Paul Landis, the Slug, and the Dented Cartridge

[Gary Murr]

You, Ben, and others may, or may not, be interested in the attached links. The conclusions of the article, well...

http://publiusvaleri.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/The-National-Archives-Switches-Shells-in-Midstream-11-22-2016.pdf 

http://publiusvaleri.us/switched-shells-gallery/ 

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

That looks A LOT like the old style Italian crimp, the ones I have show this, and when looked at from the right angle so do all the Italian made ones.

The crimp is a few mm's below the edge of the hull.  In Italy these hulls were sometimes re-used (in periods of shortage) but often would still show the mark.   The ones I have are such re-used ones still showing were that old crimp was (to be clear, mine are in the second picture here)

But I have never seen a WCC crimp like that... so it is doubtfull, but it sure looks a lot like it.

Unless we are being fooled and some of the WC WCC hulls are not WCC.... (could explain why in the comparison photo's of marks I only find one of the two showing parts of the "WCC" stamp... still haven't figured that one out)

I wish we could see a picture of the side of that indent of cartridge in the archives ?

@Gary Murr ?

 

JC--thanks for your comments. 

It was you (along with the Landis revelation) that inspired me to think more about the WC ammo, and one round could have been hand-loaded.

It is clear WC 6.5 ammo was available in the Dallas area, and at least one gun shop there was hand loading ammo.

There are no records of home hobbyist hand-loaders in the Dallas area, or for that matter, New Orleans, but hand-loading has been a thing among target shooters from well before the 1960s. 

Ergo, the possibility that the assassin on 11/22 had an under-loaded shot is interesting, when added to the Landis revelation.

And now, with the "dent" in the lip of CE 543....and so many witnesses said the first shot was lower in pitch or volume than the succeeding shots...

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

According to you, Ben, this round had to have been fired 50 - 60 yards away. 

JFK was 90 yards away when he was shot in the back.

CV-

I suspect JFK was shot in the back just before passing behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. As I recall, that is about 50-60 yards.

[Jean Ceulemans]

29 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JC--thanks for your comments. 

It was you (along with the Landis revelation) that inspired me to think more about the WC ammo, and one round could have been hand-loaded.

It is clear WC 6.5 ammo was available in the Dallas area, and at least one gun shop there was hand loading ammo.

There are no records of home hobbyist hand-loaders in the Dallas area, or for that matter, New Orleans, but hand-loading has been a thing among target shooters from well before the 1960s. 

Ergo, the possibility that the assassin on 11/22 had an under-loaded shot is interesting, when added to the Landis revelation.

And now, with the "dent" in the lip of CE 543....and so many witnesses said the first shot was lower in pitch or volume than the succeeding shots...

As it seems the carcano ammo had became kinda harder to get ? That would induce re-use of the cartridges (if one could get the bullets). But Gary likely can tell us more about the availabily in mid 1963 ?

[Jean Ceulemans]

3 hours ago, Gary Murr said:

You, Ben, and others may, or may not, be interested in the attached links. The conclusions of the article, well...

http://publiusvaleri.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/The-National-Archives-Switches-Shells-in-Midstream-11-22-2016.pdf 

http://publiusvaleri.us/switched-shells-gallery/ 

Thanks, one can not make up this stuff, amazing.

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, Jean Ceulemans said:

As it seems the carcano ammo had became kinda harder to get ? That would induce re-use of the cartridges (if one could get the bullets). But Gary likely can tell us more about the availabily in mid 1963 ?

Maybe that played a role, scarcity. Although I think it was you that posted an ad showing Klein's was selling the ammo. 

Gunshops in Dallas had the WC 6.5 ammo, in late 1963.

If I had to guess, the JFKA was a very small conspiracy, involving perhaps even just two exiles or mercs from Miami, LHO, and possibly a higher up who fed the two exiles tips, info, but who was not at the scene. 

The duo may have arrived in Dallas, and as you say, discovered not enough WC 6.5 ammo, but were able to fashion another bullet. 

For me, the idea that the JFKA was a large and sophisticated op has stemmed from the cover-up. The CIA could not afford the story to come out that three CIA assets, two rogues and one unwitting participant, had murdered JFK. But the cover up created a huge mystery around the event. And, indeed, perhaps a higher-up CIA official was involved, who leaked info to the two rogues on how to approach LHO. 

The JFKA shoestring op might, as you say, have faced a scarcity of WC 6.5 ammo, on short notice. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

14 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Thanks, one can not make up this stuff, amazing.

Thanks for posting. Those are the best photos of CE 543, and the dent, that I have seen. 

Yes, it appears two hulls were mixed up. 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

CV-

I suspect JFK was shot in the back just before passing behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. As I recall, that is about 50-60 yards.

The Zfilm, Willis 5, Altgens 6, the statements of Glen Bennett, Linda Willis, and Nellie Connally debunk your baseless assertion.

Your mis-representation of the evidence is egregious.

[Cliff Varnell]

Deleted

Edited November 4, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

On 11/4/2023 at 4:33 AM, Gary Murr said:

You, Ben, and others may, or may not, be interested in the attached links. The conclusions of the article, well...

http://publiusvaleri.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/The-National-Archives-Switches-Shells-in-Midstream-11-22-2016.pdf 

http://publiusvaleri.us/switched-shells-gallery/ 

Best photos of the dented cartridge I have seen...thanks 

[Alan Ford]

Mr. Landis pointing to where he says he found the bullet. Same place where Mrs. Kennedy's left hand appears to leave something:

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Alan Ford said:

Mr. Landis pointing to where he says he found the bullet. Same place where Mrs. Kennedy's left hand appears to leave something:

Interesting. 

[Alan Ford]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Interesting. 

Thanks, Mr. Cole. When the Landis story broke, many folks' first reaction was, 'He says he found the bullet where????'

It just seemed like a crazy location.

Well, Zapruder renders it plausible. If Mr. Landis is misremembering or fabricating then we have

EITHER

a. an enormous fluke

OR

b. a calculated deception inspired by Zapruder

Edited November 15, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Benjamin Cole]

51 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Thanks, Mr. Cole. When the Landis story broke, many folks' first reaction was, 'He says he found the bullet where????'

It just seemed like a crazy location.

Well, Zapruder renders it plausible. If Mr. Landis is misremembering or fabricating then we have

EITHER

a. an enormous fluke

OR

b. a calculated deception inspired by Zapruder

I regard the Paul Landis story as plausible. 

If the rear back JFK wound-making bullet never transited JFK's body---that is, the wound was only one or two inches deep, as one of the autopsists said---then the Landis story makes sense. 

Jim Robenalt says Landis is credible. 

The dented WCC 6.5 cartridge may be the result of an amateur hand reloading, resulting in an under-powered slug. 

Interesting.

 

 

[Alan Ford]

40 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I regard the Paul Landis story as plausible. 

If the rear back JFK wound-making bullet never transited JFK's body---that is, the wound was only one or two inches deep, as one of the autopsists said---then the Landis story makes sense. 

Jim Robenalt says Landis is credible. 

The dented WCC 6.5 cartridge may be the result of an amateur hand reloading, resulting in an under-powered slug. 

Interesting.

I agree!

The only remaining substantive objections are:

1. 'Why did he wait so long to tell what happened?'

2. 'How could he possibly have been so unprofessional as to leave the bullet where he says he left it?'

Seems to me Q.1 is plausibly answered by Q.2.