Pat Speer Chats with Francois Carlier

[Michael Crane]

54 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

I found the interview to be an interesting look at Pat's research approach, and his thinking on several subjects.  I think it was more of an interview than a discussion by two people who disagreed.  Carlier spent most of the time nodding in apparent agreement and at the end praised Pat's answers, while saying he had learned a lot. That he says he had started as a disciple of David Lifton, but was now a LNer indicates a certain openminded on his part, if nothing else.

 

I want to focus on what you said about LBJ, Pat. You made an important point right off the bat. The others who wanted Kennedy whacked needed assurances from Johnson, before they could go ahead with the plan, that he wouldn't come after them afterwards. He would have authority over the coverup that protected them.

 

But logic tells me Johnson's involvement with the murder plan went beyond that one nod of the head.

 

The murder was not the work of a committee.  There had to have been a small set of people with decisionmaking authority.  It's likely Johnson was one of them, as I have said before.

 

There was a well known disagreement among the full group of Kennedy haters about how to use the Oswald story they had agreed upon.  After the murder Johnson quickly squelched the idea that Oswald did it for the commies.  He had lusted after the presidency too long to see it destroyed by a catastrophic war.

 

But there is no way the decisionmakers would have left that question to be decided on the fly after the murder, among the chaos that ensued. It seems clear that version was taken off the table before the murder was given the go ahead.  It is also clear that Johnson, who was to be the guy with authority over the investigation once Oswald was killed, would have been the guy who insisted on that. Johnson killed the other investigation starting up to centralize everything in the Warren Commission he created to make sure there was no real inquiry.

 

Which is not to say that those who wanted to go after Cuba and the SU all accepted no for an answer.  There were still attempts after the murder to bring in Cuba and the SU as the villains, that Johnson had to squelch.

 

There was a third element of Johnson's involvement.  He had to assure the others he would not stand in the way of their foreign policy plans, as Kennedy had done. Pax Americana would be implemented.  While stopping a war with the SU, and perhaps in return for it, he agreed to the Vietnam escalation.

 

Johnson's agreement to remove the foreign policy impediments Kennedy had constructed was absolutely necessary before the plan could go forward. Otherwise the murder would have lost its main purpose. It's not clear how explicit Johnson's agreement had to be in that regard, since the others knew Johnson pretty well. But it had to be understood by the others.

My $.02 cents

Unless Madeline Brown was a scorn lover,the meeting at Clint Murchinson's went over all of the details the night before the parade.

 

Edited March 25 by Michael Crane

[Robert Morrow]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Robert,

From Roy Truly's WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at this time?
Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a state organization or a private company?
Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation.

 

“Corsicana Daily Sun” from Corsicana, Texas March 31, 1970 Page 10

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/41268447/

 

“The building (the Texas School Book Depository) is owned by the Dallas Trust Corp. The majority stockholder of the firm, Col. D. Harold Byrd, 69, has decided to liquidate some of his holdings.”

 

1961 Dallas City Directory page 387

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/723/?q=Byrd

 

Steve Thomas

Thank-you. Also, do you know where I can get monthly quotes on LTV stock from October, 1963 to January, 1969? Anything easy to find on the internet? Or do I have to dive into old newspaper archives?

[Robert Morrow]

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I found the interview to be an interesting look at Pat's research approach, and his thinking on several subjects.  I think it was more of an interview than a discussion by two people who disagreed.  Carlier spent most of the time nodding in apparent agreement and at the end praised Pat's answers, while saying he had learned a lot. That he says he had started as a disciple of David Lifton, but was now a LNer indicates a certain openminded on his part, if nothing else.

 

I want to focus on what you said about LBJ, Pat. You made an important point right off the bat. The others who wanted Kennedy whacked needed assurances from Johnson, before they could go ahead with the plan, that he wouldn't come after them afterwards. He would have authority over the coverup that protected them.

 

But logic tells me Johnson's involvement with the murder plan went beyond that one nod of the head.

 

The murder was not the work of a committee.  There had to have been a small set of people with decisionmaking authority.  It's likely Johnson was one of them, as I have said before.

 

There was a well known disagreement among the full group of Kennedy haters about how to use the Oswald story they had agreed upon.  After the murder Johnson quickly squelched the idea that Oswald did it for the commies.  He had lusted after the presidency too long to see it destroyed by a catastrophic war.

 

But there is no way the decisionmakers would have left that question to be decided on the fly after the murder, among the chaos that ensued. It seems clear that version was taken off the table before the murder was given the go ahead.  It is also clear that Johnson, who was to be the guy with authority over the investigation once Oswald was killed, would have been the guy who insisted on that. Johnson killed the other investigation starting up to centralize everything in the Warren Commission he created to make sure there was no real inquiry.

 

Which is not to say that those who wanted to go after Cuba and the SU all accepted no for an answer.  There were still attempts after the murder to bring in Cuba and the SU as the villains, that Johnson had to squelch.

 

There was a third element of Johnson's involvement.  He had to assure the others he would not stand in the way of their foreign policy plans, as Kennedy had done. Pax Americana would be implemented.  While stopping a war with the SU, and perhaps in return for it, he agreed to the Vietnam escalation.

 

Johnson's agreement to remove the foreign policy impediments Kennedy had constructed was absolutely necessary before the plan could go forward. Otherwise the murder would have lost its main purpose. It's not clear how explicit Johnson's agreement had to be in that regard, since the others knew Johnson pretty well. But it had to be understood by the others.

Let me tell you something about Lyndon Johnson, who I have read a lot about. In fact - Robert Caro eat dirt - I am the World's Foremost Authority on Lyndon Johnson.

If LBJ knew the Kennedys were out to utterly destroy him in the fall of 1963 (which they were), he WOULD NOT HAVE RESTED UNTIL HE HAD KILLED OR DESTROYED THE KENNEDYS, ONE OR BOTH OF THEM.

Lyndon Johnson was a man who was a "malignantly narcissistic criminal psychopath" as well as a "pathological liar" of the first degree; there are so many examples of his psychopathy; I collect them.

LBJ was a man with a very thin skin who could not take any criticism whatsoever. LBJ very greatly feared public humiliation, exposure or any type of criticism at all. The slightest criticism of LBJ would throw him into a rage.

https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2020/07/lyndon-johnson-was-acutely-aware-by-nov.html

And in November of 1963 the Kennedys were within days of dropping a Hydrogen bomb amount of national humiliation on his head with massive, coordinated media exposes into his epic corruption. In the mind of LBJ who knew all about this, this was an IMMINENT DEATH THREAT.

The other thing one needs to know about LBJ is that he was a MICROMANGER. Read biographies and anecdotes about LBJ and this theme comes out again and again. LBJ would call his minions 24 hours per day, riding them to complete any task that he had set them on. LBJ was detail oriented, intelligent, devious, Machiavellian and a careful planner who "followed through" maniacally on every project/crime that he was focused on.

Rufus Youngblood, his Secret Service man, said LBJ would give you instructions on how to turn a screw. LBJ used to manage his ranch and his TV/radio business in microscopic detail. For the 1957 Civil Rights Act, which LBJ wanted to pass so he would be slightly more palatable to Democratic liberals who hated his guts, LBJ took books home and became an expert on civil rights law, not that he cared one whit about civil rights.

Texas Reporter Sarah McLendon recalls seeing LBJ have a mass meeting in his office as he masterfully solved a very thorny clashing bureaucracies problem. McLendon saw LBJ carefully identify all the problems and then slice and dice his way through the thicket until the problem was solved.

Lyndon Johnson was a micromanager, detailed oriented; he had an all-consuming fear of public humiliation, embarrassment and exposure; he hated the Kennedys with the fire of 100 white suns and he was acutely aware that in November 1963 the Kennedys and pulled out their long knives for him.

Even if LBJ delegated the actual shooting of JFK to people in military/anti-Castro Cubans, he micromanaged the JFK assassination with whichever plotters he was on board with.

I actually think LBJ was planning to murder JFK as early as the summer, 1960 Democratic convention and would do it eventually if the Democrats won in 1960. LBJ's right hand man Bobby Baker on inauguration day 1961 predicted to Don Reynolds that JFK would not finish his first term and that he would die a violent death. Edward Epstein wrote about Bobby Baker anecdote in Esquire Magazine in 1966.

Dallas Times Herald reporter Margaret Meyer (who used to work for LBJ) said she never saw a MORE UNHAPPY MAN than LBJ was on the night of 11/08/1960 when he was elected vice president. She said LBJ "looked like he had lost his last friend on earth." [Merle Miller, Lyndon-An Oral Biography, p. 273]

All I know is there was pure hate between LBJ and the Kennedys before and during the 1960 Democratic primary race; all through JFK's presidency. At his birthday mere days before the JFK assassination, Robert Kennedy was given a VOODOO DOLL OF LYNDON JOHNSON with pins stuck in it. And there was nothing but pure hate between the Kennedys and LBJ post JFK assassination as well (public comments and photo ops be damned).

My take on the JFK assassination has Lyndon Johnson as the micromanaging ringleader in concert with certain of his Texas power broker pals/oil men/defense contractors/lawyer who used their deep personal connections to military and intelligence to orchestrate the murder of JFK. A subgroup of these would be some anti-Castro Cubans and CIA-connected people from the Operation Mongoose program which Gen. Edward Landale (also a JFK murder plotter) ran for the Kennedys.

A prime example of LBJ's micromanagement of the JFK assassination would be his listening to a walkie talkie turned down low with Secret Service agent Rufus Youngblood while the Dallas motorcades was proceeding. This comes from Senator Yarborough who witnessed this and there is no innocent explanation for this behavior. Jim Marrs interviewed Sen. Yarborough about this. Lunch at the Trade Mart was mere minutes away; why could LBJ just calmly sit in the back seat of his Lincoln convertible and enjoy the fresh air outside? Why be on the walkie talkie? What are you so concerned about LBJ?

 

 

 

Edited March 25 by Robert Morrow

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

I actually think Roy Truly and Marrion Baker saw Oswald (who said he was a patsy) on the second floor TSBD.

 

Wow... incredible.

Are you aware that James Hosty wrote in his interrogation notes that Oswald said he was outside watching the presidential parade? Do you think Oswald was lying?

Given the fact that the government covered up Oswald's alibi (Hosty's note), among numerous other things, doesn't it make more sense that the government is the one who lied, by fabricating the second-floor encounter?

By now it should be universally accepted that the second-floor encounter didn't occur. There are just too many problems with it.

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Are you aware that James Hosty wrote in his interrogation notes that Oswald said he was outside watching the presidential parade? Do you think Oswald was lying?

And you surely are aware, Sandy, that Oswald himself confirmed the fact that his encounter with a policeman after the assassination occurred on the 2nd floor and in the lunchroom. Both Captain Fritz and FBI agent James Bookhout wrote in their respective reports that Oswald had confirmed the "second floor" location of the encounter.

So that means, according to the members of the increasingly popular "The Second-Floor Encounter Never Happened" club, that either Oswald was himself lying about where the encounter took place or that Fritz and Bookhout were lying in their reports concerning some of the things they supposedly heard coming out of Oswald's mouth.

I think you, Sandy, have chosen to believe the latter option, which adds two more people to your list of cover-up operatives with respect to this Lunchroom Encounter topic.

Like you said above, Sandy --- Wow...incredible!

 

Edited March 25 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

20 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And you surely are aware that Oswald himself confirmed the fact that his encounter with a policeman after the assassination occurred on the 2nd floor and in the lunchroom. Both Captain Fritz and FBI agent James Bookhout wrote in their respective reports that Oswald had confirmed the location of the encounter.

 

According to FBI agent Bookhout, Oswald said that Officer Baker held a gun on him in the second floor lunchroom when he went there to buy a coke for lunch. And afterward he went down to the first floor and ate lunch in the employees lunchroom.

Hmm... Oswald ate lunch after the shooting? If you want to believe that David, that your prerogative. But the rest of us know it's nonsense.

That's what happens to a perfectly cohesive story when one later adds a fabrication. In this case, the second floor encounter.

 

20 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So that means, according to the members of the increasingly popular "Second-Floor Encounter Never Happened" club, that either Oswald was himself lying about the 2nd-floor encounter or that Fritz and Bookhout were lying in their reports.

 

Or someone altered the report after it was written.

 

20 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I think you, Sandy, have chosen to believe the latter option, which adds 2 more people to your L-i-a-r-s List. Correct?

 

 I don't know if they lied or if the interrogation reports were later altered. Makes no difference to me. It was a coverup and people lie in coverups.

BTW, I apparently need to point out to you that you yourself are claiming that FBI agent James Hosty lied. Even though there was no motive for him to do so.

At least in my case -- what I believe -- there indeed was a motive to lie.

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

24 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

BTW, I apparently need to point out to you that you yourself are claiming that FBI agent James Hosty lied. Even though there was no motive for him to do so.

No, I don't think Hosty lied at all. But I also don't think the words "Presidential Parade" came out of the mouth of Lee Oswald. Based on all of the official final reports (from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, and Kelley), I think the words "P. Parade" that appear in the "new" Hosty note were probably HOSTY'S words and HOSTY'S interpretation of Oswald's "out with Bill Shelley" statement. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more reports (and notes) that had the word "Parade" in them.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

No, I don't think Hosty lied at all. But I also don't think the words "Presidential Parade" came out of the mouth of Lee Oswald. Based on all of the official final reports (from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, and Kelley), I think the words "P. Parade" that appear in the "new" Hosty note were probably HOSTY'S words and HOSTY'S interpretation of Oswald's "out with Bill Shelley" statement. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more reports (and notes) that had the word "Parade" in them.

 

So you think that Hosty was mistaken?

Well okay, I think that Fritz and Bookhout were mistaken.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

So you think that Hosty was mistaken?

Well okay, I think that Fritz and Bookhout were mistaken.

 

In all my investigating of the JFK  assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald comes across as one of the most honest characters.

 

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Thank-you. Also, do you know where I can get monthly quotes on LTV stock from October, 1963 to January, 1969? Anything easy to find on the internet? Or do I have to dive into old newspaper archives?

Robert,

It looks like there are several places where you can research a company's stock prices, if you know their stock market ticket symbol.

One is :

https://www.historicalstockprice.com/ltv-historical-stock-prices/
(You have to register for a free account)

Another is:

INVESTOPEDIA
https://www.historicalstockprice.com/ltv-historical-stock-prices/
(Looks promising. You can enter a range of dates.)

Steve Thomas

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Hmm... Oswald ate lunch after the shooting? If you want to believe that David, that your prerogative. But the rest of us know it's nonsense.

Yes, of course THAT portion of Oswald's statement (about eating lunch after the shooting) is, indeed, nonsense. It's just one of the many lies LHO told after his arrest.

But other things he said to Fritz and Bookhout were not lies---like the fact he had an encounter with a policeman (Baker) in the lunchroom on the 2nd floor after the shooting. That was, of course, true.

But Oswald then decided to add the lie about eating his lunch (post-assassination) on the first floor, and also the lie about standing around outside for "5 or 10 minutes" with Bill Shelley, which would have been impossible for him to do since we know he hopped aboard McWatters' bus at about 12:40. So he couldn't have been out in front of the TSBD shooting the breeze with Shelley at that very same time.

Ergo, some of the things Oswald told Fritz and Bookhout and Hosty were, indeed, truthful, but some were provable falsehoods.

Edited March 26 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In all my investigating of the JFK  assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald comes across as one of the most honest characters.

One of the biggest l-i-a-r-s in the history of Presidential assassinations (Lee H. Oswald) is treated like a snow-white truth-teller by Mr. Larsen.

Absolutely incredible. (And hilarious.)

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/liar-oswald-part-1.html

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, of course THAT portion of Oswald's statement (about eating lunch after the shooting) is, indeed, nonsense. It's just one of the many lies LHO told after his arrest.

 

Oh right Dave... Oswald just had to get that lie in about eating lunch AFTER having Baker draw his gun on him. Heaven forbid the truth got out that he ate lunch first! LOL

 

[Robert Morrow]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Robert,

It looks like there are several places where you can research a company's stock prices, if you know their stock market ticket symbol.

One is :

https://www.historicalstockprice.com/ltv-historical-stock-prices/
(You have to register for a free account)

Another is:

INVESTOPEDIA
https://www.historicalstockprice.com/ltv-historical-stock-prices/
(Looks promising. You can enter a range of dates.)

Steve Thomas

Nice effort, my friend. But I think both of those web sites only go back to 1996.  I think my best solution is to join the NYT to get access to its archives and go to the business section and look up LTV's stock price for every month from late 1963 to early 1969

LTV on Wikipedia: Ling-Temco-Vought - Wikipedia

Btw LTV in November, 1963 was a pure play on electronics and making planes for the government. For the next few years it was quite a "defense contractor" stock. Sometime in 1967 it's stock price hit $169.

Wiki:

QUOTE

With low interest rates allowing the company to borrow huge sums, Ling built one of the major 1960s conglomerates. As long as the target company's earnings exceeded the interest on the loan (or corporate bond), or the company's price/earnings ratio was less than that of Ling-Temco-Vought's stock, the conglomerate became more profitable overall. Given the fairly unsophisticated stock research of the era, the company appeared to be growing without bound, and its share price rose.

In 1964, Ling turned Ling-Temco-Vought into a holding company and established three public companies as subsidiaries, LTV Aerospace, LTV Ling Altec, and LTV Electrosystems. LTV Aerospace received assets for Vought and a large part of Temco Aircraft. LTV Ling Altec contained Altec Electronics and other properties, and the rest went to LTV Electrosystems. The intention was to make the sum of the parts appear to be worth more than the whole. Ling used this technique to raise capital and buy more companies.^[1] Portions of LTV Electrosystems were later spun off to E-Systems, then part of Raytheon IIS, and since 2002, part of L-3 Communications-Integrated Systems (L-3/IS).

UNQUOTE

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Oswald just had to get that lie in about eating lunch AFTER having Baker draw his gun on him. Heaven forbid the truth got out that he ate lunch first! LOL

But even if Oswald had said he ate lunch before the assassination occurred, that too would have been a lie, of course, because LHO didn't eat lunch at all on 11/22. He was much too busy upstairs on the sixth floor.

 

Edited March 26 by David Von Pein