Wesley Buell Frazier needs to be asked some serious questions!

[Pat Speer]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:29 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The visa application is irrelevant.

The fact is, the FBI determined that it was an imposter who was in the Cuban consulate. Sylvia Duran said it was a short blond guy. Eusebio Azcue said it was a short blond guy. Even the Cuban DGI said it was an imposter.

The only folks who don't think it was an imposter are Vincent Bugliosi and his disciples.

Well, guess what Dave? Since you believe that that was the real Oswald in the Cuban Embassy, then you also must believe that he received $6500 to kill Kennedy... he and his red-haired negro associate. Because that is what Gilberto Alvarado witnessed in the consul.

 

Alvarado admitted he'd been lying. 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

On 11/12/2023 at 12:29 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Well, guess what Dave? Since you believe that that was the real Oswald in the Cuban Embassy, then you also must believe that he received $6500 to kill Kennedy... he and his red-haired negro associate. Because that is what Gilberto Alvarado witnessed in the consul.

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Alvarado admitted he'd been lying. 

 

Yes, of course Alvarado was lying. (Though he later said he admitted to lying only because the Mexican police threatened to hang him by his balls, or some such thing, as he changed his mind back to saying Oswald was given $6500.) Just like the others were lying about the twist party and Oswald's affair with Sylvia Duran.

They were all paid by the CIA to say those things in order to paint Oswald as conspiring with the Cubans to kill Kennedy. Or so the likely theory goes.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So Wes walked to the TSBD, with Lee with the package under his arm?  I thought Lee went ahead while he revved his engine to charge the battery.

9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

No, Wesley got out of his car, and as soon as he shut the door, they both started walking towards the TSBD. It was during the walk that Wesley decided to take his time and the distance between them increased, but in the end, only by 50 feet.

 

I don't know why there are two stories. I've read the one Ron gives multiple times. This is the first time I've seen the one recounted by Tony.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

The length estimate for the bag which Mr. Frazier and Mrs. Randle gave was extremely close: 27 inches (just half an inch off the length of the curtain rods the bag contained).

 

This is highly reminiscent of the lying that Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelly were talked into, and how they responded to it. I'll explain:

1. Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae were talked into saying that Oswald had a long bag. One in which he could carry the rifle. But they were allowed to ease their unconscious (for implying Oswald had a rifle when in fact he he didn't) by letting them say the bag was only 27 inches long. (Too short for a rifle.) The fact that they gave exactly the same length betrays the fact that they had rehearsed their story.
2. Similarly, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley were talked into saying they left the TSBD steps three minutes after Gloria Calvery arrived, in order to discredit Victoria Adams. But they were allowed to ease their unconscious (for discrediting Adams) by letting them say they weren't sure it was Adams they saw. The fact that they both said three minutes betrays the fact that they had rehearsed their story.

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yes, of course Alvarado was lying. (Though he later said he admitted to lying only because the Mexican police threatened to hang him by his balls, or some such thing, as he changed his mind back to saying Oswald was given $6500.) Just like the others were lying about the twist party and Oswald's affair with Sylvia Duran.

They were all paid by the CIA to say those things in order to paint Oswald as conspiring with the Cubans to kill Kennedy. Or so the likely theory goes.

 

Didn't the CIA reject all these stories...the ones you claim they paid people to tell? 

[Sandy Larsen]

17 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Didn't the CIA reject all these stories...the ones you claim they paid people to tell? 

 

Not those involved in the plot... Angleton and David Phillips, for example. I recall seeing indications that one or both of them were still pushing the Cuba/Oswald story years later. I should have made notes of those instances.

That's one of the reasons I don't agree with some researchers, that the Mexico City shenanigans were designed to trigger a USG coverup. I believe they were designed to create a pretext for invasion of Cuba.

However, the Johnson administration wasn't interested. He gave them the Vietnam war instead.

 

[Alan Ford]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Similarly, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley were talked into saying they left the TSBD steps three minutes after Gloria Calvery arrived, in order to discredit Victoria Adams. But they were allowed to ease their unconscious (for discrediting Adams) by letting them say they weren't sure it was Adams they saw. The fact that they both said three minutes betrays the fact that they had rehearsed their story.

Mr. Larsen, we are wholly agreed that Messrs. Lovelady and Shelley lied their heads off about their immediate post-assassination movements. But! If the point of the lying was to discredit Miss Adams, then all they had to do was say they went west to the railroad tracks and stayed there five minutes, or ten minutes------------that would easily dispose of Miss Adams' claim.

I believe that something else is behind their lies, and that the best starting point for identifying what this something is is to read Mr. Shelley's same-day affidavit: he says there he left the steps immediately after hearing the shots and ran into Mrs. Gloria Calvery out by the "corner of the park". She told him Pres. Kennedy had been hit.

Well, what is the effect of Mr. Shelley's change of story from this to his WC 'recollection' that he remained on the steps until learning from Mrs. Calvery there that Pres. Kennedy had been hit?

Simply this: it deletes the true encounter with Mrs. Calvery out by the street, thereby keeping Mr. Shelley on the steps much longer than he had actually remained there.

Then the question becomes: Why would Mr. Shelley want to erase the fact of his having left the front steps immediately after the shooting? What is he hiding?

The most logical answer IMO: Something he did, or was involved in, outside the building and away from the steps during that critical period just after the shooting.

I believe that Mr. Lovelady, who did not leave the steps with Mr. Shelley, is covering for Mr. Shelley in his 'corroboration' of the fabricated 'We went west to the railroads' story.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Jonathan Cohen]

On 11/12/2023 at 5:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I, on the other hand, believe it was a blond Oswald imposter... just as Hoover, Sylvia Duran, Eusebio Azcue, and the Cuban DGI thought.

Is there a single JFK conspiracy theory you don't believe? Genuinely curious.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

On 11/12/2023 at 3:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I, on the other hand, believe it was a blond Oswald imposter... just as Hoover, Sylvia Duran, Eusebio Azcue, and the Cuban DGI thought.

Is there a single JFK conspiracy theory you don't believe? Genuinely curious.

 

I don't believe most JFKA conspiracy theories.

But I think that the one I believe is pretty close to being the truth.

BTW, if you disagree with J. Edgar Hoover, Sylvia Duran, Eusebio Azcue, and the Cuban DGI, and many researchers here, and insist that it was Oswald at the Cuban consulate, you are never going to know what the truth is.

 

[Pat Speer]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't believe most JFKA conspiracy theories.

But I think that the one I believe is pretty close to being the truth.

BTW, if you disagree with J. Edgar Hoover, Sylvia Duran, Eusebio Azcue, and the Cuban DGI, and many researchers here, and insist that it was Oswald at the Cuban consulate, you are never going to know what the truth is.

 

??? Sylvia Duran, last I heard, believed she'd met the real Oswald. 

FWIW, many researchers believe Oswald went to Mexico, but was impersonated on the phone calls for various reasons. Essentially, the CIA suspected it had a mole, and didn't want the information regarding Oswald's visit to the Russian embassy to be reported back to Russia, as this would expose a human source. So they PRETENDED they'd intercepted a phone call in which Oswald spilled all the details they'd actually been provided from within the embassy. 

If the WC or HSCA had compared ALL such phone calls at that time, they may very well have uncovered dozens of other instances where people contacting the embassy were impersonated afterward. But they didn't. National security and all. 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Alan Ford said:

If the point of the [Lovelady & Shelley] lying was to discredit Miss Adams, then all they had to do was say they went west to the railroad tracks and stayed there five minutes, or ten minutes------------that would easily dispose of Miss Adams' claim

 

True. Or all they had to do is say they remained on the steps for three minutes. Either one works.

But if you look at all their statements, you will see that their story kept changing. In one version of the story, the two crossed the street and stood at the little concrete island for a while. I think the story kept changing because they were trying to make it fit with other things. I don't think we'll ever be able to figure it all out.

As for Shelley meeting Calvery at the little concrete island as he said in his first-day statement, I think they dropped that just to simplify the story. But who knows?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

??? Sylvia Duran, last I heard, believed she'd met the real Oswald. 

 

At first Duran thought that she DID meet the real Oswald., because the name matched. And because she was arrested on account of the assassination. But later, when shown a photo of Oswald, she said that he wasn't the guy she'd talked to. She said that the guy she talked to had blond hair. And was about her height IIRC. She pretty much agreed with Consul Azcue at that time.

 

[Pat Speer]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

At first Duran thought that she DID meet the real Oswald., because the name matched. And because she was arrested on account of the assassination. But later, when shown a photo of Oswald, she said that he wasn't the guy she'd talked to. She said that the guy she talked to had blond hair. And was about her height IIRC. She pretty much agreed with Consul Azcue at that time.

 

The Cuban Government claims it was Oswald.

From Spartacus (by John Simkin, the founder of this Forum) 

(5) Arturo Rodriguez, Oswald in Mexico (August 1995)

The visit of Lee Harvey Oswald to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, in the fall of 1963, was the highlight of a project to blame Cuba for the assassination of President Kennedy.

To understand the scheme of the plot, it will be necessary to look at Oswald's past, his arrival in New Orleans in the spring of the same year, the activities he carried out there which identified him with supporters of the Cuban Revolution, the incidents with the Cuban exiles and the publicity given to this, his encounter with two elements of the CIA in September in Dallas, the incident with the Cuban exile, Silvia Odio, and finally his trip to Mexico and the negotiations carried out in the Cuban and Soviet Consulates to obtain a visa to allow him to travel to those countries.

In the investigation of Oswald's past, from the time he entered the U.S. armed forces on Oct. 24, 1956, until his return from the Soviet Union on June 2, 1962, it was evident that we were witnessing an intelligence agent, who "deserted" with a very definite purpose, subordinated to a project, directed by the CIA or other US intelligence service. We believe it to be that today, in light of the information known, shared by many, the reason why we won't dwell on its reasoning. Nevertheless, we are at your disposal to discuss our arguments at a convenient time...

Statements given by witnesses Eusebio Azcue and Alfredo Mirabal and by the Mexican Silvia Duran - known to all of you - allows us to establish the fact that an individual identified as Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Cuban office on three occasions.

Silvia Duran recalls these visits to be on the 27th, although Azcue considers that the first two (visits) took place on that day which happened to have been a Friday, and the third on Saturday the 28th. Mirabal's statements are not so precise.

The chronology of the visits were known 15 years after the assassination. While Mrs. Duran's statements collected in total during interrogations conducted by the Mexican police, given to the CIA station there and later to the Warren Commission, (outlined) the relation of Oswald's encounters and other important data.

A brief review of these visits can be resumed in the following:

a. The people that personally take care and speak to him were secretary Duran and the consul Azcue. Comrade Mirabal, who did not speak English, is an eye witness of his presence on more than one occasion, at a distance of approximately four meters.

b. Oswald applied for a visa to Cuba on his way to the USSR, expressing his wish to travel on the 30th of September, staying in Havana from one to two weeks.

c. He showed documents and said he belonged to the US Communist party and was secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba in New Orleans. He showed a dubious passport - and as you can remember- he was issued a new one-stating his residency to be the USSR from October 1959 to June 1962 and a marriage certificate with a Soviet citizen.

d. Silvia Duran made up the form for his visa application adding to it the photos given by the subject, which was signed in her presence. This form included all documents presented by the subject for the purpose of his application and was signed by Alfredo Mirabal (at the bottom of the application) attesting to this.

e. The Cubans, under instructions in force at that time, told the applicant that it was impossible to grant him a visa for the time he requested it for, until the country of destination had granted it.

f. The situation of this subject was such, that Azcue as well as Duran called the Soviet consulate to explain his case.

g. During the subject's visit to the Soviet consulate, it was explained to him that requirements for granting a visa to that country took generally two to three months, the reason why he would have to wait that long.

h. He returned to the Cuban consulate somewhat disturbed and tried to force the visa granting, leading to an altercation between himself and consul Azcue, for which he was ordered out of the office.

This altercation was in the presence of comrade Mirabal and Antonio Garcia Lara, an official of the commercial office, who, at hearing the discussion and thinking this might be a provocation, went downstairs to the consulate office and was able to see the subject leaving.

Another witness to the visit was Guillermo Ruiz, in charge of the commercial office, who at the time was going to his office, was intercepted by Azcue who was arguing with a North American subject and asks him, since he spoke good English, to explain to him again why he was denied the visa and the reasons why. Ruiz did this and had a chance to look at the subject's face for a few seconds at a short distance.

Since the moments after the Kennedy assassination, our embassy's personnel in Mexico noticed, with the exception of Azcue who was back in Cuba, that the accused assassin was the same person that had visited them in September. Alfredo Mirabal informed his Ministry officially, Lara only commented about it, given the small participation they had in the events and knowing of the report made by Mirabal, an official superior to them.

On his part, Azcue in Cuba, did not recognize Oswald's photos published by the press as the person who visited the Cuban Consulate in Mexico.

This contradiction between Azcue and Mirabal, were made evident in statements given by both to the investigators of the Select Committee in 1978.

As for Mrs. Duran, she recognized Oswald from the first moment as the person that she helped in the Cuban Consulate at the end of September 1963.

The investigations done by us show that the typewriter used to fill out the questionnaire form of the subject said to be named Oswald, was the same one as the one in Mrs. Duran's office, used to fill out other forms. The photo was Oswald and if we note the Warren Commission's verdict, the signature in the document was also his. There is one additional element. The signature of comrade Mirabal, attesting to the data given by the applicant, was his. There is no doubt.

An arithmetic addition of the testimonies tell us that four (persons) recognized Oswald as the person that visited and requested a visa, and one and only one, Azcue, did not recognized him. Other evidence already explained, points out that it was Oswald and not someone else who visited the Consulate.

As such, we conclude that the subject that identified himself as Lee Harvey Oswald, during a visit to the Consulate in the month of September of 1963, to request a transit visa to Cuba, was indeed the same person, that after the - was identified by the same names.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The Cuban Government claims it was Oswald [in the Cuban Consulate].

 

I don't think so Pat.

Following is an excerpt from a 1978 CBS Evening News report given by newsman Ed Rabel:

Cuban officials suggest that the man who applied for the visa [in the Cuban Consulate] was really a CIA agent [i.e. not Oswald] who was part of the plot to link Oswald with Cuba.

The Cubans published the phot[o] today, which they say was taken of the man posing as Oswald as he left the consulate back in 1963. The photo, they said, was taken by other CIA agents stationed in an espionage center located near the consulate. The Cubans suggest that the CIA has the photo in its files and should be forced to release it. The photograph is apparently a copy of the one the CIA released to the Warren Commission, but later withdrew. No Cuban official has explained why the consul did not question the applicant for the visa about why the photograph he submitted did not remotely resemble him.

 

As I said, the Cubans thought that the guy who said he was LHO was really an imposter... a CIA agent playing the role of Oswald.

This is essentially Cuba's conspiracy theory, and it's pretty much the same as mine. Except they don't understand the significance of the blond imposter. (I do.)

 

[Pete Mellor]

On 11/13/2023 at 6:19 AM, Ron Bulman said:

Might someone besides Fritz "questioned" him, someone from the Secret Service, or CIA using SS cover?  Maybe telling him it was a matter of National Security

No.  In fact Fritz didn't question him, according to Frazier's Interview with Gary Mack in 2002.  The interrogation of Frazier was with Rose & Stovall.  After hours with the two detectives Fritz made his appearance with a statement for Wes to sign, which resulted in the threat of a fist fight.

 

On 11/13/2023 at 6:19 AM, Ron Bulman said:

Is that why Wes was taken back for further, in depth questioning before being released? 

Wes was taken back to DPD HQ to undergo a polygraph test that Fritz wanted him to take.  Who knows why?  Maybe just because Wes had stood up to Fritz in refusing to sign any statement.  Bent cops can also be vindictive.

Rose & Stovall knew Frazier was telling the truth and in the clear because at the same time he was being interrogated, Linnie was also being questioned in a different room and their two stories matched.