Paul Landis, the Slug, and the Dented Cartridge

[Benjamin Cole]

If what Secret Service agent Paul Landis says is true...how did that happen?

How did a Western Cartridge 6.5 slug end up on the top of the rear seat of the Presidential limo on 11/22, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA?

It does not appear, from Landis' account, there was an opportunity to plant such an artifact. 

Then, there is the aspect that the bullet wound in JFK's back extended into his body by only about two inches, possibly less. Attempts to probe the wound were unsuccessful.  OK, if the JFK back wound was that shallow, the slug could have popped out from subsequent pressure or shock waves to JFK's body.  

I have done the math (relying on industry data), and if the assassin that day used an undercharged Western Cartridge 6.5 bullet, it works out.

A slug fired at ~600-700 feet per second (fps) would have minimal drop at 50 yards, and would be underpowered, but would likely penetrate JFK. A WCC 6.5 full load slug leaves the barrel at 2,300 fps. Many handguns fire at around 1000 fps. 

But, an underpowered WCC 6.5 direct from factory appears unlikely. The record appears to show WC was a very good manufacturer. 

But...we know private-sector gunshops were re-loading WCC 6.5 ammo in the early 1960s, and we do not know where LHO got his ammo, or even if LHO acquired his ammo from a hobbyist. Re-loading ammo is done by many target shooters, to this day, to save money. 

Which brings up the mysterious "dented" WCC 6.5 cartridge found in the TSBD, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. The bullet's lip (where the slug is inserted into the cartridge) was dented on one of the three WC 6.5 cartridges (aka hulls, shells) found in the sniper's nest.  

Some have said this means the dented cartridge was useless--it was an empty cartridge, and this suggests LHO (or other party) could have fired only two rounds. See this: 

https://kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Griffith/Dented_shell.html

But...suppose LHO (or other party) was short on ammo. It seems LHO had only four rounds total.

Such a hobbyist, or LHO himself, could have hand reloaded a WCC 6.5 cartridge, somewhat crudely crimping the nose.  Hence the dented nose.

Was it this first hand-loaded and underpowered slug that struck JFK in the back? That would explain the shallow wound. 

Also, many witnesses described the first of three audible shots as not as loud, and different in pitch, from the following two rapid, very loud audible shots. (BTW I suspect there were also inaudible shots that day).

Anyways, there it is. Up for discussion. 

If what Paul Landis says is true...then how to explain it? 

PS. A properly loaded WC 6.5 round, fired at 2,300 fps, would have penetrated and passed through JFK's torso, as did the slug that passed through Gov. Connally.  

[Alan Ford]

Watch Mrs. Kennedy's left hand

[Benjamin Cole]

43 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Watch Mrs. Kennedy's left hand

AF-

Thanks for your comment. 

Yes, Ms. Kennedy's left hand is mentioned by Landis and Robenalt. 

Perhaps she dislodged the first slug. 

My guess (apologies for this horrible graphic description) is the second slug, that hit JFK in the head, sent a shock wave through his body, and that impact and wave dislodged the first slug. 

Just IMHO. 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If what Secret Service agent Paul Landis says is true...how did that happen?

How did a Western Cartridge 6.5 slug end up on the top of the rear seat of the Presidential limo on 11/22, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA?

It does not appear, from Landis' account, there was an opportunity to plant such an artifact. 

Then, there is the aspect that the bullet wound in JFK's back extended into his body by only about two inches, possibly less. Attempts to probe the wound were unsuccessful.  OK, if the JFK back wound was that shallow, the slug could have popped out from subsequent pressure or shock waves to JFK's body.  

I have done the math (relying on industry data), and if the assassin that day used an undercharged Western Cartridge 6.5 bullet, it works out.

A slug fired at ~600-700 feet per second (fps) would have minimal drop at 50 yards, and would be underpowered, but would likely penetrate JFK.

But according to SSA Glen Bennett’s well-corroborated contemporaneous written account JFK was shot immediately before the head shot — about 90 yards from the “short load” location.

Undercharged round misses the target by inches over 90 yards?

No way.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

But according to SSA Glen Bennett’s well-corroborated contemporaneous written account JFK was shot immediately before the head shot — about 90 yards from the “short load” location.

Undercharged round misses the target by inches over 90 yards?

No way.

Many witnesses describe the sequence of shots as first to JFK (timed to when JFK was behind the Stemmons Freeway sign or shortly before, as seen in the Z film), then JBC, then JFK again. 

Indeed, JBC and his wife describe the sequence this way. 

As noted by thousands, Ms. Kennedy looks concerned and focused on JFK by Z228. By then, JFK has his balled fists at his throat. It sure looks like JFK has been shot. 

My own two cents is JFK shot behind just before disappearing behind the Stemmons sign, that is ~Z220, then JBC is hot at ~Z295 and then JFK at Z313. 

We are on different pages on this one, and so it goes. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Many witnesses describe the sequence of shots as first to JFK (timed to when JFK was behind the Stemmons Freeway sign or shortly before, as seen in the Z film), then JBC, then JFK again. 

And no one describes the back shot first.  Bennett could not have seen the back shot that early — he was looking to the right in Willis 5 (Z202).

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Indeed, JBC and his wife describe the sequence this way. 

As noted by thousands, Ms. Kennedy looks concerned and focused on JFK by Z228. By then, JFK has his balled fists at his throat. It sure looks like JFK has been shot. 

Sure, he was shot in the throat.  That’s why his fists were balled — so he wouldn’t get shot in the throat again.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My own two cents is JFK shot behind just before disappearing behind the Stemmons sign, that is ~Z220,

Shot in the throat, sure.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

then JBC is hot at ~Z295 and then JFK at Z313. 

You weren’t there.  Bennett was.

[Benjamin Cole]

43 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

And no one describes the back shot first.  Bennett could not have seen the back shot that early — he was looking to the right in Willis 5 (Z202).

Sure, he was shot in the throat.  That’s why his fists were balled — so he wouldn’t get shot in the throat again.

Shot in the throat, sure.

You weren’t there.  Bennett was.

JBC and his wife were there too. 

And other witnesses. There is conflicting testimony. Some people even heard only two shots, and others four. Even on basics, different recollections among earnest observers. Some heard shots from the GK, others only from the TSBD. 

Now, we have a reputable, credible witness (Landis) who says he found a slug, that looked like CE399, on the top of the rear seat of the presidential limo, in the near-immediate aftermath of the JFKA. 

What I have tried to lay out is one explanation of how that could have happened. 

You have a different view. So it goes. 

 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JBC and his wife were there too. 

And neither claimed JFK was shot in the back initially.  

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And other witnesses.

None of whom claimed the first shot struck his back.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

There is conflicting testimony.

Not in regard to the back wound.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

Some people even heard only two shots, and others four. Even on basics, different recollections among earnest observers. Some heard shots from the GK, others only from the TSBD. 

None of that has anything to do with the back wound.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Now, we have a reputable, credible witness (Landis) who says he found a slug, that looked like CE399, on the top of the rear seat of the presidential limo, in the near-immediate aftermath of the JFKA. 

So what?  Bennett’s account was contemporaneous and corroborated by Willis 5 and Altgens 6.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

What I have tried to lay out is one explanation of how that could have happened. 

You have zero basis for claiming a first-shot/back shot.  None.

[Benjamin Cole]

12 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

And neither claimed JFK was shot in the back initially.  

None of whom claimed the first shot struck his back.

Not in regard to the back wound.

None of that has anything to do with the back wound.

So what?  Bennett’s account was contemporaneous and corroborated by Willis 5 and Altgens 6.

You have zero basis for claiming a first-shot/back shot.  None.

As I said, we are just on different pages on this one. 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As I said, we are just on different pages on this one. 

 

The Zfilm shows JFK reacting first to the throat shot; Bennett’s corroborated account puts the back shot later.  These facts are contrary to your pet theory so your mind is closed to them.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The Zfilm shows JFK reacting first to the throat shot; Bennett’s corroborated account puts the back shot later.  These facts are contrary to your pet theory so your mind is closed to them.

CV-

Try for a cordial, collegial style in your commentary. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

CV-

Try for a cordial, collegial style in your commentary. 

I find that approach to your blatant obfuscation intellectually dishonest.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Some new info, courtesy of hand-loaders, gun boards---

Q. How do you tell if a bullet has been hand-reloaded?

Here is an online photo  CE 543, the modestly "dented" cartridge found in the sniper's nest. You can just see an imperfection on the lip or nose of the cartridge. 

Here are answers to how to tell whether a bullet has been hand-loaded or not:

 

Look at the brass. If you look close, you should be able to see if it's been through a re-sizing die or not.
Factory new ammo will be very straight and clean. Reloaded ammo won't be quite as perfect.
Also look for tarnish on the brass. A lot of the brass I reload has stains and imperfections that don't fully come out in the tumbler - unless they wet tumble, then it gets pretty clean

Also

Check for light scoring, or small dents on the case. Also the case head might have marks from an extractor. Mixed head stamps are a give away as well.

Indeed, there is a small dent on the CE543 cartridge, and the nose does not make a perfect circle.

Interesting, no? 

[Cliff Varnell]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Some new info, courtesy of hand-loaders, gun boards---

Q. How do you tell if a bullet has been hand-reloaded?

Here is an online photo  CE 543, the modestly "dented" cartridge found in the sniper's nest. You can just see an imperfection on the lip or nose of the cartridge. 

Here are answers to how to tell whether a bullet has been hand-loaded or not:

 

Look at the brass. If you look close, you should be able to see if it's been through a re-sizing die or not.
Factory new ammo will be very straight and clean. Reloaded ammo won't be quite as perfect.
Also look for tarnish on the brass. A lot of the brass I reload has stains and imperfections that don't fully come out in the tumbler - unless they wet tumble, then it gets pretty clean

Also

Check for light scoring, or small dents on the case. Also the case head might have marks from an extractor. Mixed head stamps are a give away as well.

Indeed, there is a small dent on the CE543 cartridge, and the nose does not make a perfect circle.

Interesting, no? 

According to you, Ben, this round had to have been fired 50 - 60 yards away. 

JFK was 90 yards away when he was shot in the back.

[Jean Ceulemans]

* IMAGES deleted to save space*

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans