency by means other than at the ballot box.

 

I know about A Texan Looks at Lyndon.  I never read it and am not happy with you implying that it was, or even could be, a source of mine. 

 

JD:  Second, Alsop starts the dialogue off after LBJ suggests a Texas Court of Inquiry by asking: will there be someone outside of Texas.  What all these people understood was that this had to be taken out of Dallas first, and preferably out of Texas completely.  Because with the murder of Oswald by Ruby, it was clearly suggested the Dallas police might have been involved. And if that was the case, how could one trust someone like Wade or Fritz to get to the bottom of that?

 

RO:  You're saying all of these people understood that the investigation had to be taken out of Texas, but LBJ didn't, and had to be told by them?  You kidding?

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

How would that preclude LBJ taking the wise counsel of a high level co-conspirator?

 

By "co-conspirator"  you are referring to Harriman, right?

I can see why LBJ wouldn't mind JFK being killed. But why would Harriman be okay with that?

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

By "co-conspirator"  you are referring to Harriman, right?

I can see why LBJ wouldn't mind JFK being killed. But why would Harriman be okay with that?

 

He wanted to maintain American military presence in SE Asia.  Same reason he had Diem whacked.  We’ve discussed this before.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger and Ben:

The obvious question then is why did LBJ not announce a commission idea on the 24th?

I mean that would have been the obvious reaction to Ruby killing Oswald on live TV would it not?

Eugene Rostow sure thought so. So did Alsop.  So did Kay Graham, Wiggins, and Friendly and Reston. Rostow's reaction was something like:Dallas is resembling a wild west show.  First JFK, then TIppit and now Oswald.  How can anyone buy this police force and DA that allows the prime suspect to get shot on national TV.

But yet Johnson is not thinking that.  And technically he is correct, murder is a state crime.  And there is no law at that time to make the murder of a president a federal one.  Rostow is first about a blue ribbon commission and he even suggests people in both number and specifics like 7 or 9, and people like Tom Dewey or Bill Story.

Why?

"Because world opinion and American opinion is just now so shaken by the behavior of the Dallas Police that they're not believing anything."

Rostow had talked to Katzenbach more than once, but thought he was not getting through since the man seemed groggy to him. Rostow said he talked about this commission idea with someone else who he does not name. But he tells Moyers he is telling him since he wants LBJ to know that this is the best idea since what is happening in Dallas is too far out.  Moyers repeats the idea and Rostow says yes that is what he means..  And there is evidence that Katzenbach did already get the idea from Rostow; its a memo from Jenkins to LBJ in which Jenkins mentions Katzenbach floating the idea of a commission.

On the 25th LBJ is talking to Hoover and he says he thinks the commission is a very bad idea. Because that would probably necessitate White House appointments.  He wants a Texas Court of Inquiry--which did get off the ground--supplemented by an FBI report to the DOJ.  But even at this point, he has heard about Friendly, Graham, and Wiggins wanting a Commission.

Alsop then calls on the 25th, and LBJ is still supporting a Texas court of inquiry at the start. But its Alsop who is the one who loosens his moorings on this.

Let me add two points that are not explicit yet.

First, the idea that somehow LBJ was a wizard in all things political is a myth set up by people like Caro and Nelson in order to sell books.  LBJ screwed up his own chance to be president in 1960 in a complete miscalculation that overestimated his torque and underestimated what JFK was doing that year.  Second, LBJ sowed the seeds of his own destruction at the hands of Bill Fulbright with that idiotic invasion of the Dominican Republic. So please do not throw this mythology at me right out of A Texan Looks at Lyndon, a book which was written for the John Birch Society.

Second, Alsop starts the dialogue off after LBJ suggests a Texas Court of Inquiry by asking: will there be someone outside of Texas? What all these people understood was that this had to be taken out of Dallas first, and preferably out of Texas completely.  Because with the murder of Oswald by Ruby, it was clearly suggested the Dallas police might have been involved. And if that was the case, how could one trust someone like Wade or Fritz to get to the bottom of that?

 

JD--

As someone who attended the LBJ School of Public Affairs (in Austin TX) in the late 1970s, and who attended seminars and classrooms with LBJ Administration people (including Dean Rusk, Joe Califano), I confess to imbibing the "LBJ was a smart political operator" vibe. 

Certainly, everyone who worked with LBJ thought of him as smart, tough, overbearing at times, cunning. Hints of being amoral (not immoral, but amoral). 

Well, at this late date, it is impossible to see inside LBJ's mind, and what factors he pondered regarding the formation of the WC, and the role of Katzenbach. 

I still don't see how the phone call with Joe Alsop, which concluded with Alsop backpedaling, is conclusive. Is is not clear LBJ even talked to Acheson later, who was long out of government service at the time. 

It may be that the fading WASP elites had reasons to form the WC, having to do with international relations, and the appearance the US just did a banana-land snuff job on its President. 

https://www.americanheritage.com/key-warren-report

Max Holland here suggests that is what motivated the Harrimans and Achesons. An image issue. 

Katzenbach said so also during his HSCA testimony. 

This is an interesting paragraph regarding the JFKA, even if from Holland:

That Oswald was not the instrument of a foreign power was an intelligence coup of the first order and of incalculable interest to an unsettled public. Late on Saturday, November 23, the State Department issued a public statement declaring that there was no evidence of a conspiracy involving a foreign country. Yet revealing the intelligence sources and methods that had helped form this determination was out of the question.

So, 24 hours after the JFKA, the State Department declared LHO was not a foreign-state actor.

The State Department believed this on the basis on intel intercepts, says Holland.

Evidently no one considered as such an early hour 1) The intel intercepts were not complete 2) The guilty foreign power was flooding the zone with phony traffic, feigning non-involvement 3) the intel-CIA was dissembling regarding the intercepts.

I do not believe LHO was a foreign-state actor...but 24 hours after the JFKA, who would conclude anything about LHO?

Well, so it goes. 

My guess is the CIA planted the WWII virus, and LBJ seized on it to form the WC, and snuff out a real investigation of the JFKA. The John Newman explanation.

I do not think LBJ was a witting JFKA participant, nor were the Alsops, Achesons and Harrimans. 

The Achesons, Harrimans and Alsops were bit players. 

Just IMHO...

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[James DiEugenio]

Roger:

That reply by you was a bit acrid was it not?

I did not say that you were a disciple of A Texan Looks at Lyndon.  

What I was trying to say is that many people take that book at face value in its picture of an omnipotent--and murdering-- master politician with almost supranatural powers.  Exhibit One: Nelson.

Second, LBJ was a regional figure or candidate in 1960? 

Johnson was a national figure by then.  Because of his Senate Majority leader status, and his role in getting through the two civil rights bills.  He did that in large part to make himself palatable on the national stage.

He made a very bad mistake in underestimating what a well oiled machine Bobby Kennedy would run, which made his strategy--of relying on the back benchers and old guard--look pretty obsolete.  He himself even admitted this.

Third, as I said, and maybe you missed, LBJ was technically correct on the jurisdiction issue.  And on the tapes he talks about how he has been up all night talking to lawyers about the issue.  But the Power Elite had decided that Dallas and the state had no credibility.

I think the fact that he was from Texas had something to do with that myopia.

[Roger Odisio]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger:

That reply by you was a bit acrid was it not?

I did not say that you were a disciple of A Texan Looks at Lyndon.  

What I was trying to say is that many people take that book at face value in its picture of an omnipotent--and murdering-- master politician with almost supranatural powers.  Exhibit One: Nelson.

Second, LBJ was a regional figure or candidate in 1960? 

Johnson was a national figure by then.  Because of his Senate Majority leader status, and his role in getting through the two civil rights bills.  He did that in large part to make himself palatable on the national stage.

He made a very bad mistake in underestimating what a well oiled machine Bobby Kennedy would run, which made his strategy--of relying on the back benchers and old guard--look pretty obsolete.  He himself even admitted this.

Third, as I said, and maybe you missed, LBJ was technically correct on the jurisdiction issue.  And on the tapes he talks about how he has been up all night talking to lawyers about the issue.  But the Power Elite had decided that Dallas and the state had no credibility.

I think the fact that he was from Texas had something to do with that myopia.

JD: That reply by you was a bit acrid was it not?

 

I did not say that you were a disciple of A Texan Looks at Lyndon.  

 

What I was trying to say is that many people take that book at face value in its picture of an omnipotent--and murdering-- master politician with almost supranatural powers.  Exhibit One: Nelson.

 

RO: My answer could be considered a bit acrid.  It was in response to your statement directed to me:  "So please do not throw this mythology at me right out of A Texan Looks at Lyndon, a book which was written for the John Birch Society."

 

JD:  Second, LBJ was a regional figure or candidate in 1960? 

 

Johnson was a national figure by then.  Because of his Senate Majority leader status, and his role in getting through the two civil rights bills.  He did that in large part to make himself palatable on the national stage.

 

He made a very bad mistake in underestimating what a well oiled machine Bobby Kennedy would run, which made his strategy--of relying on the back benchers and old guard--look pretty obsolete.  He himself even admitted this.

 

RO:  The civil rights bills were passed after Johnson became president.

 

He was a national figure as Senate Majority Leader, but he was not a presidential candidate with national support  A few details:  Kennedy 806 delegates, Johnson 409 (761 needed for nomination) on the first ballot at the 1960 convention. All of Johnson's delegates came from Texas, Arkansas, and the South (except 7 from Hawaii and Guam). He didn't enter any primaries, relying on party leaders to pull him through. He announced his candidacy only 6 days before the 1960 convention, claiming his duties as Majority Leader would not permit him to be away from Washington campaigning . 

 

He could see time had passed him by as you indicate and there was little hope for him ever making it to the White House.  Which prompted him to finagle his way on to the ticket with Kennedy.  The rest is history.  

 

JD: Third, as I said, and maybe you missed, LBJ was technically correct on the jurisdiction issue.  And on the tapes he talks about how he has been up all night talking to lawyers about the issue.  But the Power Elite had decided that Dallas and the state had no credibility.

 

RO:  I said the same thing about Texas  jurisdiction.  Maybe you missed it.

 

Johnson quickly shut down investigations in Texas and the US Congress because he wanted to ensure there would be no real investigations, not because of any opinions from the Power Elite. He wanted to control the coverup from Washington.

.

 

[James DiEugenio]

The Texas Board of Inquiry did convene.

I have seen their records at the Dallas Public Library.

It actually went on for a few weeks.  But it was clear that the Commission would now take center stage.

LBJ did not finangle his way on to the ticket.  The best chronicle of this is in Mutual Contempt by Jeff Shesol.

JFK was advised by people like Phil Graham to take Johnson since he could help him in the south.

Bobby Kennedy did not like the choice.  He ran his own private campaign up and down the stairs of the hotel to try and get Johnson to turn down the invite.  Bobby ending up losing that battle.  Most interested observers consider Shesol's the best research on the subject.