Hornberger Indicts LBJ

[Benjamin Cole]

I disagree with some of this, and tend to think LBJ was out of the loop, but it is well-presented, and Hornberger has been following the JFKA for many decades. 

https://www.fff.org/2024/04/29/lyndon-johnsons-role-in-the-jfk-assassination/

Lyndon Johnson’s Role in the JFK Assassination

by Jacob G. Hornberger

April 29,

Ever since the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a question has naturally arisen: What role, if any, did Vice-President Lyndon Johnson play in the assassination?

With the publication of Douglas P. Horne’s massive 5-volume book Inside the Assassination Records Review Board, the national-security establishment’s role in the assassination has now been established beyond a reasonable doubt. That’s because Horne meticulously detailed the fraud in the autopsy that the U.S. military carried out on Kennedy’s body on the very evening of the assassination. Horne served on the staff of the ARRB in the 1990s.

Examples of autopsy fraud set forth by Horne (which are summarized in my book The Kennedy Autopsy) include (1) sneaking JFK’s body into the Bethesda Naval morgue before the official start of the autopsy in order to perform pre-autopsy surgery designed to hide evidence of shots having been fired from Kennedy’s front and (2) two separate brain examinations, the second of which involved someone else’s brain rather than Kennedy’s. Horne’s findings have now been reinforced and built upon in a new book, The Final Analysis by David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D. and Jerome Corsi, Ph.D.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, there is no innocent explanation for a fraudulent autopsy. It necessarily means criminal culpability of the national-security establishment in the assassination itself. There is no way around that. That’s how we can definitively conclude that the JFK assassination was one of the national-security establishment’s patented regime-change operations based on what have become the two most important words in the American political lexicon — “national security.” See FFF’s book JFK’s War with the National Security Establishment: Why Kennedy Was Assassinated.”

But what about Johnson? Was he just an innocent beneficiary of the assassination? Actually not. The circumstantial evidence establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that Johnson himself was up to his neck in the assassination. Johnson had three primary roles in the assassination.

The first role was to get JFK’s body out of Dallas and deliver it into the hands of the military. Keep in mind that JFK’s murder was a state criminal offense. At that time, it was not a federal crime to assassinate a president. Therefore, no federal agency had any jurisdiction over the crime. That includes the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI.

Under Texas law, the Dallas County Medical Examiner, Dr. Earl Rose, was required to perform an autopsy on JFK’s body. Immediately after JFK was declared dead, Rose announced that he was going to perform the autopsy. A team of Secret Service agents immediately declared that no such autopsy would be permitted. Headed by a Secret Service agent named Roy Kellerman, who was brandishing a Thompson sub-machine gun, the Secret Service team began screaming, yelling, and cussing as they began forcing their way out of Parkland Hospital  with the president’s body, which had been placed in a heavy casket. Rose refused to give ground, insisting, correctly so, that Texas law required him to perform the autopsy before the body could be released. One Secret Service agent physically picked up Rose, carried him to a nearby wall, and wagged his finger in his face. The others pulled back their suit coats to brandish their guns, thereby threatening to use deadly force against anyone who got in their way.

Kellerman declared that he and his team were simply following orders. There is only one person who could have issued such an extraordinary order to Kellerman — Lyndon Johnson, either directly to Kellerman or indirectly through one of Kellerman’s superiors. Who else would have dared to issue an order that violated state criminal law?

In fact, Johnson’s own actions confirm that he was the person who issued the order. Once JFK was declared dead, Johnson headed to Love Field, where he ordered seats to be removed from the back of Air Force One to make room for the big casket in which JFK’s body had been placed. Johnson had absolutely no intention of waiting at Love Field for the 2-3 hours that would have been needed to complete the autopsy. He was removing those seats in the full expectation that the casket and the body would be arriving shortly. How would he know that? Because he had to have been the one who issued the order to Kellerman to get the body out of Parkland at all costs and deliver it to Johnson at Love Field.

The second role that Johnson had was to conjure up the prospect of World War III by suggesting that the assassination might be the first step in a nuclear attack on the United States by the Soviet Union. He first raised this possibility while he was waiting at Parkland Hospital for Kennedy to be declared dead. He raised it again on the way to Love Field.

Yet, when Johnson arrived at Love Field, his actions belied any such concern. Rather than get up in the air immediately in order to direct America’s defenses and counterattacks to a possible Soviet nuclear attack, he instead lollygagged at Love Field, waiting, first, for a federal judge to arrive and swear him in as president and, second, for JFK’s body to be delivered to him. In fact, JFK was declared dead at 1 p.m. and LBJ waited until 2:47 to take off. That was the action of a person who knew for certain that the assassination could not possibly have been the first stage of a Soviet nuclear attack on the United States. The only way that Johnson could have been so certain is that he knew that it was not the Soviets who committed the assassination.

Once Johnson arrived at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, he dutifully delivered JFK’s body into the hands of the military, notwithstanding the fact that the military had absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever to conduct such an autopsy.

It was not the last time that LBJ conjured up the possibility that the Soviets or the Cubans had assassinated JFK, however. When he began inducing people to join what became known as the Warren Commission, he once again conjured up the possibility that the assassination had been committed by the Soviet Union or Cuba. Why would he do that? Because that was the way that the plotters were able to get the investigation into the assassination shut down immediately — in order to ostensibly avoid World War III and all-out nuclear war that would come with it.

How did this ingenious strategy play out? As I detail in my book An Encounter with Evil: The Abraham Zapruder Story, the plot called for shots being fired from the front and the back. That would establish a conspiracy with the supposed communist, Lee Harvey Oswald, a U.S. intelligence agent who the national-security establishment was setting up to take the fall. The only people with whom Oswald would have been supposedly conspiring were the Soviet Union and Cuba. That was the purpose of setting up Oswald in New Orleans and Mexico City as a supposed communist agent.

Keep in mind that JFK and his brother RFK had initiated Operation Mongoose, whose aim was to oust Cuban leader Fidel Castro from power. Keep in mind also that the CIA had repeatedly tried to assassinate Castro. Thus, Johnson’s second role was to assert that the communists had gotten to JFK first and that if the United States responded to their assassination of JFK, World War III would occur. Therefore, the only way to obviate going to war based on what the Kennedy brothers had started was to immediately shut down the investigation and hide the fact that shots had been fired from the front.

The third role that LBJ had was to ensure that there would never be an official investigation that could lead to the national-security establishment, including, of course, with respect to the military’s fraudulent autopsy. That was the purpose of appointing former CIA Director Allen Dulles to the Warren Commission. Dulles, who Kennedy had fired after the Bay of Pigs disaster and who loathed Kennedy, ensured that the commission stayed on track with the official lone-nut narrative.

Finally, it should be noted that if JFK had not been assassinated, it was a virtual certainty that LBJ would have been removed from office, indicted, and convicted for political corruption. In fact, it is also a virtual certainty that Johnson knew that Robert Kennedy, the attorney general, who loathed Johnson, was furnishing evidence of Johnson’s corruption to LIFE magazine. Thus, LBJ, who had a lifelong obsession to become president, had a choice: Go to jail or participate in the assassination of JFK and become president. He chose the latter course of action and, after being elected president in the 1964 election, gave the U.S. national-security establishment what Kennedy had refused to do–its war in Vietnam.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I disagree with some of this, and tend to think LBJ was out of the loop, but it is well-presented, and Hornberger has been following the JFKA for many decades. 

https://www.fff.org/2024/04/29/lyndon-johnsons-role-in-the-jfk-assassination/

Lyndon Johnson’s Role in the JFK Assassination

by Jacob G. Hornberger

April 29,

Ever since the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a question has naturally arisen: What role, if any, did Vice-President Lyndon Johnson play in the assassination?

With the publication of Douglas P. Horne’s massive 5-volume book Inside the Assassination Records Review Board, the national-security establishment’s role in the assassination has now been established beyond a reasonable doubt. That’s because Horne meticulously detailed the fraud in the autopsy that the U.S. military carried out on Kennedy’s body on the very evening of the assassination. Horne served on the staff of the ARRB in the 1990s.

Examples of autopsy fraud set forth by Horne (which are summarized in my book The Kennedy Autopsy) include (1) sneaking JFK’s body into the Bethesda Naval morgue before the official start of the autopsy in order to perform pre-autopsy surgery designed to hide evidence of shots having been fired from Kennedy’s front and (2) two separate brain examinations, the second of which involved someone else’s brain rather than Kennedy’s. Horne’s findings have now been reinforced and built upon in a new book, The Final Analysis by David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D. and Jerome Corsi, Ph.D.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, there is no innocent explanation for a fraudulent autopsy. It necessarily means criminal culpability of the national-security establishment in the assassination itself. There is no way around that. That’s how we can definitively conclude that the JFK assassination was one of the national-security establishment’s patented regime-change operations based on what have become the two most important words in the American political lexicon — “national security.” See FFF’s book JFK’s War with the National Security Establishment: Why Kennedy Was Assassinated.”

But what about Johnson? Was he just an innocent beneficiary of the assassination? Actually not. The circumstantial evidence establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that Johnson himself was up to his neck in the assassination. Johnson had three primary roles in the assassination.

The first role was to get JFK’s body out of Dallas and deliver it into the hands of the military. Keep in mind that JFK’s murder was a state criminal offense. At that time, it was not a federal crime to assassinate a president. Therefore, no federal agency had any jurisdiction over the crime. That includes the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI.

Under Texas law, the Dallas County Medical Examiner, Dr. Earl Rose, was required to perform an autopsy on JFK’s body. Immediately after JFK was declared dead, Rose announced that he was going to perform the autopsy. A team of Secret Service agents immediately declared that no such autopsy would be permitted. Headed by a Secret Service agent named Roy Kellerman, who was brandishing a Thompson sub-machine gun, the Secret Service team began screaming, yelling, and cussing as they began forcing their way out of Parkland Hospital  with the president’s body, which had been placed in a heavy casket. Rose refused to give ground, insisting, correctly so, that Texas law required him to perform the autopsy before the body could be released. One Secret Service agent physically picked up Rose, carried him to a nearby wall, and wagged his finger in his face. The others pulled back their suit coats to brandish their guns, thereby threatening to use deadly force against anyone who got in their way.

Kellerman declared that he and his team were simply following orders. There is only one person who could have issued such an extraordinary order to Kellerman — Lyndon Johnson, either directly to Kellerman or indirectly through one of Kellerman’s superiors. Who else would have dared to issue an order that violated state criminal law?

In fact, Johnson’s own actions confirm that he was the person who issued the order. Once JFK was declared dead, Johnson headed to Love Field, where he ordered seats to be removed from the back of Air Force One to make room for the big casket in which JFK’s body had been placed. Johnson had absolutely no intention of waiting at Love Field for the 2-3 hours that would have been needed to complete the autopsy. He was removing those seats in the full expectation that the casket and the body would be arriving shortly. How would he know that? Because he had to have been the one who issued the order to Kellerman to get the body out of Parkland at all costs and deliver it to Johnson at Love Field.

The second role that Johnson had was to conjure up the prospect of World War III by suggesting that the assassination might be the first step in a nuclear attack on the United States by the Soviet Union. He first raised this possibility while he was waiting at Parkland Hospital for Kennedy to be declared dead. He raised it again on the way to Love Field.

Yet, when Johnson arrived at Love Field, his actions belied any such concern. Rather than get up in the air immediately in order to direct America’s defenses and counterattacks to a possible Soviet nuclear attack, he instead lollygagged at Love Field, waiting, first, for a federal judge to arrive and swear him in as president and, second, for JFK’s body to be delivered to him. In fact, JFK was declared dead at 1 p.m. and LBJ waited until 2:47 to take off. That was the action of a person who knew for certain that the assassination could not possibly have been the first stage of a Soviet nuclear attack on the United States. The only way that Johnson could have been so certain is that he knew that it was not the Soviets who committed the assassination.

Once Johnson arrived at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, he dutifully delivered JFK’s body into the hands of the military, notwithstanding the fact that the military had absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever to conduct such an autopsy.

It was not the last time that LBJ conjured up the possibility that the Soviets or the Cubans had assassinated JFK, however. When he began inducing people to join what became known as the Warren Commission, he once again conjured up the possibility that the assassination had been committed by the Soviet Union or Cuba. Why would he do that? Because that was the way that the plotters were able to get the investigation into the assassination shut down immediately — in order to ostensibly avoid World War III and all-out nuclear war that would come with it.

How did this ingenious strategy play out? As I detail in my book An Encounter with Evil: The Abraham Zapruder Story, the plot called for shots being fired from the front and the back. That would establish a conspiracy with the supposed communist, Lee Harvey Oswald, a U.S. intelligence agent who the national-security establishment was setting up to take the fall. The only people with whom Oswald would have been supposedly conspiring were the Soviet Union and Cuba. That was the purpose of setting up Oswald in New Orleans and Mexico City as a supposed communist agent.

Keep in mind that JFK and his brother RFK had initiated Operation Mongoose, whose aim was to oust Cuban leader Fidel Castro from power. Keep in mind also that the CIA had repeatedly tried to assassinate Castro. Thus, Johnson’s second role was to assert that the communists had gotten to JFK first and that if the United States responded to their assassination of JFK, World War III would occur. Therefore, the only way to obviate going to war based on what the Kennedy brothers had started was to immediately shut down the investigation and hide the fact that shots had been fired from the front.

The third role that LBJ had was to ensure that there would never be an official investigation that could lead to the national-security establishment, including, of course, with respect to the military’s fraudulent autopsy. That was the purpose of appointing former CIA Director Allen Dulles to the Warren Commission. Dulles, who Kennedy had fired after the Bay of Pigs disaster and who loathed Kennedy, ensured that the commission stayed on track with the official lone-nut narrative.

Finally, it should be noted that if JFK had not been assassinated, it was a virtual certainty that LBJ would have been removed from office, indicted, and convicted for political corruption. In fact, it is also a virtual certainty that Johnson knew that Robert Kennedy, the attorney general, who loathed Johnson, was furnishing evidence of Johnson’s corruption to LIFE magazine. Thus, LBJ, who had a lifelong obsession to become president, had a choice: Go to jail or participate in the assassination of JFK and become president. He chose the latter course of action and, after being elected president in the 1964 election, gave the U.S. national-security establishment what Kennedy had refused to do–its war in Vietnam.

Isn't this exactly what Robert Morrow has been presenting for years?

[Roger Odisio]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I disagree with some of this, and tend to think LBJ was out of the loop, but it is well-presented, and Hornberger has been following the JFKA for many decades. 

https://www.fff.org/2024/04/29/lyndon-johnsons-role-in-the-jfk-assassination/

Lyndon Johnson’s Role in the JFK Assassination

by Jacob G. Hornberger

April 29,

Ever since the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a question has naturally arisen: What role, if any, did Vice-President Lyndon Johnson play in the assassination?

With the publication of Douglas P. Horne’s massive 5-volume book Inside the Assassination Records Review Board, the national-security establishment’s role in the assassination has now been established beyond a reasonable doubt. That’s because Horne meticulously detailed the fraud in the autopsy that the U.S. military carried out on Kennedy’s body on the very evening of the assassination. Horne served on the staff of the ARRB in the 1990s.

Examples of autopsy fraud set forth by Horne (which are summarized in my book The Kennedy Autopsy) include (1) sneaking JFK’s body into the Bethesda Naval morgue before the official start of the autopsy in order to perform pre-autopsy surgery designed to hide evidence of shots having been fired from Kennedy’s front and (2) two separate brain examinations, the second of which involved someone else’s brain rather than Kennedy’s. Horne’s findings have now been reinforced and built upon in a new book, The Final Analysis by David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D. and Jerome Corsi, Ph.D.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, there is no innocent explanation for a fraudulent autopsy. It necessarily means criminal culpability of the national-security establishment in the assassination itself. There is no way around that. That’s how we can definitively conclude that the JFK assassination was one of the national-security establishment’s patented regime-change operations based on what have become the two most important words in the American political lexicon — “national security.” See FFF’s book JFK’s War with the National Security Establishment: Why Kennedy Was Assassinated.”

But what about Johnson? Was he just an innocent beneficiary of the assassination? Actually not. The circumstantial evidence establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that Johnson himself was up to his neck in the assassination. Johnson had three primary roles in the assassination.

The first role was to get JFK’s body out of Dallas and deliver it into the hands of the military. Keep in mind that JFK’s murder was a state criminal offense. At that time, it was not a federal crime to assassinate a president. Therefore, no federal agency had any jurisdiction over the crime. That includes the Pentagon, the CIA, and the FBI.

Under Texas law, the Dallas County Medical Examiner, Dr. Earl Rose, was required to perform an autopsy on JFK’s body. Immediately after JFK was declared dead, Rose announced that he was going to perform the autopsy. A team of Secret Service agents immediately declared that no such autopsy would be permitted. Headed by a Secret Service agent named Roy Kellerman, who was brandishing a Thompson sub-machine gun, the Secret Service team began screaming, yelling, and cussing as they began forcing their way out of Parkland Hospital  with the president’s body, which had been placed in a heavy casket. Rose refused to give ground, insisting, correctly so, that Texas law required him to perform the autopsy before the body could be released. One Secret Service agent physically picked up Rose, carried him to a nearby wall, and wagged his finger in his face. The others pulled back their suit coats to brandish their guns, thereby threatening to use deadly force against anyone who got in their way.

Kellerman declared that he and his team were simply following orders. There is only one person who could have issued such an extraordinary order to Kellerman — Lyndon Johnson, either directly to Kellerman or indirectly through one of Kellerman’s superiors. Who else would have dared to issue an order that violated state criminal law?

In fact, Johnson’s own actions confirm that he was the person who issued the order. Once JFK was declared dead, Johnson headed to Love Field, where he ordered seats to be removed from the back of Air Force One to make room for the big casket in which JFK’s body had been placed. Johnson had absolutely no intention of waiting at Love Field for the 2-3 hours that would have been needed to complete the autopsy. He was removing those seats in the full expectation that the casket and the body would be arriving shortly. How would he know that? Because he had to have been the one who issued the order to Kellerman to get the body out of Parkland at all costs and deliver it to Johnson at Love Field.

The second role that Johnson had was to conjure up the prospect of World War III by suggesting that the assassination might be the first step in a nuclear attack on the United States by the Soviet Union. He first raised this possibility while he was waiting at Parkland Hospital for Kennedy to be declared dead. He raised it again on the way to Love Field.

Yet, when Johnson arrived at Love Field, his actions belied any such concern. Rather than get up in the air immediately in order to direct America’s defenses and counterattacks to a possible Soviet nuclear attack, he instead lollygagged at Love Field, waiting, first, for a federal judge to arrive and swear him in as president and, second, for JFK’s body to be delivered to him. In fact, JFK was declared dead at 1 p.m. and LBJ waited until 2:47 to take off. That was the action of a person who knew for certain that the assassination could not possibly have been the first stage of a Soviet nuclear attack on the United States. The only way that Johnson could have been so certain is that he knew that it was not the Soviets who committed the assassination.

Once Johnson arrived at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, he dutifully delivered JFK’s body into the hands of the military, notwithstanding the fact that the military had absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever to conduct such an autopsy.

It was not the last time that LBJ conjured up the possibility that the Soviets or the Cubans had assassinated JFK, however. When he began inducing people to join what became known as the Warren Commission, he once again conjured up the possibility that the assassination had been committed by the Soviet Union or Cuba. Why would he do that? Because that was the way that the plotters were able to get the investigation into the assassination shut down immediately — in order to ostensibly avoid World War III and all-out nuclear war that would come with it.

How did this ingenious strategy play out? As I detail in my book An Encounter with Evil: The Abraham Zapruder Story, the plot called for shots being fired from the front and the back. That would establish a conspiracy with the supposed communist, Lee Harvey Oswald, a U.S. intelligence agent who the national-security establishment was setting up to take the fall. The only people with whom Oswald would have been supposedly conspiring were the Soviet Union and Cuba. That was the purpose of setting up Oswald in New Orleans and Mexico City as a supposed communist agent.

Keep in mind that JFK and his brother RFK had initiated Operation Mongoose, whose aim was to oust Cuban leader Fidel Castro from power. Keep in mind also that the CIA had repeatedly tried to assassinate Castro. Thus, Johnson’s second role was to assert that the communists had gotten to JFK first and that if the United States responded to their assassination of JFK, World War III would occur. Therefore, the only way to obviate going to war based on what the Kennedy brothers had started was to immediately shut down the investigation and hide the fact that shots had been fired from the front.

The third role that LBJ had was to ensure that there would never be an official investigation that could lead to the national-security establishment, including, of course, with respect to the military’s fraudulent autopsy. That was the purpose of appointing former CIA Director Allen Dulles to the Warren Commission. Dulles, who Kennedy had fired after the Bay of Pigs disaster and who loathed Kennedy, ensured that the commission stayed on track with the official lone-nut narrative.

Finally, it should be noted that if JFK had not been assassinated, it was a virtual certainty that LBJ would have been removed from office, indicted, and convicted for political corruption. In fact, it is also a virtual certainty that Johnson knew that Robert Kennedy, the attorney general, who loathed Johnson, was furnishing evidence of Johnson’s corruption to LIFE magazine. Thus, LBJ, who had a lifelong obsession to become president, had a choice: Go to jail or participate in the assassination of JFK and become president. He chose the latter course of action and, after being elected president in the 1964 election, gave the U.S. national-security establishment what Kennedy had refused to do–its war in Vietnam.

I'm not sure, Ben, what part you disagree with or why you think Johnson was out of the loop (would you care to elaborate?) but Hornberger nails many key points.

I would add a few things. Johnson's order to snatch the body from Dr. Rose was verified by Jack Valenti, who was sitting next to Johnson on AF1 at the time, in his book  defending Johnson, A very Human President.  He says the order was the first of Johnson's new presidency, "and a good one".

I don't know about the accuracy of the account of the struggle in the hallway with Rose, but Hornberger makes the key point.  It was likely settled by the statement Rose couldn't object to: we have orders from the President. 

Horne was also essential to uncovering the alteration of the Z film and the concurrent destruction of the original, another crucial part of the coverup of evidence.

[Benjamin Cole]

17 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Isn't this exactly what Robert Morrow has been presenting for years?

Very close versions of the JFKA and the perps, I would say. 

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I'm not sure, Ben, what part you disagree with or why you think Johnson was out of the loop (would you care to elaborate?) but Hornberger nails many key points.

I would add a few things. Johnson's order to snatch the body from Dr. Rose was verified by Jack Valenti, who was sitting next to Johnson on AF1 at the time, in his book  defending Johnson, A very Human President.  He says the order was the first of Johnson's new presidency, "and a good one".

I don't know about the accuracy of the account of the struggle in the hallway with Rose, but Hornberger makes the key point.  It was likely settled by the statement Rose couldn't object to: we have orders from the President. 

Horne was also essential to uncovering the alteration of the Z film and the concurrent destruction of the original, another crucial part of the coverup of evidence.

RO-

My take is more along the lines of a very small group of witting pre-JFKA operatives, perhaps just two or three, all CIA assets, as was LHO.

I don't see much of a LBJ-LHO-Cuban exiles nexus. 

Just my IMHO. 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

You know, I think Jacob posted this due to this debate going on when I posted my review of Under Cover of Night.

Let us take them one by one.  The idea that somehow LBJ forced the cadaver out of the hospital so there would not be an autopsy struck me as odd.  Since i had never seen that particular charge before.  So I went back to what should be the two best sources on this, namely Manchester and Bishop. Those two men wrote books based on many sources and interviews nearest to the time of the crime.  They were hour by hour, sometimes minute by minute chronicles.  

The man who wanted to get LBJ out of Dallas was Rufus Youngblood, and secondarily Roberts. (Manchester, pp 232-34; Bishop p. 245) Nobody knew at that time how extensive the plot was. Recall, the Lincoln assassination had at least three targets.  Youngblood also was the one who urged LBJ to get out of the hospital once Kennedy was dead. And, in fact, since JFK was dead, the Secret Service should have gone with Johnson. (ibid, p. 289) Because as Manchester notes, once JFK was dead, Jackie was not technically the First Lady and was not entitled to Secret Service, bodyguards or aides.

And actually, O'Donnell and Powers and O'Brien had no standing either.  

When Kilduff told LBJ that Kennedy was now dead, this is why Johnson told him that the Secret Service wanted him to leave.  In fact, they had sent agents out to guard his daughters, that is how palpable the sense of a wide ranging plot was. (Bishop, p. 250) Another indication is this: LBJ also told Kilduff to wait until he was gone before he addressed the press. (Bishop, p. 248). Johnson told Kilduff he would wait for Jackie. (Bishop p. 250)

It was Jackie Kennedy who said to O'Donnell, Powers and the Secret Service, "I'm not going to leave her without Jack."  She actually said this three times at different intervals. O'Donnell ordered a casket after the first time she said it.. (Manchester, p. 289) Clint Hill then picked out a casket at O"Neals. (ibid, p. 292) When they brought it back, Jackie looked at it.  O'Donnell then said, "We must get her out of here." (Bishop, p. 268) The body was loaded into the casket with Jackie watching.   Meanwhile the Pentagon calls Dallas and asks "Who is in charge?" Obviously worried about a big attack and what a response would be. (Bishop p. 272). LBJ calls the AG about taking the oath. (ibid.)

Kellerman is waiting for the death certificate from Clark so he can get the casket out to Air Force One ASAP. (Bishop p. 284) When he gets it the big confrontation with Earl Rose takes place. Manchester has a really good description of this.  No one in the Kennedy camp would listen to Rose, and this included Burkley.  O'Donnell was almost as vociferous in this as Kellerman. (Bishop p. 286, Manchester, p. 304). O'Donnell said, "I was in a panic to get out of there, that little lady just couldn't stand there with her husband's body that long." (Manchester, p. 306).   In fact, it was O'Donnell who gave the order to Kellerman to run over Rose. (Bishop, p. 286). Which they did.

Once they were out, Kellerman called AIr Force 1 and said they were on the way, as did O'Donnell. (Bishop p. 299) Kellerman described their vehicles and said once they were inside, to lock the gates. O'Donnell said to take off once they were on board. But Sarah Hughes was not there yet so they waited for her and Jackie for LBJ to take the oath. (Bishop, pp. 299-300). O'Donnell dreaded waiting since he thought Rose would follow them with a police detachment. (Bishop p. 306). AF One left at 2:47 PM

In about 75 pages of detail, I could find no order that Johnson demanded that Kennedy's corpse be taken out of the hospital over any objections by Jackie or Rose.  What happened is that Youngblood and Roberts wanted LBJ out of Dallas, as did the people in Washington. There really was a fear of a continuing plot. Once Youngblood made that decision then it was just a matter of waiting for Jackie.  And the decision to take the body out was clearly by JFK's assistants and the top level of the Secret Service.  

If someone can show me where this is wrong or something is missing, go ahead.  But please, unlike Hornberger, and Fetter, footnote your reply properly.

Edited May 1 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Crane]

Minimum should be arrested for accessory after the fact.

[Roger Odisio]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RO-

My take is more along the lines of a very small group of witting pre-JFKA operatives, perhaps just two or three, all CIA assets, as was LHO.

I don't see much of a LBJ-LHO-Cuban exiles nexus. 

Just my IMHO. 

 

 

I didn't ask you to say again what your take is, but rather what did you disagree with that Hornberger said that underlies your different take.   I found little or nothing to disagree with him about. 

[Roger Odisio]

10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

You know, I think Jacob posted this due to this debate going on when I posted my review of Under Cover of Night.

Let us take them one by one.  The idea that somehow LBJ forced the cadaver out of the hospital so there would not be an autopsy struck me as odd.  Since i had never seen that particular charge before.  So I went back to what should be the two best sources on this, namely Manchester and Bishop. Those two men wrote books based on many sources and interviews nearest to the time of the crime.  They were hour by hour, sometimes minute by minute chronicles.  

The man who wanted to get LBJ out of Dallas was Rufus Youngblood, and secondarily Roberts. (Manchester, pp 232-34; Bishop p. 245) Nobody knew at that time how extensive the plot was. Recall, the Lincoln assassination had at least three targets.  Youngblood also was the one who urged LBJ to get out of the hospital once Kennedy was dead. And, in fact, since JFK was dead, the Secret Service should have gone with Johnson. (ibid, p. 289) Because as Manchester notes, once JFK was dead, Jackie was not technically the First Lady and was not entitled to Secret Service, bodyguards or aides.

And actually, O'Donnell and Powers and O'Brien had no standing either.  

When Kilduff told LBJ that Kennedy was now dead, this is why Johnson told him that the Secret Service wanted him to leave.  In fact, they had sent agents out to guard his daughters, that is how palpable the sense of a wide ranging plot was. (Bishop, p. 250) Another indication is this: LBJ also told Kilduff to wait until he was gone before he addressed the press. (Bishop, p. 248). Johnson told Kilduff he would wait for Jackie. (Bishop p. 250)

It was Jackie Kennedy who said to O'Donnell, Powers and the Secret Service, "I'm not going to leave her without Jack."  She actually said this three times at different intervals. O'Donnell ordered a casket after the first time she said it.. (Manchester, p. 289) Clint Hill then picked out a casket at O"Neals. (ibid, p. 292) When they brought it back, Jackie looked at it.  O'Donnell then said, "We must get her out of here." (Bishop, p. 268) The body was loaded into the casket with Jackie watching.   Meanwhile the Pentagon calls Dallas and asks "Who is in charge?" Obviously worried about a big attack and what a response would be. (Bishop p. 272). LBJ calls the AG about taking the oath. (ibid.)

Kellerman is waiting for the death certificate from Clark so he can get the casket out to Air Force One ASAP. (Bishop p. 284) When he gets it the big confrontation with Earl Rose takes place. Manchester has a really good description of this.  No one in the Kennedy camp would listen to Rose, and this included Burkley.  O'Donnell was almost as vociferous in this as Kellerman. (Bishop p. 286, Manchester, p. 304). O'Donnell said, "I was in a panic to get out of there, that little lady just couldn't stand there with her husband's body that long." (Manchester, p. 306).   In fact, it was O'Donnell who gave the order to Kellerman to run over Rose. (Bishop, p. 286). Which they did.

Once they were out, Kellerman called AIr Force 1 and said they were on the way, as did O'Donnell. (Bishop p. 299) Kellerman described their vehicles and said once they were inside, to lock the gates. O'Donnell said to take off once they were on board. But Sarah Hughes was not there yet so they waited for her and Jackie for LBJ to take the oath. (Bishop, pp. 299-300). O'Donnell dreaded waiting since he thought Rose would follow them with a police detachment. (Bishop p. 306). AF One left at 2:47 PM

In about 75 pages of detail, I could find no order that Johnson demanded that Kennedy's corpse be taken out of the hospital over any objections by Jackie or Rose.  What happened is that Youngblood and Roberts wanted LBJ out of Dallas, as did the people in Washington. There really was a fear of a continuing plot. Once Youngblood made that decision then it was just a matter of waiting for Jackie.  And the decision to take the body out was clearly by JFK's assistants and the top level of the Secret Service.  

If someone can show me where this is wrong or something is missing, go ahead.  But please, unlike Hornberger, and Fetter, footnote your reply properly.

Actually, Jim, the best source for the fact that Johnson ordered the body to be brought to him on the plane is Jack Valenti, a close aide, as you know, who was sitting next to Johnson when he says Johnson gave the order.  Valenti called it Johnson's first decision as president, and "a good one".  That's in Valenti's book defending Johnson, A Very Human President, 1975.  Valenti was certainly not trying to bash or incriminate Johnson.  While has waiting for the body Johnson ordered some seats removed to make room for it.

The first time I heard of Valenti's revelation was from Pat Speer here a few months ago, citing the Valenti book. 

No one I know of claims Jackie objected to the body being sent to the plane for transporting it to Washington.  She simply made clear she was not going to be separated from it. Johnson probably knew that, or was told that, and taking the body also gave him the opportunity to have her come to the plane  as well. He wanted her present for the photo of the swearing in ceremony we have all seen.  A symbol of continuity.

Rose as a different story.  He had jurisdiction over the autopsy. He did object, apparently strenuously, to Johnson taking the body. There may have been as scuffle in the hallway. But I think the words "we have an order from the president" by the security detail now working for Johnson would have ended any real resistance.

[James DiEugenio]

Can you show me that Roger? 

 Who received it?  Because in neither book, and both were written at the time period, is that acknowledged.

As per Rose, in neither rendition is Johnson's name invoked.  And Manchester spends several pages on this.

Edited May 1 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Let us go to number two.

As demonstrated above the idea of a wider ranging plot was the Secret Service's idea specifically Youngblood, Roberts and also Kivett.  This is why they sent agents to guard his kids.  Kivett actually thought they were going to shoot Johnson in the hospital. Which is one reason they wanted him out of there.

The reason for the delay at the airfield was that no one knew if LBJ was the president yet. If he was not, then how could he order a counterattack if the Pentagon called him?  In fact, McNamara actually thought he was running that aspect.  Sarah Hughes was not in when they called her.  They had to locate her.  

Hornberger's third one, well Gibson dealt with that at length. The Commission was not Johnson's idea, plain and simple.  He resisted it.

As per Allen Dulles, he lobbied to get on the Commission, as proven by David Talbot.  The only guy to do that.

Edited May 1 by James DiEugenio

[Roger Odisio]

12 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can you show me that Roger? 

 Who received it?  Because in neither book, and both wewre written at the time period, is that acknowledged.

As per Rose, in neither rendition is Johnson's name invoked.  And Manchester spends several pages on this.

 

15 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can you show me that Roger? 

 Who received it?  Because in neither book, and both wewre written at the time period, is that acknowledged.

As per Rose, in neither rendition is Johnson's name invoked.  And Manchester spends several pages on this.

Are you really claiming Manchester and Bishop are God's final word on what happened?  If they didn't know about it, it didn't happen?

Johnson's order was received by the security detail that by then worked for him.  Valenti says he was sitting next to Johnson on the plane when he gave the order. I don't have Valenti's book which is a relatively mindless puff piece for Johnson.  I am depending on Pat Speer's research for what the book says. If you think Pat might be mistaken, you might want to take it up with him. You haven't given me any reason to doubt him.

I will say this. Johnson had plenty of time between when Kennedy was declared dead and the body left Parkland for the plane, to have communicated his order to his security staff to take the body.  As I understand it, he had something like half an hour at Parkland with his detail, after the death was declared, before he left for the plane.  Believe it or not, some believe Kennedy died instantly from the head shots and it is possible Johnson was confident he was president before the official announcement of JFK's death. Maybe he gave a provisional order and then what Valenti heard was him following it up once he was on the plane. It's clear that Valenti was confident enough in what he heard that he published it in his book defending Johnson. 

The security detail did not have the authority on its own to snatch the body.  Only Johnson could have given the order.

 

 

[Kevin Balch]

Why would Johnson give up the presidency so easily after scheming so much to get it?

Who beside Johnson, benefitted from his presidency?

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I didn't ask you to say again what your take is, but rather what did you disagree with that Hornberger said that underlies your different take.   I found little or nothing to disagree with him about. 

RO-

So many of these versions of the JFKA are compelling (including mine) but fall apart in the last mile. 

LBJ is certainly a suspect, but then even more so is the Miami Station of the CIA. Or Marcello, or WASP globalists, or former Nazis, Russians or the Cuban government. Israelis, and the Mormon mafia. 

Some people, such as Vincent Salandria, try to wave this all away and say, "Oh we know the globalist-elite national security state did the JFKA, and the question is why?"  And then we get the Vietnam-globalism-imperialism explanation. 

Much of LBJ's actions in the immediate post-JFKA hub-bub appeared influenced by CIA, including the World War III virus. LBJ certainly got the US into Vietnam in force, something JFK would have avoided, IMHO. Curiously, Cuba dropped off the map after the JFKA. 

Would you vote to convict LBJ of murder, put him in the electric chair, if you sat on a jury? I could not. 

LBJ, and many other people, should have been mercilessly grilled and cross-examined, and investigated and re-investigated, wiretapped and everything else back in 1963-4. 

[Kevin Balch]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Curiously, Cuba dropped off the map after the JFKA. 

If any Cubans benefitted from this, it was the pro-Castro Cubans. That doesn’t necessarily mean Fidel Castro was behind it. It could have been Raul Castro or elements within Cuban intelligence.

There were definite attempts at back-channel negotiations between the Kennedy administration and Castro. However, JFK still made less than conciliatory remarks at the same time. The sabotage and assassination plots continued prompting Castro’s warning of retaliation in September, 1963.

Lisa Howard was one of the intermediaries used in the back channel discussions. Why did she turn so strongly anti-RFK and endorse Kenneth Keating (who initially made claims that the Soviets were placing missiles in Cuba) in the 1964 NY senate election?

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/09/29/archives/democrats-form-a-keating-group-120-liberals-say-kennedy-is-using.html

It’s widely believed that the Kennedys saved us from Operation Northwood. However, in the secret EXCOM tapes made during the Cuban Missile Crisis, they were attempting to justify a preemptive strike to take out the anti-aircraft defenses and the IRBMs. RFK himself proposed a sinking of a US ship in Guantanamo Bay even calling it a “Remember the Maine” event. I don’t believe JFK was in the room at the time. How much of Operation Northwood was regurgitating what RFK wanted to hear?

Edited May 2 by Kevin Balch