Rob Reiner talks about two Oswalds

[Leslie Sharp]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:41 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

First of all, I "Prayer Man’s" picture is too fuzzy to determine anything!  Second, the provenance of the oft-cited “Fritz’s notes” is ludicrous. Third, as the designated patsy, it would be insane to allow Oswald to be seen on the TSBD steps at the time of the assassination.  He was ordered to stay inside, no doubt.

If I could hug you I would!  I fought that battle for months and months on Morley's site, attempting to point out just that:  A Patsy is Not Effective if Captured on Camera During the Assassination. And the hubris of Aussies claiming to be experts in interpreting the local vernacular was especially offensive to this Texan who spent fifteen years inside the beast that was Dallas in 1963.  (caveat: Greg's research in a number of other areas appears solid.)

With that out of the way, I wasn't being coy in my initial comment on this thread. We have never corresponded so I thought the Texas Theatre arrests (plural) would serve as an ice breaker.

Odum's appearance on the scene is significant to our investigation.  If he arrived at the back of the theatre at the prompting of an unidentified DP, he wouldn't appear in the photos in front. Without photos or additional testimony beyond Odum's affidavit, we have no way of knowing who he witnessed being removed from the back. If he was there, if he saw another O being walked out the back entrance, then he's even more complicit in the cover up than has been alleged.

[Paul Brancato]

Surely you are not suggesting that Oswald knew he was the designated patsy beforehand? Who do you suppose ordered him to stay inside? 

Edited January 27 by Paul Brancato

[Jim Hargrove]

I sincerely doubt Agent Oswald was told he was about to be framed for the murder of JFK.  His CIA contact/supervisor at the TSBD was, I believe, Bill Shelley.  

On our website, John A. wrote,

Elzie Glaze was a Dallas journalist who in 1974 met a woman who had been working for the Texas Book Depository since 1969. Her immediate supervisor was Bill Shelley, who Glaze contacted and met on numerous occasions. In a 1989 letter Glaze wrote, "Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA."

Note that Shelley appears to turn up, besides at the TSBD, in another interesting situation in New Orleans.

The top three images are of Shelley on Nov. 22, 1963.  The bottom two pix show a man (see red arrows) who sure looks like Shelley right near Oswald at the infamous leaflet incident in New Orleans.

Edited January 27 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:24 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

If I could hug you I would!  I fought that battle for months and months on Morley's site, attempting to point out just that:  A Patsy is Not Effective if Captured on Camera During the Assassination. And the hubris of Aussies claiming to be experts in interpreting the local vernacular was especially offensive to this Texan who spent fifteen years inside the beast that was Dallas in 1963. (caveat: Greg's research in a number of other areas appears solid.)

With that out of the way, I wasn't being coy in my initial comment on this thread. We have never corresponded so I thought the Texas Theatre arrests (plural) would serve as an ice breaker.

Odum's appearance on the scene is significant to our investigation.  If he arrived at the back of the theatre at the prompting of an unidentified DP, he wouldn't appear in the photos in front. Without photos or additional testimony beyond Odum's affidavit, we have no way of knowing who he witnessed being removed from the back. If he was there, if he saw another O being walked out the back entrance, then he's even more complicit in the cover up than has been alleged.

Thanks for the virtual hug! 

Odum is interesting to me because of his association with the Magic Minox and his interaction with Cliff Shasteen, and all that Oswald car driving/non-driving confusion.  But I thought Odum was up in front of the theater as Harvey Oswald was dragged out.  Do you have information suggesting he may have gone to the back of the building?

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks for the virtual hug! 

Odum is interesting to me because of his association with the Magic Minox and his interaction with Cliff Shasteen, and all that Oswald car driving/non-driving confusion.  But I thought Odum was up in front of the theater as Harvey Oswald was dragged out.  Do you have information suggesting he may have gone to the back of the building?

Only his statement that he had been advised by an unidentified police officer that a suspect had been led out the back entrance, leading to the logical argument that Odum drove straight to the back of the theater.  I haven't seen evidence he was in front as an Oswald was dragged out.


' . . . Less than an hour after the rifle discovery, Bard Odum, along with Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department, was photographed leaving the depository building with the alleged rifle used by an alleged assassin from the sniper’s nest. Lt. Day later stated that en route to headquarters, SA Odum had used his car radio to contact the Dallas FBI office and described the rifle. As Gallagher pointed out in 1998, there didn’t seem to be a record of this communication, but there is no doubt that early descriptions of the rifle set in motion rampant confusion as to the official identification of the alleged weapon.

Odum, an agent of the federal government, was at the DPD headquarters only briefly before dashing to the Texas Theater where a suspect in the shooting of a Dallas police officer was about to be apprehended. It has yet to be explained what prompted Odum to attend that particular arrest in the middle of what should have been the most aggressive manhunt in the nation’s history. Why would his boss, SAC Gordon Shanklin pull one of his prize protégés from the search for Kennedy’s assassin to pursue a local shooting, unless of course, Shanklin had already been advised that Lee Oswald would not only be charged with gunning down Officer J.D. Tippit, but that he would soon be charged with the assassination of Kennedy.

Once Oswald was in custody at the Texas Theatre, Odum, instead of tracking federal arrests being made in critical hours of the assassination, inexplicably spent another hour and a half in pursuit of the Tippit shooting along with nearly a dozen DPD staff. Federal detentions in the Dallas area during that twenty-four hour period—persons of interest to the Feds since the spring of 1963—stand out: Jean Rene Souetre and Michel Mertz and possibly Michel Roux.

Rather than being ordered to question Souetre and or Mertz or Roux, Odum seems focused on Tippit’s murder, even taking time to interview Helen Markham who had witnessed a young male fleeing the scene. In another rarely heralded essay published in the Fourth Decade in 1997, researcher Tom Wallace Lyons summed up Odum’s early influence over the Tippit investigation, asserting that Odum sewed the confusion that contributed to Markham being labeled as an inconsistent, unreliable witness for decades to come.

In another noteworthy timeline, while Odum is biding time in Oak Cliff, pursuing a case that was technically outside his jurisdiction, Lee Oswald’s various addresses were being nailed down at the school book depository. Meanwhile, Oswald was being driven to police headquarters in Car Number 2 under the custody of Jerry Hill and his colleagues. According to Bill Simpich, another researcher who has long recognized that the elusive Bard demands close scrutiny, Jerry Hill had been on the sixth floor of the depository building when Mannlicher-Carcano shells were found and reported as a match to the rifle that Bard Odum escorted to police headquarters. Either the police department and the FBI were stretched thin that afternoon, or this was one of numerous serendipitous coincidences that would unfold in the next few days. . . . 

Researcher/author Simpich also references records that indicate the confusion facilitated by Odum around the identification of a Minox camera discovered in the Paines’ garage, discrepancies that were fueled by Michael Paine’s sudden realization that the camera was his. Simpich then reminds us of perhaps the most intriguing fact relevant to the pursuit of the real caretaker: SA Odum and Oswald had shared the same Irving barber, Cliff Shasteen. Absent the official records of Odum’s work schedule throughout 1963 to determine who he may or may not have been assigned, Shasteen provides perhaps the single most solid clue in support of the hypothesis that Odum was the Oswald caretaker named by Lafitte beginning in March 1963. — CiD

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Surely you are not suggesting that Oswald knew he was the designated patsy beforehand? Who do you suppose ordered him to stay inside? 

This question comes into better focus with a review of Dick Russell's The Man Who Knew Too Much.  In essence for those who haven't studied Dick's book, Richard Case Nagell warned Oswald he might be being set up.

After his return from Mex City, Oswald had a bit of a meltdown according to Lafitte who wrote on October 6, Oswald — issue (!) check [checkmark] with caretaker... [*]

Contributing to our understanding of the sequence of events, an October 15 classified ad in the DMN read, Running Man, please call me. Please. Please. signed "Lee." The following day, Oswald went to work at the depository.

It appears from Lafitte's notes that the "issue" was resolved because by October 25 when Lafitte called Angleton in DC to determine that O[tto] says done — Oswald set in place —call Walker & Others, it's apparent that the strategist was satisfied to some extent that the patsy component of the assassination plan was back on track.

On November 2, Lafitte records Runner Runner [FBI] w/ T 4 p.m. indicating another meeting was scheduled related in some way to Runner who we argue corresponds with the Oct 15 DMN classified ad signed by Lee.  

With that string of communication in mind — coupled with all that had transpired since April 1963 including Oswald's encounters with Richard Case Nagell who got himself arrested to avoid being implicated — is it reasonable to argue Oswald was completely in the dark as he walked in the door Friday morning?  

*NOTE: The primary candidate for caretaker is still FBI SA Bardwell Odum.

Edited January 27 by Leslie Sharp

[Ron Bulman]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:24 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

If I could hug you I would!  I fought that battle for months and months on Morley's site, attempting to point out just that:  A Patsy is Not Effective if Captured on Camera During the Assassination. And the hubris of Aussies claiming to be experts in interpreting the local vernacular was especially offensive to this Texan who spent fifteen years inside the beast that was Dallas in 1963. (caveat: Greg's research in a number of other areas appears solid.)

With that out of the way, I wasn't being coy in my initial comment on this thread. We have never corresponded so I thought the Texas Theatre arrests (plural) would serve as an ice breaker.

Odum's appearance on the scene is significant to our investigation.  If he arrived at the back of the theatre at the prompting of an unidentified DP, he wouldn't appear in the photos in front. Without photos or additional testimony beyond Odum's affidavit, we have no way of knowing who he witnessed being removed from the back. If he was there, if he saw another O being walked out the back entrance, then he's even more complicit in the cover up than has been alleged.

IF Odum is Caretaker, he might have had foreknowledge that one of the Oswald's might try to meet a contact at the Texas Theater.  Food for thought, fwiw.  Given your essay in Coup In Dallas you would know better than any of us.  I don't remember Odum at the back door of the TT in it, where is that from, others will want to know.

A favorite of mine.  Watch Stephen Stills duck walk (aka Chuck Berry) to intro Neil Young to the world.  Then play his ass off.  Then Young to play to/with Grahm Nash with his back facing the audience.  Afterwards the emcee who introduced them rushing across the stage to hug Nash.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

4 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

IF Odum is Caretaker, he might have had foreknowledge that one of the Oswald's might try to meet a contact at the Texas Theater.  Food for thought, fwiw.  Given your essay in Coup In Dallas you would know better than any of us.  I don't remember Odum at the back door of the TT in it, where is that from, others will want to know.

A favorite of mine.  Watch Stephen Stills duck walk (aka Chuck Berry) to intro Neil Young to the world.  Then play his ass off.  Then Young to play to/with Grahm Nash with his back facing the audience.  Afterwards the emcee who introduced them rushing across the stage to hug Nash.

 

It Was The Best of Times! 🙂

You may have missed my response to you yesterday:

And speaking of the back door: "At approximately 2 p.m., November 22, 1963, I was informed by an unidentified policeman of the DPD that a suspect had been seen entering the back door of the Texas Theater. I immediately proceeded to the Texas Theater...." — FBI SA Bardwell Dewitt Odum


And as I noted in my response to Jim H. today, I've found no documentation to confirm that Odum drove straight to the back of the theatre based on the info provided him by the unidentified policeman. It's possible he was in front watching an Oswald being "dragged out" and never actually saw another suspect being "carted off."  Did Bard file a report and I've overlooked it?


 

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I sincerely doubt Agent Oswald was told he was about to be framed for the murder of JFK.  His CIA contact/supervisor at the TSBD was, I believe, Bill Shelley.  

On our website, John A. wrote,

Elzie Glaze was a Dallas journalist who in 1974 met a woman who had been working for the Texas Book Depository since 1969. Her immediate supervisor was Bill Shelley, who Glaze contacted and met on numerous occasions. In a 1989 letter Glaze wrote, "Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA."

Note that Shelley appears to turn up, besides at the TSBD, in another interesting situation in New Orleans.

The top three images are of Shelley on Nov. 22, 1963.  The bottom two pix show a man (see red arrows) who sure looks like Shelley right near Oswald at the infamous leaflet incident in New Orleans.

I realize these questions have been addressed on EF over the years, but in light of the Reiner-O'Brien podcast aren't they worth revisiting.

If Shelley was his CIA contact/supervisor at the depository, then Shelley was responsible for his movements on Friday.  

Doesn't the "Prayer Man" movement rely heavily on Oswald's statement that he was "out front with Shelley" or "with Shelley out front" or a permutation thereof as evidence he was not inside?  Would that suggest Shelley wasn't read in fully on the assassination operation so he dropped the ball by failing to ensure the patsy remained inside the building? That seems implausible to me.

Or did Oswald lie about being outside with Shelley? Didn't Shelley later corroborate his claim? Did Oswald realize he was set up and decided to drag Shelly into the mix?  I don't recall Shelley's specific testimony but perhaps someone else following the thread will weigh in.

Does any of this lead to Joe Molina? If Oswald was duped, it seems guns and gunrunning would be the perfect foil. 

[Leslie Sharp]

@Ron Bulman IF Odum is Caretaker, he might have had foreknowledge that one of the Oswald's might try to meet a contact at the Texas Theater.  

 

Ron, there's no indication in the datebook that Lafitte — at the behest of Harvey or T or Angleton, let alone Otto Skorzeny — is dealing with two Oswalds. By extension, there's no substantial reason to believe Caretaker was working two Oswalds without Lafitte's knowledge.  It's not impossible, but how would it work on a purely practical level? If Lafitte asked about Oswald or was advising about Oswald, would Caretaker or T know which Oswald?  Caretaker and T leap frog responsibilities for Oswald. Which one?

I've had this discussion at length with David Josephs whose Mexico City research is very impressive, and we've agreed that two Oswalds would solve a myriad of discrepancies. However, nothing alters the fact that Lafitte was only dealing with one.

[Ron Bulman]

I wasn't suggesting Odum knew of two Oswald's, but that possibly he knew in advance one might seek a contact at the Texas Theater.  Thus he went to the back door.  As opposed to being told by an unknown DOD officer.

[Leslie Sharp]

2 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I wasn't suggesting Odum knew of two Oswald's, but that possibly he knew in advance one might seek a contact at the Texas Theater.  Thus he went to the back door.  As opposed to being told by an unknown DOD officer.

If Alpine(?) is in the mix, maybe that's who the unidentified policeman saw being escorted out the back entrance, and in the frenzy he told Odum without realizing the error. But it doesn't explain why a federal agent removed himself from the search for the president's assassin to rush to TT witness the arrest of a suspect in the murder of a city cop. Was the unidentified policeman a ruse?

 

It's been argued that Odum's "instinct" and that of most who rushed to TT told them the suspect at TT was involved in both. 

Then again, considering his subsequent role in the investigation, its probable he was "in on it" since April, just prior to the Walker incident.

I think earlier we discussed the possibility that beginning November 2, the patsy was passed off to those on the ground while Lafitte concentrated on Otto's strategy for an L-shaped hit in Dealey on the 22nd.

(Shelley is of keen interest.)

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks for these posts, Leslie.  I read Mr. Russell’s book so long ago I’ve forgotten many of the details,  but your observations indicating Oswald should have at least known, uh, something was up are interesting, and begs the question, What was he told to keep him inside the building that day and just before leaving the TSBD ?

Late last year, Len Osanic located and released a 1966 interview of Vicki Adams by Mort Sahl and and Mark Lane,  Toward the very end of the interview, Adams confirmed that Shelley and Lovelady were are the bottom of the rear staircase just a minute or so after the shots were fired.  Our bet is that Shelley gave Oswald (the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby) his final instructions, and two torn dollar bills to help identify a non-existent “contact” at the theater.

The Warren Committee lawyers seemed uncomfortable with Vicki Lawrence’s encounter with Shelley and Lovelady.
 

 

You raise some other interesting questions that I’ll try to study a little more.  One thing my aging brain can’t seem to recall at the moment:  Is there credible evidence Oswald claimed to be “out front with Shelley” somewhere other than in the dubious “Fritz’s notes?”
 

[David Von Pein]

19 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The Warren Committee lawyers seemed uncomfortable with Vicki Lawrence’s encounter with Shelley and Lovelady.

I didn't know Mama Harper was at the Depository on 11/22. Cool! Maybe she was playing the part of Marguerite #2 that day.

 

Edited January 27 by David Von Pein

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/26/2024 at 4:45 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

OMG Jim, this anonymous telephone call is better evidence than I had realized. The real kicker is the fact that the caller mentioned Weinstock, the editor of Woman's World, which in all likelihood was a mishearing of Worker's World given that the anonymous caller had an accent. Worker's World was a communist newspaper of that time period.

Oswald had months earlier exchanged letters with Louis Weinstock, manager of The Worker newspaper. Given his high position in the communist party, and the fact that we was born in Hungary, it seems likely that this was the Weinstock mentioned by the anonymous caller. (And I wouldn't be surprised if the anonymous caller meant The Worker when she said Worker's World. Though this is of no consequence.)

The anonymous call certainly seems real and not some kind of prank. Taking it seriously, I think the most important question about the call is how it is she related the boy she spoke of to Oswald. Did they have the same name? Did they look the same?

I suppose we'll never know.

 

We’ll probably never be able to prove much about it, but to me the report of that anonymous caller always seemed to have an air of authenticity. The “EMILE KARDOS” named in the report was probably Emil Gardos (wife named Grace) who had a son named John and lived in the Yorkville area of NYC in the 1940s. He was deported for communist activities, apparently, around 1950.  There is some speculation that the Russian-speaking Oswald stayed with the Gardos family for a while before that.

Just a couple of years ago, a forum member named John Kowalski managed to contact the daughter of the Mrs. Jack Tippit mentioned in the FBI report.  The daughter said that her mother was still alive and had saved substantial notes she made about the conversation. John K. tried a couple of times to speak with the elderly Mrs. Tippit and inquire about the notes, but in the end he was unsuccessful.

The whole thing has to be regarded as a long-shot in tracing the early evidence of the Russian-speaking Oswald in America, but I’ll always wonder if there wasn’t something to it.