Oswald's Postal Order & Handwriting

[Marcus Fuller]

Being a glutton for punishment I found myself looking at the arguments surrounding the money order Oswald allegedly purchased and sent to Klein's as payment for his rifle. I've seen other examples of Oswald's handwriting and I'm not totally convinced it's exactly the same. Maybe the differences I noticed can be explained by the level of care being used or the speed it was written. I openly admit I'm in no way an expert regarding handwriting comparisons, however I am an artist by trade, so would like to think I have some good attention to detail skills and a half decent ability to be able to replicate what I see.

I'm certain everyone has seen the alleged postal order (CE788) but I thought I'd post it here anyway.

 

While reading one of the threads about money orders, I noticed a comment/question by David Von Pein and it got me thinking. Sorry, I don't know how to quote directly from there so hopefully a link will work. https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22418-the-money-order-wasnt-cashed-theory-debunked/#comment-318293

David wrote:

Quote

And how did Oswald's writing get on the same money order if Oswald himself didn't put it there?

Quite simply, see the below image. 

Now I'm not for a moment suggesting this is in any way a scientific experiment, but if I can make a fairly decent likeness after literally a few minutes of trying, I'm not sure why it could not be done by either someone with far more skills or certainly someone with more time. The small arrows are simply to show myself where I went wrong. I used a drawing pen with a 0.5mm nib and pigment ink on a standard sheet of A4 printer paper. All done freehand. It was then scanned to my pc, saved and posted. The image has not been edited. I'm sure I could get it closer still with a bit more time and care.

[David Von Pein]

Marcus,

That's a pretty decent job at imitating Oswald's writing. Especially your two "Hidell" attempts. I salute you.

So, Marcus, do you think all of the various "Questioned Documents Experts" (i.e., the handwriting experts) who testified in front of the Warren Commission and HSCA were all wrong (or perhaps lying) when several of them testified that the writing on the money order was put there by Lee Harvey Oswald himself?

---------------

Warren Commission Testimony:

Mr. EISENBERG -- Did you compare Exhibit No. 788 with the standards to determine whether Exhibit No. 788 had been written by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN -- Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG -- What was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN -- That the postal money order, Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG -- The postal money order is Commission Exhibit No. 788 and your picture is Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN -- That is correct.

--------------

HSCA Testimony:

Mr. KLEIN -- The document, which is marked F-509, the money order, is an original document; is it not?

Mr. McNALLY -- It was; yes.

Mr. KLEIN -- And your conclusion is they were written by the same person who wrote the other documents?

Mr. McNALLY -- That is right.

--------------

The second picture below is Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, which is a higher-quality version of the Postal Money Order, which shows the money order prior to it being treated for fingerprints (hence, the "Bleed-Thru" mystery of CE788 is explained):

 

Mr. EISENBERG -- Are the photographs which you produced photographs of the items before they were treated for fingerprints or after?

Mr. CADIGAN -- Yes; before they were treated for fingerprints. In other words, it is regular customary practice to photograph an exhibit before it is treated for latents for exactly this reason, that in the course of the treatment there may be some loss of detail, either total or partial.

------------------------

Also See:

DVP's JFK Archives / Archived Discussions Regarding The "Hidell" Money Order

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Marcus Fuller]

6 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

That's a pretty decent job at imitating Oswald's writing, Marcus. Especially the "Hidell" attempt. I salute you.

So, Marcus, do you think all the various "Questioned Documents Experts" (i.e., the handwriting experts) who testified in front of the WC and HSCA were all wrong (or perhaps lying) when several of them testified that the writing on the money order was put there by Lee Harvey Oswald himself?

No I don't think they were lying as such. But I also don't think that they prove it was Oswald either. For starters there is a huge difference between handwriting experts and Graphologists, and I have no idea what Cadigan was. That would affect the outcome. Handwriting experts are usually peer reviewed as they get someone else to check their findings. Either way both will usually stipulate that they will only work with originals as they need to see details in the originals that you cannot get from copies, such as pen pressure and other very fine details like the direction of pen stroke. They're often lost with copying. I only scanned the image above into my PC and I can see it looks more blotted than in person.  Otherwise it's just an informed opinion on their part, which they will usually make clear.

There are issues with the first comparison. Namely the fact that Cadigan was given examples of writing written by the guy who was said to have killed JFK and Tippit. As far as I'm aware that wouldn't usually happen for obvious reasons. They would be given a selection of excerpts with no idea as to who had written it to avoid bias, and then asked to make comparisons. If the source is considered to be fake (a simulation) they won't try and ID who wrote it because it won't have the same features as the source. It's not that I don't trust the testimony of Cadigan, but that I don't trust the WC.

As far as the second one goes it's essentially the same thing. Now I don't know whether the same exhibits were used in both 'investigations' (a term I use very loosely). But I would say that my quick knock up looks closer to the postal order than the postal order looks to the HSCA exhibits.

If the postal order and order form etc were known to be legit the testimony of those involved would carry far more weight. But they all need to be legit. If one is fake, the handwriting study also fails. 

 

[Tony Krome]

6 hours ago, Marcus Fuller said:

Now I'm not for a moment suggesting this is in any way a scientific experiment, but if I can make a fairly decent likeness after literally a few minutes of trying, I'm not sure why it could not be done by either someone with far more skills or certainly someone with more time.

Great job! Unfortunately, unless you have a photograph of someone other than Oswald filling out that form, you won't convince DVP. Dave can be seen in the Basement footage, he's the shot-gun toting back-up guy behind Ruby.

[Richard Booth]

1 hour ago, Marcus Fuller said:

I have no idea what Cadigan was

Just an FBI agent. He had no formal education regarding documents -- per his testimony, he received "on the job" training. 

Surely he had seen many, many types of documents and probably learned a thing or two about bogus documents though.

Good job on mimicking Oswald's penmanship.

[David Von Pein]

From 2015.....

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Davey has so much rubber on his face from trying so many angles to get around this orphan money order that he looks like Jason from Friday the 13th.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

And so, Jim, let's see if you (or your hero, John Armstrong) can defeat by FAR the biggest VICTORY for the "Money Order Is Legit" side in this whole discussion --- the File Locator Number, which is a number we KNOW (via Lance Payette's excellent work) is only stamped on a check or money order AFTER it reaches the Federal Reserve Bank.

Good luck proving the FLN seen on Oswald's M.O. is a forgery, Jimmy. Not to mention the other THREE things that pretty much prove that CTers are dead wrong about the M.O. being fraudulent --- (1) Oswald's own writing on the subject M.O.; (2) the Klein's stamp on that same document; and (3) the fact that the money order was found on 11/23/63 in just exactly the place where you'd expect to find it if it had gone through the proper banking channels--the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia.

Have fun proving ALL of that stuff was part of a "Let's Frame Oswald" plot, Jim.

[...]

DVP ALSO SAID:

Let's review....

>> Oswald's writing is on the Hidell money order (per multiple handwriting analysts---all of whom were total boobs or incompetents or L-words, per people like DiEugenio).

>> Klein's stamp is on the back of the M.O.

>> A File Locator Number is on the M.O. (which is ONLY put there AFTER the M.O. has gone to the FRB).

>> The M.O. is found just where it should be found (per CD75) on 11/23/63---the Federal Records Center in Alexandria/Washington.

>> The "bleed thru" issue is now a total NON-issue, as proven by Tim Brennan (via his pointing out the "No Bleed-Thru" status that exists in the M.O. as seen in Cadigan Exhibit No. 11.)

But all of the above is FAKE/FRAUDULENT, per many CTers.

You're fighting a losing battle, CTers. The money order was handled by Lee Harvey Oswald, Klein's Sporting Goods, and the Federal Reserve Bank. Maybe it's time for conspiracy theorists to accept that fact.


ALBERT DOYLE SAID:

Even if the Money Order turns out to be processed with Oswald's handwriting on it, the situation involves 2 Oswalds being worked as a team. One Oswald could have been used to set-up the other and the rifle could still be worked around the Oswald who was being set-up.

I don't think Von Pein realizes how easy the Money Order evidence could fit this scenario. Von Pein doesn't understand (or pretends not to) that the Money Order could have been sent but sent in a way where it was covertly worked around the normal flagging triggers in the system.

Everything Oswald did was Intel-guided after he came back from Russia.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

In other words --- If one stupid, unproven conspiracy theory falls flat on its face, CTers will merely insert another stupid conspiracy theory to take its place.

Nice policy!

[...]

ALBERT DOYLE SAID:

Do you understand that the Money Order could be processed, or partly processed, and still be 'handled' through the system in order to frame Oswald?

In other words, it could have a legitimate File Locator stamp and still be planted on Oswald in order to frame him.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I love that constant moving of the goalposts by CTers.

Since it couldn't be more obvious that the Hidell money order now has a proper path to legitimacy (and conspiracy theorists like Albert Doyle know it), we're now treated to more sheer crackpot speculation about how the LEGITIMATE money order (with Oswald's writing on it that was bought and handled by Oswald HIMSELF) was being used to frame Oswald anyway.

The CTer mind is a spinning whirlwind of ever-expanding and forever changing concocted claptrap.

IOW --- Whatever it takes to pretend Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy on 11/22/63, an Internet CTer is ready and eager to do it -- even if the number of goalposts that must be moved reaches triple digits.
 

Edited December 4, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

10 hours ago, Marcus Fuller said:

No I don't think they were lying as such. But I also don't think that they prove it was Oswald either. For starters there is a huge difference between handwriting experts and Graphologists, and I have no idea what Cadigan was. That would affect the outcome. Handwriting experts are usually peer reviewed as they get someone else to check their findings. Either way both will usually stipulate that they will only work with originals as they need to see details in the originals that you cannot get from copies, such as pen pressure and other very fine details like the direction of pen stroke. They're often lost with copying. I only scanned the image above into my PC and I can see it looks more blotted than in person.  Otherwise it's just an informed opinion on their part, which they will usually make clear.

There are issues with the first comparison. Namely the fact that Cadigan was given examples of writing written by the guy who was said to have killed JFK and Tippit. As far as I'm aware that wouldn't usually happen for obvious reasons. They would be given a selection of excerpts with no idea as to who had written it to avoid bias, and then asked to make comparisons. If the source is considered to be fake (a simulation) they won't try and ID who wrote it because it won't have the same features as the source. It's not that I don't trust the testimony of Cadigan, but that I don't trust the WC.

As far as the second one goes it's essentially the same thing. Now I don't know whether the same exhibits were used in both 'investigations' (a term I use very loosely). But I would say that my quick knock up looks closer to the postal order than the postal order looks to the HSCA exhibits.

If the postal order and order form etc were known to be legit the testimony of those involved would carry far more weight. But they all need to be legit. If one is fake, the handwriting study also fails. 

 

Neither Cadigan nor Alwyn Cole gave any testimony whatsoever on the Hidell signature on the money order. They didn’t even mention it. Both men testified in excruciating letter-by-letter detail on questioned documents, including the money order, but they completely forgot to mention perhaps the most important signature in the entire case?

Not a chance in hell. @Steve Thomas has put together a compelling case that the money order was signed by Marina, and I think he nailed it. 

[Marcus Fuller]

9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Great job! Unfortunately, unless you have a photograph of someone other than Oswald filling out that form, you won't convince DVP. Dave can be seen in the Basement footage, he's the shot-gun toting back-up guy behind Ruby.

Ahhhh one of those guys. Nothing like a spot of self-flagellation when you accidentally check out the 'Rush to Judgement' cover in the bookshop lol

[Marcus Fuller]

38 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Neither Cadigan nor Alwyn Cole gave any testimony whatsoever on the Hidell signature on the money order. They didn’t even mention it. Both men testified in excruciating letter-by-letter detail on questioned documents, including the money order, but they completely forgot to mention perhaps the most important signature in the entire case?

Not a chance in hell. @Steve Thomas has put together a compelling case that the money order was signed by Marina, and I think he nailed it. 

Thanks Tom, I'll check it out. 

[Marcus Fuller]

8 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

Just an FBI agent. He had no formal education regarding documents -- per his testimony, he received "on the job" training. 

Surely he had seen many, many types of documents and probably learned a thing or two about bogus documents though.

Good job on mimicking Oswald's penmanship.

Cheers Richard. Now I know that it might save me some time in the future. Something else to look at haha

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/4/2023 at 6:13 AM, Tom Gram said:

@Steve Thomas has put together a compelling case that the money order was signed by Marina, and I think he nailed it.

 

Except that Steve's argument -- as far as the rifle purchase goes -- assumes that Oswald actually purchased the rifle. Steve readily admits that to be an assumption.

Many researchers, including myself, think that Oswald had nothing to do with that rifle.

 

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Except that Steve's argument -- as far as the rifle purchase goes -- assumes that Oswald actually purchased the rifle. Steve readily admits that to be an assumption.

Many researchers, including myself, think that Oswald had nothing to do with that rifle.

 

Sandy,

I was mostly concerned with the signature. That's really what links the rifle to Oswald. A guy named Scott testified to the HSCA said that the "fill-ins" on the Postal money order were in Oswald's handwriting, but he didn't address the signature.

As I sit here, I can't think of any time when Oswald actually signed the name Hidell to anything.

Steve Thomas 

[Sandy Larsen]

23 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Sandy,

I was mostly concerned with the signature. That's really what links the rifle to Oswald. A guy named Scott testified to the HSCA said that the "fill-ins" on the Postal money order were in Oswald's handwriting, but he didn't address the signature.

As I sit here, I can't think of any time when Oswald actually signed the name Hidell to anything.

Steve Thomas 

 

 Steve,

Tom Gram said that you made a strong case for it being Marina who signed the postal money order for the rifle. His statement makes it sound like you believe that. (Which is fine.)

If Marina signed the PMO, then she likely did so for Oswald. So Tom's statement makes it sound like you believe Oswald bought the Carcano. (Which is fine.)

While it is interesting that Scott had nothing to say about the signature, he still did say that the PMO was filled in by Oswald. (Or at least it appeared to him to be Oswald's handwriting.)

Many of us believe that the PMO was filled out by somebody who is pretty good at copying other people's handwriting. (Which, actually, isn't a great feat given how Oswald's handwriting often doesn't even match his own handwriting.)

So do you believe that Oswald filled out the PMO and had Marina sign it with Hidell?

 

[Ron Bulman]

Didn't David Josephs do some important work on this?  I thought pretty much proving Oswald didn't order the gun(s). 

[David Von Pein]

......

Edited December 6, 2023 by David Von Pein