“New evidence” why the SBT is impossible so says the video

[Cliff Varnell]

21 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

This re-construction programme seems based on John Orr's theories of events.

His report pdf can be found here:- http://www.mountainrivercabins.com/JohnOrrReport.pdf

There are various points in John Orr's report paper that I find troubling. Firstly, I treat references to the Z film with caution. I accept that pictures do not lie, however, I have no confidence that the extant film we see today is the camera original. Simply on the documented goings on at NPIC etc.

Mr. Orr follows the WC with LHO firing three shots from the TSBD sixth floor, based on the finding of 3 shells at the supposed sniper's nest. Yet there is solid doubt that one of these shells could not have been fired that day due to it's bent lip and lack of markings that other shells produced when loaded into the MC rifle. All long ago reported by DPUK's Ian Griggs. See his work in 'No Case To Answer'.  I can concur with this report on the various missed shots, which negate the lone nut theories.

With regard to the back wound, we know that the Bethesda autopsy found no path through the body, after probing that wound with a finger, and or the reported use of a sound into the wound. Personally I have always found this strange, so John Orr's alternate theory is somewhat more logical than a hole that went nowhere without any ordinance present.

You find it logical that all the autopsy witnesses to the probing of the T3 back wound got it wrong?

[Pete Mellor]

58 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

You find it logical that all the autopsy witnesses to the probing of the T3 back wound got it wrong?

Certainly not Cliff.  I've always been anti SBT with the back wound producing no through path. Also, like yourself I see the bullet holes in JFK's clothing as being far too low to connect to the neck.  What I was meaning in my post was a FMJ bullet deflecting off rib & neck bone, as per Orr's theory, is somewhat more logical than a back wound just penetrating an inch or two & without any bullet that caused that wound being located.  Not that I accept Mr Orr's proposition, the evidence from the Bethesda witnesses, Humes, Boswell, Fink, Jenkins, Sibert/O'Neill is too strong.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

Certainly not Cliff.  I've always been anti SBT with the back wound producing no through path. Also, like yourself I see the bullet holes in JFK's clothing as being far too low to connect to the neck.  What I was meaning in my post was a FMJ bullet deflecting off rib & neck bone, as per Orr's theory, is somewhat more logical than a back wound just penetrating an inch or two & without any bullet that caused that wound being located.  Not that I accept Mr Orr's proposition, the evidence from the Bethesda witnesses, Humes, Boswell, Fink, Jenkins, Sibert/O'Neill is too strong.

I like the autopsists “general feeling” — JFK was hit with a high tech round.

I like the cervical x-ray which shows a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, which must have resulted from the throat shot.

[Pete Mellor]

3 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I like the autopsists “general feeling” — JFK was hit with a high tech round.

I don't think you are alone...some ice bullet or low charge ordinance.  I'm no expert so I just leave it at a back wound of a couple inches.

6 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I like the cervical x-ray which shows a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, which must have resulted from the throat shot.

A throat wound which wasn't investigated at Bethesda on instructions from the brass in the gallery.  Which is why we have this procrastination today, but you're probably right.

[Chris Davidson]

On 11/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, Chris Davidson said:

I find it more interesting to piece together the WC BS story and then use it against them:

Those pesky boxes.

The man in the gif is placing a pylon at would equate to the limo front at extant z235.

This would put JFK's physical position in the limo 15.1ft back from there.

If you care to look at CE884 entry for z235, it will show you a station # of 396.8

15.1 ft back from 396.8 = 381.7

The WC determined the SBT occurred at station # 381.3 = 4/10ft difference in placement.

Robert Shaw said No No, there was a Connally shot at approx extant z235/236 according to his viewing of the extant zfilm and his experience with bullet trajectories through the body. But, from the west end of the TSBD.

The final WC method was to survey JFK's actual physical location in CE884.

Do you understand how using the limo front and JFK's physical location in the limo would confuse the truth as to not enough time in between for those shots?

PS. The WC also documented a shot that was at approx extant z203.

 

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

I also really wish these computer animations would be used to prove/disprove other locations in DP that are theorized to be sniper positions. All they ever show is the 6th floor window. The tech is ripe to be utilized for something beyond that.

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I also really wish these computer animations would be used to prove/disprove other locations in DP that are theorized to be sniper positions. All they ever show is the 6th floor window. The tech is ripe to be utilized for something beyond that.

 

Ditto.

 

[Bill Fite]

15 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I also really wish these computer animations would be used to prove/disprove other locations in DP that are theorized to be sniper positions. All they ever show is the 6th floor window. The tech is ripe to be utilized for something beyond that.

I'm not sure that they could ever prove a location.

What they could do is show that

• the path from the TSBD window through JFK's back wound was downward 
• the exit wound would have been in his chest if the bullet wasn't deflected
• the exit path would have been upwards and to the left the bullet path was deflected by the transverse process - which would have missed Connally or hit him farther to the left.

So, the exploration of paths could only be used to disprove the SBT unless a path is found that enters JFK's back, exits his throat and the points to Connally.

Other than that some but not all possible locations for Connally's wounds might be eliminated due to JFK or Jackie being in the way.

 

[Chris Davidson]

2 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

which would have missed Connally or hit him farther to the left.

So, the exploration of paths could only be used to disprove the SBT unless a path is found that enters JFK's back, exits his throat and the points to Connally.

 

 

Moving Connally leftward, I believe Knott's Lab was trying to show something like this alignment.

So why not use what the WC provides.

JBC was approx 1" lower in height (WC testimony) sitting in the limo, than JFK was. Use your imagination for the downward path.

Much more faith in Dr. Shaw than the WC.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pamela Brown]

 

[Bill Fite]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:01 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Moving Connally leftward, I believe Knott's Lab was trying to show something like this alignment.

So why not use what the WC provides.

JBC was approx 1" lower in height (WC testimony) sitting in the limo, than JFK was. Use your imagination for the downward path.

Much more faith in Dr. Shaw than the WC.

 

 

 

 

 

I had a thought concerning the idea of moving Connally & possibly JFK.

Originally, it seemed a good approach to use a 3D model would be to go from the wound path back.

Maybe it should go the other way - start at a location then see what has to be moved in the limo for it to work.

Now, if it was me and I had those animation skills I would test the SBT by testing possible locations, TSBD, DalTex, County Records.

For each possible location

1. The height and approximate distance to the limo is known
2. The slope of the street is known
3. The approximate position of the limo is know from the film
4. The horizontal and vertical angles could then be calculated

So then the idea would be to 

* move the virtual JFK & Connally torsos until the horizontal angles matched up

* then move the torso postures up / down & rotated left / right until the wounds matched

I'd guess that they would have to be in some strange, even impossible, positions for some shot sources.  

This could then be used to reject SBT locations and possibly the SBT in demonstrations to interested parties if the torsos have to be moved to improbable locations.

btw:  I don't personally believe the SBT.

[Pat Speer]

30 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

I had a thought concerning the idea of moving Connally & possibly JFK.

Originally, it seemed a good approach to use a 3D model would be to go from the wound path back.

Maybe it should go the other way - start at a location then see what has to be moved in the limo for it to work.

Now, if it was me and I had those animation skills I would test the SBT by testing possible locations, TSBD, DalTex, County Records.

For each possible location

1. The height and approximate distance to the limo is known
2. The slope of the street is known
3. The approximate position of the limo is know from the film
4. The horizontal and vertical angles could then be calculated

So then the idea would be to 

* move the virtual JFK & Connally torsos until the horizontal angles matched up

* then move the torso postures up / down & rotated left / right until the wounds matched

I'd guess that they would have to be in some strange, even impossible, positions for some shot sources.  

This could then be used to reject SBT locations and possibly the SBT in demonstrations to interested parties if the torsos have to be moved to improbable locations.

btw:  I don't personally believe the SBT.

Chapters 12b and 12c of my website discuss the various attempts at showing JFK and JBC were in the proper alignment for the SBT to be true, and how the various TV shows and simulations all reverse-engineered the locations of the men and their wounds to sell what is actually highly unlikely. 

Here's but one demonstration of the b.s.

[Bill Fite]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Chapters 12b and 12c of my website discuss the various attempts at showing JFK and JBC were in the proper alignment for the SBT to be true, and how the various TV shows and simulations all reverse-engineered the locations of the men and their wounds to sell what is actually highly unlikely. 

Here's but one demonstration of the b.s.

Thanks  that's it.

[Cliff Varnell]

On 11/25/2023 at 12:40 PM, Matt Allison said:

I also really wish these computer animations would be used to prove/disprove other locations in DP that are theorized to be sniper positions. All they ever show is the 6th floor window. The tech is ripe to be utilized for something beyond that.

I really wish these computer animations would use the T3 back wound as the point of entry.  But I get it — T3 is obviously too low for the SBT, rendering the entire exercise moot, meaningless.

Can’t have that now, can we?

[Cliff Varnell]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:47 AM, Pete Mellor said:

A throat wound which wasn't investigated at Bethesda on instructions from the brass in the gallery.  Which is why we have this procrastination today, but you're probably right.

Pete, on further review I have to challenge your “probably.”

The head shot(s) was/were too high to account for the damage at T1, the back wound too low.

That leaves the throat shot.