Oswald's Postal Order & Handwriting

[Sandy Larsen]

30 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Didn't David Josephs do some important work on this?  I thought pretty much proving Oswald didn't order the gun(s). 

 

He put a lot of work into it.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/the-klein-s-rifle

 

[David Von Pein]

.......

Edited December 6, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 Steve,

Tom Gram said that you made a strong case for it being Marina who signed the postal money order for the rifle. His statement makes it sound like you believe that. (Which is fine.)

If Marina signed the PMO, then she likely did so for Oswald. So Tom's statement makes it sound like you believe Oswald bought the Carcano. (Which is fine.)

So do you believe that Oswald filled out the PMO and had Marina sign it with Hidell?

 

Sandy,

I honestly don't know.

The whole thing is just so suspicious, and that's what gets my Spidey senses tingling.

Steve Thomas

[David Von Pein]

Steve and Sandy,

I'm confused now....

I had thought that you (Steve Thomas) were saying that you thought that ONLY the "Hidell" signature on LHO's phony Selective Service card had been written by Marina. But in your last reply to Sandy, you seem to be saying that you think perhaps Marina also wrote the words "A. Hidell" on the Postal Money Order as well. Is that correct?

Also, Steve, when you said this earlier today....

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

A guy named Scott testified to the HSCA that the "fill-ins" on the Postal money order were in Oswald's handwriting, but he didn't address the signature.

....were you referring to the "A. Hidell" signature on the money order itself? Or some other "signature" (such as the one on the Selective Service card)?

If you were referring to the signature on the money order, then you would certainly be incorrect, because handwriting expert Charles C. Scott definitely DID say that the "A. Hidell" we find on the money order was (in his opinion) written by Lee Oswald (see 8 HSCA 246 and the image below, which is from that page).

Scott said that ALL of the "fill-ins" on the money order were in Oswald's writing----and that would, of course, include the "A. Hidell" handwriting.

Edited December 6, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Sandy,

I was mostly concerned with the signature. That's really what links the rifle to Oswald. A guy named Scott testified to the HSCA said that the "fill-ins" on the Postal money order were in Oswald's handwriting, but he didn't address the signature.

As I sit here, I can't think of any time when Oswald actually signed the name Hidell to anything.

Steve Thomas 

Scott is also the only HSCA expert who claimed that he examined the original money order. The other two guys said they only examined a copy. 

The official description of the money order in the HSCA handwriting report also says “fill-ins” though, and mentions the Hidell signature as one of the fill-ins: 

29. March 12, 1963. U.S. postal money order No. bearing handwritten fill-ins as follows: Klein's Sporting Goods, A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915. Dallas, Tex. Blue ink, ballpoint pen. Location: Archives. (CE 788; JFK exhibit F-509A and 509B.)

If this same description was provided to Scott, I think his statement can be considered an ID - but it is still more than a little odd that the Hidell signature was not addressed directly, by anyone, ever. 

Cadigan and Cole didn’t mention the Hidell signature at all. Cole said he based his conclusion on the words “Klein’s” and “Texas” and Cadigan the words “Dallas, Texas”, “Sporting”, and “P.O. Box 2915”. This, IMO, is not just weird. It’s suspicious as hell.

Minutes if not seconds earlier in both of their testimonies, Cadigan and Cole had testified in excruciating, letter-by-letter detail on the A. Hidell “signature” on the Klein’s order form - a microfilm copy - and compared it to the known Oswald handwriting standards. We’re supposed to believe that both men independently failed to mention the same exact ”A. Hidell” signature on the original money order? No freaking way.

If the money order Hidell signature was identifiable as Oswald’s handwriting, Cadigan and Cole would’ve said so under oath. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Tom Gram

[David Von Pein]

2 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Scott is also the only HSCA expert who claimed that he examined the original money order. The other two guys said they only examined a copy. 

That's incorrect, Tom.

Joseph McNally, in his HSCA testimony, said he had examined the original money order:

------------

MR. KLEIN -- "The document, which is marked F-509, the money order, is an original document; is it not?"

MR. McNALLY -- "It was; yes."

MR. KLEIN -- "And your conclusion is they were written by the same person who wrote the other documents?"

MR. McNALLY -- "That is right."

 

[Tom Gram]

Just now, David Von Pein said:

That's incorrect, Tom.

Joseph McNally, in his HSCA testimony, said he had examined the original money order:

------------

MR. KLEIN -- "The document, which is marked F-509, the money order, is an original document; is it not?"

MR. McNALLY -- "It was; yes."

MR. KLEIN -- "And your conclusion is they were written by the same person who wrote the other documents?"

MR. McNALLY -- "That is right."

 

Interesting - he said Xerox copy in the handwriting report: 

II. The script writing on the following documents was done by the same person: 17. Citizenship revocation. 19. Stationery of Holland-American Line. 20. Self-questionnaire. 21. Photocopy of self-questionnaire. 22. Support affidavit. 25. Letter to "The Worker". 29. Xerox of Klein's money order. 30. Letter to "Fair Play for Cuba". 38. Letter to "Communist Party U.S.A.". 42. Letter to the Russian Embassy. 48. Photomechanical copy of letter to Russian Embassy. (36)

Purtell also identified item 29 as a copy: 

Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes.

It sounds like he may have been talking about the order form, but it seems a bit odd that they’d both make the same error. 

[David Von Pein]

19 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes.

It sounds like he may have been talking about the order form, but it seems a bit odd that they’d both make the same error. 

Here's a discussion from 8 years ago about this "Xerox" topic:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1065.html

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:21 PM, Marcus Fuller said:

Being a glutton for punishment I found myself looking at the arguments surrounding the money order Oswald allegedly purchased and sent to Klein's as payment for his rifle. I've seen other examples of Oswald's handwriting and I'm not totally convinced it's exactly the same. Maybe the differences I noticed can be explained by the level of care being used or the speed it was written. I openly admit I'm in no way an expert regarding handwriting comparisons, however I am an artist by trade, so would like to think I have some good attention to detail skills and a half decent ability to be able to replicate what I see.

I'm certain everyone has seen the alleged postal order (CE788) but I thought I'd post it here anyway.

 

While reading one of the threads about money orders, I noticed a comment/question by David Von Pein and it got me thinking. Sorry, I don't know how to quote directly from there so hopefully a link will work. https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22418-the-money-order-wasnt-cashed-theory-debunked/#comment-318293

David wrote:

Quite simply, see the below image. 

Now I'm not for a moment suggesting this is in any way a scientific experiment, but if I can make a fairly decent likeness after literally a few minutes of trying, I'm not sure why it could not be done by either someone with far more skills or certainly someone with more time. The small arrows are simply to show myself where I went wrong. I used a drawing pen with a 0.5mm nib and pigment ink on a standard sheet of A4 printer paper. All done freehand. It was then scanned to my pc, saved and posted. The image has not been edited. I'm sure I could get it closer still with a bit more time and care.

They look very good, I even notice you changed the pressure applied to the pen here and there, in fluent writing the pressure varies making thickening the lines or the opposite.  Now, that is using old style pens.  Most people start with a thick line and end narrow, but it can be different (and there are pauzes in the middel of a long word, etc).  Some time ago I read a French book on handwriting, it stated some persons can have a number of styles, it can change when the person is in a hurry, or when there is little space, an official letter or a letter to a friend. The trick is to find the specifics in each of those styles.

A very interesting one is the mysterie package (adressed to Oswald Nassau St etc)

FAIK Oswald seemed to have 2 ditinct styles, and we know (?) Marina signed some stuff for him (well... she stated she had written Hidell sometimes).  Marina has a whole range of writing styles, that doesn't help...

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Steve Thomas]

Hidell Oswald signatures.

On the top is the Selective Service card.

On the bottom is the rifle Postal Service Money Order.

 

Steve Thomas

[Greg Doudna]

11 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Hidell Oswald signatures.

On the top is the Selective Service card.

On the bottom is the rifle Postal Service Money Order.

Steve Thomas

These two Hidell signatures, Selective Service card (top) and the Klein’s rifle postal money order (bottom) visibly do not look written by the same person, nor did any handwriting expert claim they were.

Therefore: top, Selective Service card Hidell, written by Marina, who admitted she wrote the Hidell signature on some items?

Bottom, postal money order, written by Lee Oswald (all writing incl Hidell signature on that money order written by Lee Oswald testified by handwriting expert Charles C Scott)?

CORRECTION: they do appear to be by the same hand, Oswald's for both

Edited December 7, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

These two Hidell signatures, Selective Service card (top) and the Klein’s rifle postal money order (bottom) visibly do not look written by the same person, nor did any handwriting expert claim they were.

Greg,

I am not a handwriting expert, but in my amateur opinion, they are written by the same person.

I say this for three reasons:

1) The way the two sides of the letter H do not touch,

2) The way the letter H flows into the letter I. This is very unusuaI. and consistent in both signaturs

3) The offset dot above the letter i. Again, this is consistent in both.

In my amateur opinion.

Steve Thomas

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Bottom, postal money order, written by Lee Oswald (all writing incl Hidell signature on that money order written by Lee Oswald testified by handwriting expert Cole)?

Alwyn Cole did not testify that Oswald wrote the Hidell signature. He didn’t even mention it. 

Same deal with Cadigan. It’s always possible that I missed something, but if you find a reference to the Hidell signature by either of these guys I’d sure like to see it. 

I’d also think it’s worth quoting you on this topic: 

I couldn't believe my eyes! That Hidell money order of March 12 for $21.45 purchased from the downtown Post Office at 10:30 am to pay Klein's in Chicago for the rifle which has always been cited as impossible to have been bought by Oswald since he was at work at Jaggers starting at 8 a.m. that morning . . . the handwriting on that money order is Marina's handwriting--Marina bought that money order! The problem of logistics of Lee buying it is gone. 

-Greg Doudna 

You did a complete 180 and deleted that comment the second I pointed out that Marina was was Ruth Paine on March 12th, the day the money order was mailed. Paine also testified that they were together in the mid-morning. 

Paine couldn’t keep straight what happened on the 12th vs. the 20th in her testimony. The 12th was the first day Paine visited Marina…is the idea that Paine could have innocently assisted Marina with a few errands that day, including a trip to the Post Office to drop off an anonymous letter that Paine didn’t even know about so intolerable to you that it would make you completely change your mind and go on the offensive that quickly? 

Your bias toward Paine is a little over the top sometimes, and this was one of those times. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Miles Massicotte]

From the peanut gallery over here, those signatures look the same to me, I agree with Steve Thomas. 

[James DiEugenio]

Tom Gram is becoming a valuable poster here.

he sure has his names and dates straight concerning the post office imbrogio.