“New evidence” why the SBT is impossible so says the video

[Donald Willis]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:00 AM, Jean Ceulemans said:

I don't see how any of these reenactments can conclude something with some certainty.

1 ) someone could have shot from the window within a rather large number of positions, some inches to the left, right, up, down,.... so the beginning of the traject is variable

2)  when we see there is even discussion on where exactly he was hit, that's also variable (to the extend that I have stopped reading the discussions on that topic)  

3) his exact position when hit seems also open for debate.

So, there are a bunch of variables from the beginning to the end and in between, any conclusions on the angle and bullet trajectory, given those variables will be questionable.

IMO at best one can conclude it was possible to hit the President... like we didn't know that, just like we know some things are impossible.

Now, I don't have a problem with amateurs or scientists trying it, but they will never reach a conclusion that will be shared by a majority. 

It will be used to promote a certain POV, but that's it, it will not solve anything.  

It would be different if a number of things were certain, but they simply are not (judging by the many differents opinions on them)

 

On 11/22/2023 at 6:00 AM, Jean Ceulemans said:

   Variables & trajectory.  Those variables make possible, among other things, Claviger's insistence (some time back) that an accidental shot from the SS car behind JFK was the kill shot.  Or is that just TOO variable?  And, yes, there are other problems with that scenario, concerning sound and angle of rifle, which seem a little more compelling...

 

 

[Pat Speer]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:00 AM, Jean Ceulemans said:

I don't see how any of these reenactments can conclude something with some certainty.

1 ) someone could have shot from the window within a rather large number of positions, some inches to the left, right, up, down,.... so the beginning of the traject is variable

2)  when we see there is even discussion on where exactly he was hit, that's also variable (to the extend that I have stopped reading the discussions on that topic)  

3) his exact position when hit seems also open for debate.

So, there are a bunch of variables from the beginning to the end and in between, any conclusions on the angle and bullet trajectory, given those variables will be questionable.

IMO at best one can conclude it was possible to hit the President... like we didn't know that, just like we know some things are impossible.

Now, I don't have a problem with amateurs or scientists trying it, but they will never reach a conclusion that will be shared by a majority. 

It will be used to promote a certain POV, but that's it, it will not solve anything.  

It would be different if a number of things were certain, but they simply are not (judging by the many differents opinions on them)

 

 

You are correct in that it's difficult to determine exactly what happened. But the WC and HSCA pretended to know what happened, and what they claimed is certifiably false. 

To make the SBT trajectory work, the WC pretended the back wound was inches higher than its actual location, and that JBC's seat was 6 inches inboard of the door, when it was actually 2 1/2 inches...

To make the SBT work, the HSCA pretended JFK was leaning forward at the time of the SBT shot, and that Oswald connected on this shot while point aiming, that is, not actually holding the rifle up to his eye. 

They couldn't get the SBT to work. So they lied. 

[David Von Pein]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:51 PM, Pat Speer said:

To make the SBT trajectory work, the WC pretended the back wound was inches higher than its actual location, and that JBC's seat was 6 inches inboard of the door, when it was actually 2 1/2 inches...

2012 DISCUSSION RE: THE LIMOUSINE'S JUMP SEAT MEASUREMENTS....

DVP SAID:

The more I think about this topic, the more convinced I am becoming that the U.S. Secret Service (Thomas J. Kelley [at 5 H 132]) merely measured the "inboard" distance of John Connally's jump seat from a different place from that which appears on the official Hess & Eisenhardt body draft of the 1961 Lincoln limousine, just as I speculated when I said this:

"I think BOTH Kelley and the Hess & Eisenhardt schematic are correct. And that's because Kelley's measurement must have been taken from a slightly different place on the car than was the H&E measurement for the jump seat location. Do you really think Kelley just MADE UP his six-inch figure? I don't. I think that measurement must have been different because they were measuring from a different starting point. Or, perhaps the "finishing point" was different than H&E's." -- DVP; April 12, 2012

Now, when we look at the two pictures below, I can easily envision the Secret Service's measurement for the jump seat being calculated from a different starting point on the car to account for the 3.5-inch difference in the measurements when compared to Hess & Eisenhardt.

If the Secret Service measurement also included the area between the arrows in the second picture, it looks to me as though that would add up to just about six inches when the 2.50-inch measurement in the H&E diagram is included too:


 

CLICK TO ENLARGE:


Furthermore, the HSCA also used the six-inch [approx. 15 cm.] figure, when it said this:

"Connally...was seated well within the car on the jump seat ahead of Kennedy; a gap of slightly less than 15 centimeters separated this seat from the car door."
-- HSCA Volume 6; Page 49

Moreover, the HSCA's "slightly less than 15 centimeters" figure was obviously NOT being derived solely from Thomas Kelley's testimony, because just after citing the "15 centimeters" measurement at 6 HSCA 49, the HSCA gives a source for the 15-cm. measurement—Figure II-19, at 6 HSCA 50—which is the H&E body draft of the limo, which says the jump seat is 2.50 inches inboard. Which makes me think the HSCA was also using a measurement that included the 2.50-inch measurement we see specified in the H&E body draft PLUS an additional 3.5 inches of space that I've outlined with arrows in my photo above.

I'll also add this:

At one point in the endnotes in his JFK book, when Vincent Bugliosi cited his source for a "six-inch gap" between the jump seat and the limo door, Vince cited the HSCA and not Thomas Kelley's Warren Commission testimony:

"A six-inch gap separated Connally's jump seat from the right door [6 HSCA 49]." -- "Reclaiming History"; Page 344 of Endnotes

Final Thought:

In my opinion, BOTH Thomas Kelley and the Hess & Eisenhardt measurements are accurate. It's just that each of those figures was calculated in a different manner, utilizing a different starting point on the SS-100-X limousine. That's all.

2008 "JUMP SEAT" DISCUSSION:
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Dale Myers And The SBT
 

On 12/20/2023 at 2:51 PM, Pat Speer said:

They couldn't get the SBT to work. So they lied. 

ALSO FROM A 2012 DISCUSSION....

DVP SAID:

As for Shaneyfelt and Specter [et al] deliberately lying about the back-wound location, you're being way too harsh on those men....mainly because we KNOW that some things had to be approximated as far as the SBT trajectory analysis is concerned. And the word "approximately" is used in Shaneyfelt's testimony 24 different times when they get to the subject of the SBT and the 5/24/64 re-enactment in Dealey Plaza. 24 times!

So, many things are only the BEST GUESSES of people like Shaneyfelt and Robert Frazier, et al, when dealing with the subject of the Single-Bullet Theory and the precise positioning of the two victims, etc.

Plus, the Warren Commission's whole SBT scenario was based on an AVERAGE (or approximate) positioning of the limo between a 16-frame range of Zapruder Film frames (Z210-Z225). They merely split the difference and used, in essence, Z217.5 as their SBT frame, which is exactly what we see in Commission Exhibit 903, which is an exhibit that thoroughly demolishes the idea that the Warren Commission needed to move the wound in JFK's upper back into his neck, because it's obvious that the wound on the JFK stand-in is far below the neck. For some reason, however, CTers refuse to acknowledge this fact.

To reiterate an important point:

The Warren Commission didn't lie because they just flat-out had no reason to lie. And that's because Lee Harvey Oswald, by himself, really did kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit. And Oswald's own actions, plus all of the physical evidence he left behind, proves that he was guilty. And that fact was proven many days before there ever was a "Warren Commission", as illustrated in Henry Wade's 11/24/63 news conference.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

2012 DISCUSSION RE: THE LIMOUSINE'S JUMP SEAT MEASUREMENTS....

DVP SAID:

The more I think about this topic, the more convinced I am becoming that the U.S. Secret Service (Thomas J. Kelley [at 5 H 132]) merely measured the "inboard" distance of John Connally's jump seat from a different place from that which appears on the official Hess & Eisenhardt body draft of the 1961 Lincoln limousine, just as I speculated when I said this:

"I think BOTH Kelley and the Hess & Eisenhardt schematic are correct. And that's because Kelley's measurement must have been taken from a slightly different place on the car than was the H&E measurement for the jump seat location. Do you really think Kelley just MADE UP his six-inch figure? I don't. I think that measurement must have been different because they were measuring from a different starting point. Or, perhaps the "finishing point" was different than H&E's." -- DVP; April 12, 2012

Now, when we look at the two pictures below, I can easily envision the Secret Service's measurement for the jump seat being calculated from a different starting point on the car to account for the 3.5-inch difference in the measurements when compared to Hess & Eisenhardt.

If the Secret Service measurement also included the area between the arrows in the second picture, it looks to me as though that would add up to just about six inches when the 2.50-inch measurement in the H&E diagram is included too:


 

CLICK TO ENLARGE:


Furthermore, the HSCA also used the six-inch [approx. 15 cm.] figure, when it said this:

"Connally...was seated well within the car on the jump seat ahead of Kennedy; a gap of slightly less than 15 centimeters separated this seat from the car door."
-- HSCA Volume 6; Page 49

Moreover, the HSCA's "slightly less than 15 centimeters" figure was obviously NOT being derived solely from Thomas Kelley's testimony, because just after citing the "15 centimeters" measurement at 6 HSCA 49, the HSCA gives a source for the 15-cm. measurement—Figure II-19, at 6 HSCA 50—which is the H&E body draft of the limo, which says the jump seat is 2.50 inches inboard. Which makes me think the HSCA was also using a measurement that included the 2.50-inch measurement we see specified in the H&E body draft PLUS an additional 3.5 inches of space that I've outlined with arrows in my photo above.

I'll also add this:

At one point in the endnotes in his JFK book, when Vincent Bugliosi cited his source for a "six-inch gap" between the jump seat and the limo door, Vince cited the HSCA and not Thomas Kelley's Warren Commission testimony:

"A six-inch gap separated Connally's jump seat from the right door [6 HSCA 49]." -- "Reclaiming History"; Page 344 of Endnotes

Final Thought:

In my opinion, BOTH Thomas Kelley and the Hess & Eisenhardt measurements are accurate. It's just that each of those figures was calculated in a different manner, utilizing a different starting point on the SS-100-X limousine. That's all.

2008 "JUMP SEAT" DISCUSSION:
JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Dale Myers And The SBT
 

ALSO FROM A 2012 DISCUSSION....

DVP SAID:

As for Shaneyfelt and Specter [et al] deliberately lying about the back-wound location, you're being way too harsh on those men....mainly because we KNOW that some things had to be approximated as far as the SBT trajectory analysis is concerned. And the word "approximately" is used in Shaneyfelt's testimony 24 different times when they get to the subject of the SBT and the 5/24/64 re-enactment in Dealey Plaza. 24 times!

So, many things are only the BEST GUESSES of people like Shaneyfelt and Robert Frazier, et al, when dealing with the subject of the Single-Bullet Theory and the precise positioning of the two victims, etc.

Plus, the Warren Commission's whole SBT scenario was based on an AVERAGE (or approximate) positioning of the limo between a 16-frame range of Zapruder Film frames (Z210-Z225). They merely split the difference and used, in essence, Z217.5 as their SBT frame, which is exactly what we see in Commission Exhibit 903, which is an exhibit that thoroughly demolishes the idea that the Warren Commission needed to move the wound in JFK's upper back into his neck, because it's obvious that the wound on the JFK stand-in is far below the neck. For some reason, however, CTers refuse to acknowledge this fact.

To reiterate an important point:

The Warren Commission didn't lie because they just flat-out had no reason to lie. And that's because Lee Harvey Oswald, by himself, really did kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit. And Oswald's own actions, plus all of the physical evidence he left behind, proves that he was guilty. And that fact was proven many days before there ever was a "Warren Commission", as illustrated in Henry Wade's 11/24/63 news conference.

 

Oh my. Kelley may have made a mistake. But it's a mistake that was repeated by Myers and your hero dozens of times even though they should have known it wasn't true. They didn't say the seat was 6 inches in from the outside of the limo or whatever you're saying. They said Connally's seat was 6 inches inboard of the door. And that's just no true. 

From Chapter 12c:

In Myers' defense ( I can't believe I'm doing this) it's clear he's in a trap. He can't admit his "mistake" without risking all he's worked for. He sold his animation to large entertainment corporations under the assurance it was accurate. He then snowballed this success to become a semi-visible ghost writer for Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History. In the acknowledgments section, in fact, Bugliosi writes "no one helped me as much as Dale Myers, the Emmy Award-winning computer animation specialist...Dale helped me in the writing of several sections of Book One." Included in Book One is Bugliosi's section on the single-bullet theory. Not surprisingly, he (or Myers) condemns conspiracy theorists for assuming that Connally was sitting directly in front of Kennedy by writing "In fact, Connally's jump seat not only was situated a half foot inside and to the left of the right door, but also was three inches lower than the backseat." This assertion has a footnote. As one might guess, it refers back to the inaccurate testimony of Thomas Kelley on June 4, 1964.

Such a mistake would be bad enough, but Bugliosi ended up compounding this mistake during the 2007 promotional tour for his book. In appearance after appearance, from a video interview put online in April 2007 through the many interviews that followed, Bugliosi accused conspiracy theorists of telling an "unbelievable lie" when they depicted Connally sitting directly in front of Kennedy on drawings designed to discredit the single-bullet theory, and then told his audience, over and over, the all-too believable lie that Connally was actually "seated on a jump seat 6 inches in from the door."

By 8-20-07, Bugliosi was still engaging in this embarrassing regurgitation of misinformation. On that day, he echoed his earlier statements and told George Mason University's History News Network:

"If you start with an erroneous premise, everything that follows makes a heck of a lot of sense. The only problem is that it is wrong. There’s no question that Connally was not seated directly in front of Kennedy in the presidential limousine. He was seated to his left front. I have a photograph in Reclaiming History showing exactly where they were seated, and right along side of it I show sketches that they put in conspiracy books, [with Connally] right in front and the bullet is making a right turn and a left turn. But he was seated to [JFK’s] left front in a jump seat a half-foot in so the orientation of Connally’s body vis a vis Kennedy’s was such that a bullet passing on a straight line, through Kennedy, would have no where else to go, except to hit Governor Connally."

Bugliosi died in 2015. One can only wonder then if anyone ever told him his defense of the single-bullet theory was based in large part on the "erroneous premise" the jump seat was 6 inches inboard of the door.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

IN APRIL 2008, PAT SPEER SAID:

His [Dale K. Myers'] animation deceptively depicts an under-sized Connally model on a seat 3.5 inches further from the door than the seat occupied by the flesh and bone Connally, and that, when these mistakes are corrected, the bullet exiting Kennedy's neck strikes Connally in the middle of his back.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as Thomas J. Kelley's "six inch" measurement regarding the jump seat -- even you, Pat, admitted in this 2008 Usenet post that regardless of exactly where that jump seat was located (whether it be 6 inches or 2.5 inches inboard), John Connally would STILL have been hit by any bullet coming out of JFK's throat.

And since there's no other reasonable and rational conclusion to reach other than to conclude that a bullet DID exit JFK's throat, and since we know that Connally was struck in the upper back by only ONE bullet (not two) -- then do the math. It's not too hard.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / DVP vs. Pat Speer

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by David Von Pein