Oswald as designated patsy; from Bart Kamp's new book

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Max Holland? Max Holland? (Jackie Gleason voice, from the Honeymooners, on second or third repetition), "Max Holland?" 

Your go-to move.  Making faces because you can’t make a point.

You betray an odd double standard— if it’s CIA files you demand to see it.  But if a notorious Loner Nutter relates damning, conspiracy friendly information it cannot be credible, according to you.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Ron Bulman]

20 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Chuck and Ron.

I'd never seen anybody implicate Tracy Barnes as the plot designer. Where does that come from?

 

It gets deep in a hurry.  Barnes on Wall Street as a lawyer in the 1930's as an associate of Wisner.  He and Angleton both of Yale and Harvard.  His mentor after meeting in the OSS, 1944, Dulles.  COS Germany, then London.  Command of PBSUCESS, Guatemala overthrow, using Phillips, Hunt, Morales, Rip Robertson  and more. 

Cuba gets Much deeper. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Did Bundy get it from Harriman?

 

Harriman — Skull & Bones ‘13.

Bundy — Skull & Bones ‘40.

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Pushing the angle Oswald was connected to the Soviets.

Bundy called AF1 to inform Johnson there was no evidence of conspiracy.  It didn’t start with Hoover.

No, Cliff, that's not why the White House Situation Room, being run by Bundy, called AF1 with the administration people on board coming back from Dallas.  Particularly JFK aides.  It was to deliver the following message.

No matter what you think you saw in Dallas, and some had a close up view of the murder, we already have our man.  There was no conspiracy.  Things they couldn't possibly known so quickly.  It was pure intimidation to play along to the Osald story already in motion.

Read some Vince Salandria about this.

[Ron Bulman]

18 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

It gets deep in a hurry.  Barnes on Wall Street as a lawyer in the 1930's as an associate of Wisner.  He and Angleton both of Yale and Harvard.  His mentor after meeting in the OSS, 1944, Dulles.  COS Germany, then London.  Command of PBSUCESS, Guatemala overthrow, using Phillips, Hunt, Morales, Rip Robertson  and more. 

Cuba gets Much deeper. 

Barnes and Angleton, both members of, Scroll and Key the Yale alternative to Skulls and Bones. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

No, Cliff, that's not why the White House Situation Room, being run by Bundy, called AF1 with the administration people on board coming back from Dallas.  Particularly JFK aides.  It was to deliver the following message.

No matter what you think you saw in Dallas, and some had a close up view of the murder, we already have our man.  There was no conspiracy.  Things they couldn't possibly known so quickly.  It was pure intimidation to play along to the Osald story already in motion.

Read some Vince Salandria about this.

You bet.

The Tale Told by Two Tapes by Vincent Salandria  

<quote on>

[National Security Adviser] McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the [White House] Situation Room and was spending that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968, p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the Mafia and/or renegade elements. 

<quote off> 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben,

Yes, I know the answer to my question. I was asking Jim what he thought because I couldn't understand why he thought Katzenbach was such a terrible person given what he did with his memo.

 

OK. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Your go-to move.  Making faces because you can’t make a point.

You betray an odd double standard— if it’s CIA files you demand to see it.  But if a notorious Loner Nutter relates damning, conspiracy friendly information it cannot be credible, according to you.

Ralph Kramden: "Max Holland? Max Holland? Max Holland?" 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ralph Kramden: "Max Holland? Max Holland? Max Holland?" 

 

Your hostility to conspiracy-friendly info so noted.

[Sandy Larsen]

30 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ralph Kramden: "Max Holland? Max Holland? Max Holland?" 

 

 

"One of these days, Benjamin.... one of these days!" 

 

[Karl Kinaski]

 

Quote

 

I said: 

Hoover was reluctant.

 

Quote

 

@Jim said

Now I know you did not read Bart's book.

In about two hours, Hoover is pushing the Oswald angle.  The call from Carter to Dallas is about 8-9 M that night.

 

 

 Sry. I was too unspecific. 

I must add: Hoover was reluctant in the sense that he was ready to push some parts of the prewritten and than adjusted cover story, but not so lucky about other parts of it, "they" rammed down his throat. In part, IMO it came from the CIA- FBI rivalry. Didn't he say something to the effect, that he had enough of the CIA lying to him?

Since I believe the Murchison party story told by Madeleine (Duncan) Brown and May Newman(seamstress of the Murchisons) is real, Hoover had pre knowledge of the plot, but wasn't provided any details. In  the aftermath he was reluctant/angry about the amount of (strategic)info he had to swallow. That's my opinion at that point in time. 

PS I still read Bart's book everyday I went to sleep. It is like counting sheep. 

  

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Well Sandy how good does that make RFK look then?

Within about 48 hours he had fingered a CIA/Cuban exile/Mafia plot.

 

RFK lookin' good for sure.

Though any of them who were aware of Operation Northwoods in particular or false flag ops in general should have suspected that that's what Mexico City was all about. In theory, the attorney general shouldn't have known that (no need-to-know). But the president's brother may have known.

 

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And in a week, he is sending a message to Moscow saying that he knows this is a large domestic conspiracy.  And that detente will now be put on hold.

 

I wonder what he would have done with the investigation publicly had he been in charge.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Your hostility to conspiracy-friendly info so noted.

Ed Norton...he knows more than he lets on. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

"One of these days, Benjamin.... one of these days!" 

 

Oh no! You would not kick me out of the Raccoon Lodge again, would you? 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Max Holland? Max Holland? (Jackie Gleason voice, from the Honeymooners, on second or third repetition), "Max Holland?" 

FWIW, Ben. I listened to a number of the LBJ Tapes while reading along in Max's book, and his transcripts are reasonably accurate--more accurate than the transcripts to the HSCA hearings by far. There was one curious exception as I recall but for the most part they were dead on.