Rob Reiner talks about two Oswalds

[Nick Bartetzko]

10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There are two more researchers I forgot to mention who have endorsed John’s Harvey and Lee.  One is Dick Russell (author of The Man Who Knew Too Much), who actually organized the meeting and drove John and me to Rob Reiner’s house.

The other researcher was Jack White, who worked with John in the 1990s and produced, based in part on John’s early research, the 1993 poster titled “The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald.”  (See below.)

So, here is the list I’ve compiled so far of 15 researchers who have publicly endorsed a long-term two-Oswald analysis:

John Armstrong, Rob Reiner, James Norwood, Sandy Larsen, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, Joseph McBride, Dick Russell, Jack White, Pat Shannan, George Schwimmer, David Mantik, David Josephs,  Robert Groden & me.

And here is the best photo I’ve been able to make of “The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald” poster.  If you enlarge the graphic sufficiently, you should be able to read the captions under each mug shot.

 

I’ve never been able to reconcile the picture(s) of Lee in Robert Oswald’s book…which I’ve not read and don’t have either. There are so many conflicts that have to be explained away to say it’s only one individual that I’m inclined to believe there were two Oswald’s, at least for a while. 

The concept of having two individuals sharing one identity being used by certain agencies back in those days in quite believable to me. Are you aware of actual proof of sets of individuals that have either come out and admitted being part of such programs or that researchers were able to uncover? I mean hard proof like birth certificates, mother and father details, photos from school days etc.? 

[Michael Crane]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:56 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Sorry to digress.  This takes me back to 8th or 9th grade English class.  A contemporary subjects assignment.  Watch Archie Bunker, write a report, be ready to comment.  I don't remember what I wrote or said.  Maybe, why does he call Gloria's husband meathead?

 

 

Archie called Michael Meathead because he thought that he was dead from the neck up.

[Michael Crane]

12 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Even without zooming in, I could tell #26 was airbrushed to hell and back.

Mercy

 

[David Von Pein]

12 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Even without zooming in, I could tell #26 was airbrushed to hell and back.

 

 

Edited January 25 by David Von Pein

[Jim Hargrove]

The alteration of the 1959 so-called "defection" photo shows the techniques that were used so long ago.

John A. has analyzed the process  HERE. John believes that the original photo was probably taken by George "Hans" Wilkens in Japan.

Then, a better version of the photo was retouched to eliminate the background.

Finally, the face was altered to make it unrecognizable.

 

Why was this done?  The photo appeared, among other places, in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.  The photo was of American-born Lee Oswald.  But there were people in the Dallas/Fort Worth area who knew Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald, and they might notice that the picture of Lee did not match their perception of Harvey.  Therefore, the whole image needed to be muddied up.

Years later, John Armstrong asked AP/World Wide Photos for the best available image of this photo.  He was able to purchase it directly from them.

Pretty unrecognizable, eh?  Exactly the point!

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

I’ve never been able to reconcile the picture(s) of Lee in Robert Oswald’s book…which I’ve not read and don’t have either. There are so many conflicts that have to be explained away to say it’s only one individual that I’m inclined to believe there were two Oswald’s, at least for a while. 

The concept of having two individuals sharing one identity being used by certain agencies back in those days in quite believable to me. Are you aware of actual proof of sets of individuals that have either come out and admitted being part of such programs or that researchers were able to uncover? I mean hard proof like birth certificates, mother and father details, photos from school days etc.? 

Nick,

Our bet is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was a WWII war orphan brought to the United States by a program such as OSS lawyer Frank Wisner’s operation which brought thousands of European refugees to the U.S.  If that suspicion is correct, Harvey Oswald would not have had an American birth certificate.  Only Lee would.

As Rob Reiner recently told Len Osanic, “it’s well known that in a lot of these operations they use doubles a lot of the time, and that’s part of the obfuscation and the wilderness of mirrors….”

I made a post a couple of days ago showing how numerous spies assumed the identity of others for a protracted period of time.  CLICK HERE to see it.
 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Our bet is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was a WWII war orphan brought to the United States by a program such as OSS lawyer Frank Wisner’s operation which brought thousands of European refugees to the U.S.

 

@Nick Bartetzko

Jim doesn't  just pull this orphan idea out of thin air. I don't recall the details, but a woman from NYC or NJ area (IIRC) called someone related to Oswald after the assassination and said that she had known Oswald years earlier as a boy living with a man in her area who was supposedly his uncle. I probably mangled the story, but when I read it it sure did seem like the boy could have been an orphan living with a guy who was willing to take care of him. And the timing is right with WWII.

This story by itself isn't very good evidence of anything. But when taken into consideration along with the other, great evidence, it fills an empty spot and makes a lot of sense of the whole thing.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:25 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

This story by itself isn't very good evidence of anything. But when taken into consideration along with the other, great evidence, it fills an empty spot and makes a lot of sense of the whole thing.

It does absolutely nothing of the kind. Per Tracy Parnell:

Armstrong uses a phone call from an unidentified woman to Mrs. Jack Tippit of Westport, Connecticut as the basis for several otherwise uncorroborated claims. The caller said she knew Oswald's father and uncle and they were Hungarian communists. Armstrong states, "If this information is correct, one of the two Oswald's lived in New York in his youth. This could explain Oswald's interest in communism (from his father and uncle), which began as a teenager and continued throughout his life." Armstrong adds, "She gave two names-Louis Weinstock and Emile Kardos."

Armstrong makes another slip when he says that the unidentified caller gave the name Louis Weinstock. The caller gave only the last name Weinstock and Armstrong has filled in the blank with a first name helpful to his theory. Louis Weinstock was, of course, the General Manager of  "The Worker", the left-wing publication that Oswald read. Weinstock had also corresponded with Oswald on at least one occasion to thank him for his offer to make posters for the publication. To be fair, the caller did say "Weinstock, the editor of Woman's World". If the caller said "The Worker" and the Mr. And Mrs. Tippit heard it as "Woman's World" then Armstrong is justified in adding "Louis" to "Weinstock". But Armstrong leaves the reader with the impression that the caller said "Louis Weinstock" which isn't the case.

The FBI document adds, "The woman then began speaking indistinctly, disjointedly and nervously." The woman's nervousness could have resulted from the fact that she was making a crank call. Another possibility is that if the caller was referring to Louis Weinstock the call was an effort to embarrass him by associating him with Oswald.

Edited January 26 by Jonathan Cohen

[Jim Hargrove]

Let's look at what the document ACTUALLY said, and what John A. said about it.  Despite all the confusion in the previous post, note that the FBI teletype indicated that Mrs. Tippit said her husband "WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER TIPPIT."  

The following FBI document, an internal teletype from 11/30/63, was withheld from public view for three decades.

URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB
TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK
FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/
NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON
LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS - R
ON NOV. THIRTY INSTANT, JACK D. TIPPIT, SELF EMPLOYED
CARTOONIST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES AND WIFE, ONE SIX FOUR
NEW TOWN TURNPIKE, WESTPORT, CONN., ADVISED AS FOLLOWS. AT
APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT
RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN WHO ASKED IF
MR. TIPPIT WAS A POLICEMAN AND IF HE WAS RELATED TO THE POLICE-
MAN TIPPIT WHO WAS SHOT IN DALLAS. MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER
HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER
TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER. ON ANOTHER EXTENSION
JACK TIPPIT LISTENED TO BALANCE OF PHONE CALL. THE WOMAN SAID
SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE. THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
WOULD BE KILLED.
THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW. WHEN MRS. TIPPIT TRIED TO FIND OUT WHOSE
BROTHER IN LAW THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW.
THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. THE WOMAN SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT WEINSTOCK THE EDITOR OF QUOTE WOMAN-S WORLD
UNQUOTE BUT DID NOT GIVE FURTHER DETAILS.. THE WOMAN SAID THE
END PAGE TWO

PAGE THREE:

GROUP IN NEW YORK PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, THAT OF
COURSE THEY WOULD DENY THIS BUT SHE KNEW IT TO BE TRUE.
SHE THEN HUNG UP ABRUPTLY. THE WOMAN NEVER GAVE ANY REASON
FOR HER CALL WHICH SOUNDED LOCAL. MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH. BOTH FELT THE WOMAN SOUNDED LIKE
A MATURE ADULT AND DID NOT HAVE A YOUTHFUL VOICE.
MR. TIPPIT EXPLAINED WOMAN MAY HAVE OBTAINED HIS IDENTITY
FROM AN ARTICLE ON PAGE ONE OF NORWALK, CONN. QUOTE HOUR
UNQUOTE FOR NOVEMBER TWENTYFIVE LAST, WHICH STATED THAT WE MAY
BE A DISTANT RELATIVE OF THE DALLAS POLICEMAN. TIPPIT SAID
ARTICLE RESULTED FROM TELEPHONE CALL FROM REPORTER WHO WAS
CHECKING ALL TIPPITS IN LOCAL TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES.
BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

An image of the actual document can be seen HERE.

Here's what John A. ACTUALLY said about it:

In January 1962, while in the Soviet Union, Russian speaking HARVEY Oswald wrote a letter to U.S. Senator John Tower (CE 1058). The letter was later read by Vladimir Petrov, a professor and head of the Slavic Language Department at Yale University. After studying the letter Professor Petrov wrote to Senator Tower and said, "I am satisfied that that letter was not written by him (HARVEY     Oswald). It was written by a Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English." But the letter was written by HARVEY Oswald and, if Professor Petrov was correct, then the writer of the letter was a NATIVE Russian speaking person with an imperfect knowledge of English. Petrov's professional opinion, and conclusion, is that HARVEY Oswald (the writer of the letter) was a native speaking Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English. Russian speaking HARVEY Oswald was recruited by the CIA and sent to the Soviet Union precisely because of his ability to speak the Russian language. We are now left to ponder the early life of Russian speaking HARVEY Oswald, his ancestors, and his place of birth.

According to the Warren Report, Lee Harvey Oswald was born in New Orleans in 1939, the son of Marguerite and Robert E. Lee Oswald. But JFK researcher John Armstrong believes the FBI and the Warren Commission distorted and merged the biographies of two very different young men who both used the name Lee Harvey Oswald. The tall, husky New Orleans born LEE Oswald preferred to be called "LEE." The short, thin, and quiet boy who spoke Russian preferred to be called "HARVEY." The early life of LEE Oswald, from 1939 thru 1947, closely follows the Warren Commission legend. But nothing is known about the early life of HARVEY Oswald (prior to 1947). HARVEY first appears in Benbrook, TX, in June 1947, while at the same time LEE Oswald was living with his family in Ft. Worth. Beginning in 1947 and continuing through Nov 22, 1963, the backgrounds of both LEE and HARVEY were merged in order to create the fictional "legend" we know as Lee Harvey Oswald. We know that LEE was born in New Orleans in 1939, but what about HARVEY? Who was HARVEY and where did he come from?

The day after the assassination Mrs. Jack Tippit, of Westport, Connecticut was telephoned by an unidentified woman. This woman said she personally knew Oswald's father and uncle in New York City, who were from Hungary, promoted communism and lived at 77th and 2nd Avenue in Yorkville (NYC). This woman asked Mrs. Tippit to relay her information to Dallas authorities. This woman may have thought Oswald's relatives were communists, but in reality they were most likely working undercover for our government.

There are literally millions and millions of documents relating to the assassination of President Kennedy in the National Archives. But there is only one document, among the millions, that suggests a possible origin for Russian speaking HARVEY Oswald. An anonymous telephone tip can hardly be considered proof of anything, but it does offer an intriguing clue as to the possible location and origin of a very young HARVEY Oswald (prior to 1947) and possible family members. It should be noted that Russian is an often-spoken second language in Hungary, and it would hardly be surprising that Hungarian immigrants could speak Russian fluently.

The woman who telephoned Mrs. Tippit said she knew Oswald's father and uncle, who, she said, were Hungarians and communists. If this is true then it is probable the FBI and Director Hoover knew about these people from the early 1950s. A New York Times story of June 21, 1951 (page 16) indicated that during the previous year (1950) 21 people had been arrested in New York City and were awaiting trial for Communist related activities. One of the people arrested was Louis Weinstock, the Hungarian born leader of the Communist Party USA. Weinstock, born in 1903, was one of two names mentioned by the anonymous woman who called the Tippits of Westport, Connecticut. In December 1962, HARVEY Oswald corresponded with Weinstock, who was then general manager of The Worker.

In the early 1950s the majority of active members of the American Communist Party were actually FBI agents working under cover. These people may have acted like communists, but in reality they were agents provocateur and their mission was to uncover and identify domestic communists for the FBI. It is difficult to believe that a supporter of communism would consider participating in Communist demonstrations in the heart of New York City at the height of the McCarthy era. But it is easy to believe the FBI, through their undercover informants, knew the identities of any and all persons suspected of being communists or supporting communist activities. The fact that Louis Weinstock was active in communist activities in NYC from the early 1950s through the early 1960s is a good indication that he was an FBI agent provocateur or informant.

The woman who called Mrs. Tippit apparently knew that Oswald's father and uncle were communists and lived at 77th and 2nd Ave. in Yorkville. The House on Un-American Activities in New York had a file on a Marguerite Oswald in January, 1953. This file contained references to 1941, Nazis, and New Jersey, and was eventually discovered in a CIA office of Security file. The Assassination Records Review Board requested this file, but the request was denied. It is reasonable to assume the FBI should also have known about these "communists" Mrs. Tippit referenced. In 1959, after Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union, the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover knew about Oswald. Eight months later (in June 1960) Hoover wrote a memo to the State Department stating, "Since there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald's birth certificate, any current information the Department of State may have concerning the subject will be appreciated." During the time HARVEY Oswald was in the Soviet Union, the FBI received numerous reports that (LEE) Oswald was in the USA (Florida, New Orleans, Dallas). After HARVEY Oswald returned to the USA with wife and child in June, 1962, the FBI monitored his activities.

One month before the assassination (10/24/63) FBI SA Milton Kaack reviewed the birth records of Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans. By November 22, 1963 Hoover knew a great deal about the two Oswalds, and he knew that a thorough investigation into their backgrounds could expose HARVEY and LEE and the US government agency that created the "Oswald project." That afternoon (11/22/63) FBI SA James Hosty sat in on Oswald's first interrogation with the Dallas Police. Hosty was soon ordered, by an unidentified FBI counterintelligence officer, to have no further discussions with Oswald and not to investigate his background. Local FBI agents in Dallas and New Orleans would not be allowed to conduct their own, unsupervised investigations into the Oswalds or into their family backgrounds. Hoover and senior FBI officials knew perfectly well they had to manage and control their well-trained agents by telling them exactly where to go, exactly what evidence to confiscate, and specifically which people to interview and not to interview. Original FBI reports of "field" investigations and original evidence confiscated by the Dallas Police were sent to FBI headquarters in Washington, DC, where Hoover and senior FBI officials were waiting, were in complete control, and knew how to manipulate the evidence. As top FBI official William Sullivan said, "When an enormous organization like the FBI with tremendous power still can sit back and shuffle the deck of cards and pick up the card they want to show you it may be you're not going to get the entire picture. If there were documents that possibly he (Hoover) didn't want to come to the light of the public, then those documents no longer exist, and the truth will never be known."

Hoover's knowledge of HARVEY and LEE was so extensive that he knew exactly where to send his agents in order to confiscate 6-8 year old employment records, elementary and junior high school records from New York City, Ft. Worth, New Orleans, and other material that could expose the two Oswalds. Oswald's possessions, collected by the Dallas Police, were sent to FBI headquarters only 14 hours after the assassination. Within 72 hours most of the documentation that could have exposed HARVEY and LEE was already in Washington, DC. Two days later, on November 24, FBI Associate Director Clyde Tolson wrote, "Shanklin said results of the investigation have been reduced to written form and consequently the information will all be available for these two supervisors. We can prepare a memorandum to the Attorney General [Robert Kennedy] to set out the evidence showing that Oswald is responsible for the shooting that killed the President. We will show that Oswald was an avowed Marxist, a former defector to the Soviet union and an active member of the FPCC, which has been financed by Castro. We will set forth the items of evidence which make it clear that Oswald is the man who killed the President." Two days after the assassination, and five days before the Warren Commission was established, FBI leadership had already decided that Oswald was the lone assassin. The remaining task was to distribute their manipulated and fabricated evidence to the Warren Commission, which supported the Bureau's two-day old investigation that concluded "Lee Harvey Oswald" had shot and killed JFK.

Edited January 25 by Jim Hargrove

[Jonathan Cohen]

15 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

An anonymous telephone tip can hardly be considered proof of anything.

That's right. It is absolutely not proof of anything, at all. Yet, "Harvey and Lee" wrongly trumpets it as legitimate "evidence" in support of the idiotic theory. 

[Jim Hargrove]

3 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

That's right. It is absolutely not proof of anything, at all. Yet, "Harvey and Lee" wrongly trumpets it as legitimate "evidence" in support of the idiotic theory. 

Calling any theory supported by so many people "idiotic" is clearly demeaning and against forum rules.   I have reported your post.

[Jonathan Cohen]

18 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Calling any theory supported by so many people "idiotic" is clearly demeaning and against forum rules.   I have reported your post.

I called the theory idiotic. Not you, or any other human being. Please do show me how using an adjective to describe a theory is "against forum rules."

[Jim Hargrove]

Maybe you're right.  I was thinking of this part of the rules:

Members are responsible for what they post on this board. A member

will not use this board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or

defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane,

sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise

violative of any law.

Saying that the analysis I and many others believe is "idiotic" strikes me as inaccurate, abusive, hateful and, considering how you seem to do it so often, harassing.  But I'll be satisfied by whatever the mods decide.

BTW, now that I have put the source material for the Tippit's of Connecticut  report right in front of you, wouldn't you like to correct the misstatements Tracy Parnell made and you quoted?

[Jonathan Cohen]

9 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

BTW, now that I have put the source material for the Tippit's of Connecticut  report right in front of you, wouldn't you like to correct the misstatements Tracy Parnell made and you quoted?

There's nothing to correct because this incident clearly has nothing to do with an imaginary doppelganger program involving Lee Oswald.

[Jim Hargrove]

To Jonathan Cohen:

The two-Oswald project was quite real.  The evidence for two Oswalds runs like a river through the entire decade leading up to the assassination of JFK.  

You obviously don’t care that you quote demonstrably false statements by Tracy Parnell even though you have the original document right in front of you for comparison.

For example, you wrote, 

Armstrong says that the woman caller "knew the Tippits were related to Officer JD Tippit." This statement is apparently an attempt to give weight to the woman's allegations. Unfortunately, it is incorrect. The FBI document states, "Mrs. Tippit received a telephone call from unknown woman who asked if Mr. Tippit was a policeman and if he was related to the policeman Tippit who was shot in Dallas”.

And yet, the actual FBI teletype says, in capital letters no less:

 MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER.

I’ll ask you to spot another inaccuracy in the material you quoted, but I doubt you’ll even try.