Finish The Sentence, Re: Tippit:

[Tom Gram]

22 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

But Markham said Tippit rolled the window down.  You're basically admitting she was simply making an assumption.  She did the same when she said Oswald put his hands/arms on the passenger door.

 

Uhh…or she saw Tippit lean over and open the vent.

[Sean Coleman]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:57 PM, Tom Gram said:

Uhh…or she saw Tippit lean over and open the vent.

 

Edited March 19 by Sean Coleman

[Bill Brown]

14 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Uhh…or she saw Tippit lean over and open the vent.

 

Exactly.  Bingo!

You're finally getting it.

Markham saw a movement from Tippit which, because of her position in relation to the patrol car and Tippit, she assumed he did one thing when the reality is he did another.

Same with the killer putting his hands/arms on the car.  Markham saw a movement from the killer which, because of her position in relation to the patrol car and the killer, she assumed he did one thing when the reality is he did another.

Oswald simply had his hands in his jacket pockets (per Jack Tatum, who had a much better look than Markham ever did), walked over to the passenger side of the car and leaned forward to speak through the vent window.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

So, Tippit was speaking through the vent and looking out the window, at Oswald.  An interesting and unusual investigative procedure.  An Oak Cliff native's perspective on looking out the window, maybe more valuable than yours.

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Markham saw a movement from Tippit which, because of her position in relation to the patrol car and Tippit, she assumed he did one thing when the reality is he did another.

Just to be accurate, it is not clear that Helen Markham claimed or thought she had actually SEEN Tippit roll down the window. She claimed that Tippit had done so but said she thought Tippit must have done so on the basis of reasoning—he must have because she saw the killer talking to Tippit through that window. In fact the killer was speaking through the open vent window with the main window rolled up. 

By contrast, she did claim to have SEEN the killer with his arms up and hands clasped and on the patrol car as he leaned in to talk there. 

She claimed to have seen that within minutes to officers who responded to the scene, and never wavered on that claim. She was filmed on WFAA-TV at 1:35 pm telling and gesturing to officers what she had seen of that. 

I am amazed at your claim, not simply phrased as a conjectured possibility, but of possession of actual knowledge as if you know, that Helen Markham did not see what she said she saw, even though fingerprints were found in agreement with what Helen Markham said she saw:

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Markham saw a movement from the killer which, because of her position in relation to the patrol car and the killer, she assumed he did one thing when the reality is he did another.

Oswald simply had his hands in his jacket pockets (per Jack Tatum, who had a much better look than Markham ever did), walked over to the passenger side of the car and leaned forward to speak through the vent window.

Such certainty in expressing your claim to knowledge of the opposite of what Helen Markham said she saw on that point, Bill! 

What is your reason for certainty of that negative? 

Isn’t it true your reason is because you believe on other grounds that Oswald was the killer, and therefore (by reasoning) you have concluded it is certain he did not leave the fingerprints which since 1998 are known not to have been left by Oswald? 

It’s no crime to say so if that is your reason.

Or is it something else? Would you say your basis for your certainty? 

[Bill Brown]

 

All I'm trying to say here is that Markham thought the window was down.  She said she knows it was down.  She was wrong about this.  Therefore, why can't she also be wrong about the killer actually placing his arms on the car?

From her position, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the window was down and that the killer made contact with the car.  She was wrong about one.  Why can't she be wrong about both?

 

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

By contrast, she did claim to have SEEN the killer with his arms up and hands clasped and on the patrol car as he leaned in to talk there. 

She claimed to have seen that within minutes to officers who responded to the scene, and never wavered on that claim. She was filmed on WFAA-TV at 1:35 pm telling and gesturing to officers what she had seen of that. 

I am amazed at your claim, not simply phrased as a conjectured possibility, but of possession of actual knowledge as if you know, that Helen Markham did not see what she said she saw, even though fingerprints were found in agreement with what Helen Markham said she saw:

This.

Bill is also trying to use Tatum’s 15-year belated statements as proof the killer had his hands in his pockets the whole time. That’s getting into denial territory. 

Markham said she saw the killer lean down and touch the car door for a few seconds that same day. That was her core observation, and it never changed. She did NOT mention the window being down in her affidavit. 

Markham’s assumption about a transparent window being down has zero bearing on what she actually saw. Nobody leans down and tries to have a conversation through a closed window - but it makes perfect sense with the open vent. 

Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window. 
Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge? 
Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down. 
Mr. BALL. It was? 
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge? 
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window. 

…

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his hands on the window-- 
Mr. DULLES. The window was open? 
Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this. 
Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or where the driver was? 
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car. 
Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes. 
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, stepped back two steps. 

Here she’s basically admitting she’s making an assumption about the window, but NOT about the killer touching the car. 

Also where did Markham claim that she actually saw Tippit roll down the window? 

[David Von Pein]

FYI / FWIW.....

Linked below is my copy of Helen Markham's 1964 interview with CBS News. It's a little longer than the other version posted in this thread.

What I find interesting in this video is the part where Markham actually claims that she herself used the radio in Tippit's patrol car. There's a snippet in the interview (right after the DPD radio call excerpt is played) when Markham says "And they heard me". Which implies, of course, that she herself had called in the shooting on Tippit's car radio.

There is, of course, nothing in the Dallas Police transcripts or the DPD audio recordings that would indicate that Mrs. Markham ever talked to the DPD over the police radio. (Unless we're to believe that Markham had the same trouble Domingo Benavides had when attempting to operate Tippit's car radio, and that she just simply could not get through to the dispatcher, but she thought she had.)

Edited January 12 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

FYI / FWIW.....

Linked below is my copy of Helen Markham's 1964 interview with CBS News. It's a little longer than the other version posted in this thread.

What I find interesting in this video is the part where Markham actually claims that she herself used the radio in Tippit's patrol car. There's a snippet in the interview (right after the DPD radio call excerpt is played) when Markham says "And they heard me". Which implies, of course, that she herself had called in the shooting on Tippit's car radio.

There is, of course, nothing in the Dallas Police transcripts or the DPD audio recordings that would indicate that Mrs. Markham ever talked to the DPD over the police radio. (Unless we're to believe that Markham had the same trouble Domingo Benavides had when attempting to operate Tippit's car radio, and that she just simply could not get through to the dispatcher, but she thought she had.)

Thanks David for this fuller form of the CBS interview, appreciated.

I have listened to that radio call with Bowley at the mike after Benavides' attempt, and I remember hearing a couple of voices in the background, who must have been standing right next to Bowley, including what sounded to me like a woman's voice. I have wondered if that was Helen Markham. In which case that would be true, "they heard me". 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I have listened to that radio call with Bowley at the mike after Benavides' attempt, and I remember hearing a couple of voices in the background, who must have been standing right next to Bowley, including what sounded to me like a woman's voice. I have wondered if that was Helen Markham. In which case that would be true, "they heard me". 

Oh come now. The woman's voice in the background (which I too have heard) is indeed there on the tape, and it might indeed be Markham speaking. But she's certainly not in the car speaking right into the radio microphone. She's merely being overheard in the background while Bowley controls the mike. So why, under those conditions, would Markham assume "They heard ME" ? That's ridiculous. She wasn't using the radio, Bowley was.

 

Edited January 12 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

44 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Oh come now. The woman's voice in the background (which I too have heard) is indeed there on the tape, and it might indeed be Markham speaking. But she's certainly not in the car speaking right into the radio microphone. She's merely being overheard in the background while Bowley controls the mike. So why, under those conditions, would Markham assume "They heard ME" ? That's ridiculous. She wasn't using the radio, Bowley was.

Well i agree Bowley was on the radio, am not disputing that.

[Marcus Fuller]

Is it possible that another officer closed the window? Maybe to prevent spectators from reaching in or something? Either way there does seem to be a decent area at the top of the door where a person could lean without the window needing to be open.