Wesley Buell Frazier needs to be asked some serious questions!

[Sandy Larsen]

42 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Yes, but we have very good reason indeed to believe that that smaller bag really did contain two curtain rods------------just like he told Mr. Frazier.

 

Can you tell what the reasons are for believing Oswald had curtain rods in the bag? I mean, who said he did and who said they saw them.

I find it to be quite a coincidence that he happened to be using a long bag the very day that the coverup artists could use that in their fabricated story of how Oswald got the rifle into the building.

 

[David Von Pein]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Oswald didn't just happen to get a job in the very building he needed to be working at for him to be made the patsy. The CIA plotters had to have gotten him to work there. There is just no way around that fact.

Oh brother.

[David Von Pein]

MORE TALK ABOUT BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, PAPER BAGS, CARPORT SLATS, AND CURTAIN RODS:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2018/03/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1275.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-746.html

-----------

An excerpt from the above discussions:

DVP said:

"I certainly don't think Linnie Mae was lying at all. She possibly HEARD more than she SAW.

I.E.,

She peeks out the kitchen door and HEARS the person who she just saw walk toward her brother's car (Lee Oswald). It's obvious that the person at Frazier's car at that point in time was the person Randle just saw cross the street (Oswald).

Randle then HEARS the door of Frazier's car being opened. It's also possible that she gets enough of a glimpse of Oswald through the slats of the carport to see at least a portion of Oswald as he places the bag in the car.

So, the combination of HEARING what Oswald was doing at the car and very likely SEEING a little bit of Oswald through the slats was certainly enough information, IMO, for Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle to reasonably testify in the following manner:

"He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down, so I closed the door." "

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

19 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Oh brother.

 

Hey David,

How do you explain the multiple witnesses who said they saw Oswald at a twist party at the Duran's,  witnessed Oswald being given $6500 to kill Kennedy, etc.?

How do you explain the fact that it was an Oswald imposter who was in the Cuban consulate trying to get a visa? Why would somebody do that?

 

[David Von Pein]

32 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

How do you explain the multiple witnesses who said they saw Oswald at a twist party at the Duran's, witnessed Oswald being given $6500 to kill Kennedy, etc.?

The "twist party" sighting was very likely just mistaken identity.

The "$6500" nonsense is so totally ridiculous and preposterous (even from a CT POV), it's hard to imagine even a hardline CTer buying into it. (And Vince Bugliosi covers that topic in great detail in his book, much of which I've archived at my website HERE.)

 

32 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

How do you explain the fact that it was an Oswald imposter who was in the Cuban consulate trying to get a visa? Why would somebody do that?

Do you, Sandy, really think THIS is a fake LHO visa application (complete with "fake" LHO photo and "fake" LHO signature)?

Because if that's not a fake, then the REAL Oswald WAS at the Cuban consulate in Mex. City in 1963. Simple as that.

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The "twist party" sighting was very likely just mistaken identity.

The "$6500" nonsense is so totally ridiculous and preposterous (even from a CT POV), it's hard to imagine even a hardline CTer buying into it. (And Vince Bugliosi covers that topic in great detail in his book, much of which I've archived at my website HERE.)

 

Do you, Sandy, really think THIS is a fake LHO visa application (complete with "fake" LHO photo and "fake" LHO signature)?

Because if that's not a fake, then the REAL Oswald WAS at the Cuban consulate in Mex. City in 1963. Simple as that.

 

Oswald at a twist party in MC?  How could he be if he was never in MC?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

How do you explain the multiple witnesses who said they saw Oswald at a twist party at the Duran's, witnessed Oswald being given $6500 to kill Kennedy, etc.?

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The "twist party" sighting was very likely just mistaken identity.

 

Oh really.

One witness -- Elena Garro -- saw  Oswald and a red-haired negro associate at the twist party, while a completely unrelated witness -- Gilberto Alvarado -- saw Oswald and a red-haired negro associate at the Cuban Consulate. And I suppose you believe that they both mistook the same guy as being Oswald.

Oh wait... Alvarado also witnessed the $6500 being given to Oswald and the red-haired negro to kill Kennedy.

So you believe that, not only did two unrelated witnesses mistake some guy for Oswald, but that the same guy was hired to kill Kennedy! Exactly what Oswald did. What a freakin' big coincidence!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

How do you explain the fact that it was an Oswald imposter who was in the Cuban consulate trying to get a visa? Why would somebody do that?

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Do you, Sandy, really think THIS is a fake LHO visa application (complete with "fake" LHO photo and "fake" LHO signature)?

 

The visa application is irrelevant.

The fact is, the FBI determined that it was an imposter who was in the Cuban consulate. Sylvia Duran said it was a short blond guy. Eusebio Azcue said it was a short blond guy. Even the Cuban DGI said it was an imposter.

The only folks who don't think it was an imposter are Vincent Bugliosi and his disciples.

Well, guess what Dave? Since you believe that that was the real Oswald in the Cuban Embassy, then you also must believe that he received $6500 to kill Kennedy... he and his red-haired negro associate. Because that is what Gilberto Alvarado witnessed in the consul.

 

[David Von Pein]

51 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The visa application is irrelevant.

Even though it has Oswald's picture on it AND Oswald's signature?? And yet it's still "irrelevant"??

Yeah, right.

52 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Sylvia Duran said it was a short blond guy. Eusebio Azcue said it was a short blond guy.

That's some great "Oswald imposter", isn't it? A blond guy?

Was LHO blond?

Perry, your witness.

54 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well, guess what Dave? Since you believe that that was the real Oswald in the Cuban Embassy, then you also must believe that he received $6500 to kill Kennedy... he and his red-haired negro associate. Because that is what Gilberto Alvarado witnessed in the consul.

What happened to the 6500 clams? Did Oswald blow it all on hamburgers and hookers on the way back to Texas from Mexico?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

What happened to the 6500 clams? Did Oswald blow it all on hamburgers and hookers on the way back to Texas from Mexico?

 

Hey that's your problem to figure out, not mine. You're the one who thinks the real Oswald entered the Cuban consulate.

I, on the other hand, believe it was a blond Oswald imposter... just as Hoover, Sylvia Duran, Eusebio Azcue, and the Cuban DGI thought.

The CIA would have probably thought the same had it not been they who sent the blond Oswald imposter in. And who paid Gilberto Alvarado to lie about the red-haired negro and the $6500. And paid Elena Garro to lie about the red-haired negro and the twist party. So they could make it look like Oswald was in cahoots with the Cubans when he supposedly killed Kennedy. So that the U.S. would have a pretext to invade Cuba.

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/10/2023 at 5:37 AM, Pete Mellor said:

It is after this that the story, not just from Frazier, but also from DPD detectives Rose & Stovall as well as Detectives McCabe & McCarley of the Irving P.D. becomes a mish mash of times & events.  Was Frazier in Irving when Rose and Stovall arrived at the Randle house?  Or, was it Linnie May Randle who arrived home around 14:30 when Adamcik, Rose & Stovall arrived. 

Yet, we have Rose, Stovall & Adamcik at the Paine house with a report that a neighbour approached them at around 17:30 to say that her brother had driven LHO to work that morning and had seen him put a long brown package into the back seat of her brother's car.  Did this event actually take place?  Frazier insists no event took place.

I've come to wonder over the years if Wesley and his sister Linnie Mae were not caught up in the aftermath.  I don't believe either one was involved in the plot pre assassination or had foreknowledge of it.  But they were used.  Most likely "told" how things happened.  Is that why Wes was taken back for further, in depth questioning before being released?  Might someone besides Fritz "questioned" him, someone from the Secret Service, or CIA using SS cover?  Maybe telling him it was a matter of National Security

I've also come to think maybe the bag, curtain rods or rifle under a blanket ever existed.  Lee never ordered or picked up a rifle ordered in his name.  No record of that, the money order processing . . . let's not go into that here.

But, no curtain rods ever found at the TSBD.  The Wes and Linne story that the bag fit between his arm pit and palm, too short to be a disassembled rifle.  No one saw Lee enter the TSBD with this short package or a rifle.  Wes never mentioned Lee taking the package out of the back seat when he walked ahead while Wes revved the engine to charge the battery that I remember reading of.  Was he ever asked specifically?

Not related specifically to Wes or Linne Mae but the but the rifle under a blanket?  Give me a break.  First, Ruth and Michael Paine unloaded the station wagon when Ruth brought Marina back from New Orleans.  They were specifically asked in their Warren commission testimony if they unloaded a rifle.  No.  Then the had been wrapped in a blanket on the floor, you could see the shape of it where it had been.  Please.  Go get a blanket.  Lay it out on the floor.  Wrap a rifle in it.  Un wrap it.  Go get your wife, brother, sister or mother.  Ask them what it looks like was under the blanket.   IDK, maybe a turkey thawing out for Thanksgiving?  If you really think you could identify the shape of a gun having been under a blanket, I've got some ocean front property in Amarillo for sale you should look at.

Last for now.  Not related to the bag/rifle either.  Linnie Mae, if I remember right, was badgered somewhat in her Warren Commission testimony regarding her "recommending to Ruth that Lee apply at the TSBD".  She adamantly denied this saying she said her brother had been working there several weeks (getting overtime???-just read this recently somewhere), he might apply there or at 2-3 other places she named.  She never copped to recommending Lee apply.

They never copped to the longer bag/rifle suggestions. 

I also wonder if Wes might not have had continued coaching over the years.  This was brought to light for me with his appearance and comments at the Irving, Tx library, with Hugh Aynesworth on the 50th anniversary. 

 

[Tony Krome]

57 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Wes never mentioned Lee taking the package out of the back seat when he walked ahead while Wes revved the engine to charge the battery that I remember reading of.

Wesley was directly asked what Oswald did with the package. His first response was to describe Oswald's jacket, then mentioned that he put the package up under his arm. Oswald then waited for Wesley behind the car near the fence. 

Wesley did not describe, in WC testimony, at that point, that Oswald opened up the rear door, or if he reached back for the package before exiting the car. If the package was 2 feet of lightweight curtain rods, I'd imagine he could have simply reached back with one hand and grabbed them.

[Ron Bulman]

12 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Wesley was directly asked what Oswald did with the package. His first response was to describe Oswald's jacket, then mentioned that he put the package up under his arm. Oswald then waited for Wesley behind the car near the fence. 

Wesley did not describe, in WC testimony, at that point, that Oswald opened up the rear door, or if he reached back for the package before exiting the car. If the package was 2 feet of lightweight curtain rods, I'd imagine he could have simply reached back with one hand and grabbed them.

So Wes walked to the TSBD, with Lee with the package under his arm?  I thought Lee went ahead while he revved his engine to charge the battery.

[Tony Krome]

52 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

So Wes walked to the TSBD, with Lee with the package under his arm?  I thought Lee went ahead while he revved his engine to charge the battery.

No, Wesley got out of his car, and as soon as he shut the door, they both started walking towards the TSBD. It was during the walk that Wesley decided to take his time and the distance between them increased, but in the end, only by 50 feet.

[Alan Ford]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:25 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Can you tell what the reasons are for believing Oswald had curtain rods in the bag? I mean, who said he did and who said they saw them.

I find it to be quite a coincidence that he happened to be using a long bag the very day that the coverup artists could use that in their fabricated story of how Oswald got the rifle into the building.

As Mr. Von Pein has brilliantly helped demonstrate on this thread, there is no way to explain away innocently the Crime Lab form documenting the submission of two curtain rods for testing for Mr. Oswald's prints---------------eight days prior to the 'discovery' of two curtain rods in the Paine garage. The only sensible inference is that two curtain rods had been found in the Depository.

The length estimate for the bag which Mr. Frazier and Mrs. Randle gave was extremely close: 27 inches (just half an inch off the length of the curtain rods the bag contained).

Re. the long bag: no coincidence, just quick-thinking opportunism from the coverup artists. This bag had been made in the Depository, and did not need to be brought home (to Irving or Oak Cliff). Mr. Oswald had used this bag (which shows up in Darnell) for a different purpose to that of bringing a rifle to work, i.e. to contain/hide something he needed to bring out with him to the front steps @ 12.30pm.

The cops knew this, and redeployed the long bag--------------with Mr. Oswald's prints (yum, yum)-------------as 'the bag he brought the rifle to work in'. They fabricated a story about its having been discovered at the SN. Thanks in no small part to your own work with Darnell, we know that Officer Baker was actually the first officer to see the bag-----------in front of the mailboxes out front.

If Mr. Oswald in interrogation denied having brought curtain rods to work, or even having told Mr. Frazier about them, then he will have had good reason to do so: these curtain rods had been likely needed in some way for the 11/22 'pro-Castro' political stunt.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Alan Ford