Greatest challenge to conspiracy side; greatest challenge to lone-nut side

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Unless you believe the mortician about the difficulty of getting the ink off his hands. 

Maybe that was ink leftover from when LHO was fingerprinted extensively on Friday, 11/22. Why is that not a possible scenario?

Also See:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Was Oswald Fingerprinted After He Died?

 

Edited May 9 by David Von Pein

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:21 AM, Vince Palamara said:

Wagner believes the greatest challenge to those who believe there was NOT a conspiracy is the high-on-the-top-of-the-skull bullet fragment trail, as both alleged rear entrance locations on the skull do not explain it away.

I contend that the LEFT lateral X-ray was composited with the RIGHT lateral “living” X-ray to create the “enhanced” X-ray and make it appear as if the blow-out was at the right front instead of the right rear. (The White Patch was added to hide the facial features. If you look at the UNenhanced HSCA published X-ray, you can see the spinal column and mastoid processes, which were cropped out of the commonly used “enhanced” version because they were not visible in the “living” X-ray.) This makes the too-high fragment trail actually at the right location for a forehead entry.

[Michael Crane]

I wanna know why we don't see the metal head brace holding up JFK's head?

It's clearly showing in the autopsy photographs,and should be visable on the x-rays.

It's pretty clear from the witness's that a chalk block head brace was used.

Edited May 9 by Michael Crane

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:21 AM, Vince Palamara said:

Again, Wagner believes Oswald definitely fired shots and probably acted alone,

Well, I think so, too, if the addition of the accidental AR-15 shot can be considered as Oswald “acting alone.”

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:28 AM, Charles Blackmon said:

From what I recall (I do not have the greatest memory and I do not have any notes or quotes in front of me) there is no way a full metal jacket bullet could have caused the top of the skull bullet fragments. 

If the bullet fragmented (as I contend that this one did on impact), then the lead core would be exposed (although the core would have already been somewhat exposed at the base of the bullet). Don’t forget that the Connally bullet left fragments in his chest, wrist, and I believe the thigh also. 3-5 fragments, depending upon who you believe, plus some that were left in the body because it would have caused more damage to go dissecting for them than to leave them in. FMJ bullets can leave fragments—especially if they break apart after striking bone. Just not as many fragments as a bullet with an unjacketed head (dum-dum) or bullet without any jacketing.

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:49 AM, Bill Fite said:

So then the challenge to show a conspiracy is to link the front and rear shots somehow or show more than 1 person involved in 1 or both shot sources.

But a shot from the front and rear doesn’t necessarily mean a conspiracy to murder, especially if one of them was accidentally fired by a defender. I am convinced that there was a conspiracy to cover up, not to murder.

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:49 AM, Bill Fite said:

So then the challenge to show a conspiracy is to link the front and rear shots somehow or show more than 1 person involved in 1 or both shot sources.

But a shot from the front and rear doesn’t necessarily mean a conspiracy to murder, especially if one of them was accidentally fired by a defender. I am convinced that there was a conspiracy to cover up, not to murder.

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:49 AM, Bill Fite said:

So then the challenge to show a conspiracy is to link the front and rear shots somehow or show more than 1 person involved in 1 or both shot sources.

But a shot from the front and rear doesn’t necessarily mean a conspiracy to murder, especially if one of them was accidentally fired by a defender. I am convinced that there was a conspiracy to cover up, not to murder.

 

On 5/4/2024 at 1:06 PM, Joe Bauer said:

I always wondered why Oswald kept a pistol and bullets amongst his personal effects.

On the surface it appeared he didn't need one like 90+% of low income and working class people back then. A rifle was much more common due to the popularity of hunting.

There’s also the “ammo-sexual” feeling of power that many people have when they own a firearm, especially in the South and Red States, stoked by the NRA. Hence the “culture war” that prevents us from getting any kind of national gun control legislation despite all the school shootings and other mass shootings.

 

*Sorry for duplicating some of this. The “Post” button wasn’t registering my response properly.

Edited May 9 by Denise Hazelwood
Apologize for some duplication

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:06 PM, Joe Bauer said:

I always wondered why Oswald kept a pistol and bullets amongst his personal effects.

On the surface it appeared he didn't need one like 90+% of low income and working class people back then. A rifle was much more common due to the popularity of hunting.

Don’t forget that Oswald was from the South, which (due even before the NRA’s influence was already a big hunting area), and the whole “culture war” problems surrounding gun ownership (why we can’t get any decent gun control legislation even after all the mass shootings in this country), and the feeling of power that many people get just from owning firearms. In addition, Oswald was a marine, and IIRC received demerits for using his side arm when he should not have. Too many gun nuts in this country, and Oswald was one of them.

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:06 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Yet...raggedy torn shirt wearing, bus taking Oswald manages to defeat an Army of armed security all by himself and take out a President who they are surrounding in broad daylight with the cheapest and least accurate rifle available?

Simple luck?  

Too simple.

The police didn’t surround the building immediately. Reporters were rushing in to find phones and encountering Oswald on his way out immediately after the shooting. Sometimes dumb luck is all you need. Oswald got out before the building was secured.

[Denise Hazelwood]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:06 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Yet...raggedy torn shirt wearing, bus taking Oswald manages to defeat an Army of armed security all by himself and take out a President who they are surrounding in broad daylight with the cheapest and least accurate rifle available?

Simple luck?  

Too simple.

The police didn’t surround the building immediately. Reporters were rushing in to find phones and encountering Oswald on his way out immediately after the shooting. Sometimes dumb luck is all you need. Oswald got out before the building was secured.

 

On 5/6/2024 at 3:13 AM, Keven Hofeling said:

GOVERNOR CONNALLY: "We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye. and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I Immediately—the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt. So I looked, failing to see him. I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you. looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back..."

 

This, plus the version of the video that you posted makes it seem like CONNALLY (not JFK) was shot at Z313, which is what I have been saying. Mary Moorman believed that her picture was simultaneous with the FIRST shot, and that she heard 2 more shots afterwards (the next shot AFTER she took her photo being the one where she saw JFK’s “hair lift.”)

Can you please post the single Z313 image from your source? It seems different from the usual one that we’re used to seeing.

[Bill Fite]

2 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

But a shot from the front and rear doesn’t necessarily mean a conspiracy to murder, especially if one of them was accidentally fired by a defender. I am convinced that there was a conspiracy to cover up, not to murder.

The bullet fragment trail in the X-rays and the back and to the left movement indicate a fatal shot from the front in agreement with the Law of Conservation of Momentum. 

The photo of the bullet hole in the back means a shot from the back.

I  don't believe there was an accidental shot - there would be witnesses in the plaza who would have seen it.   However, even if there was it wouldn't matter as the film, autopsy photo and skull X-ray evidence indicate a shot from the front; it would just be an extra shot.  

[Denise Hazelwood]

6 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

The bullet fragment trail in the X-rays and the back and to the left movement indicate a fatal shot from the front in agreement with the Law of Conservation of Momentum. 

I agree that the trail is from a shot from the front, but there was some monkeying around with the X-rays.

 

8 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

The photo of the bullet hole in the back means a shot from the back.

Jerrol Custer testified that a “king size” bullet fragment fell out of the back during the autopsy when the body was lifted for X-rays. There was an early account based on a leaked FBI report that the back wound was caused by a bullet that ricocheted off some part of the limousine. 
 

13 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

I  don't believe there was an accidental shot - there would be witnesses in the plaza who would have seen it.   However, even if there was it wouldn't matter as the film, autopsy photo and skull X-ray evidence indicate a shot from the front; it would just be an extra shot.  

There were witnesses who smelled gun smoke at street level (impossible for the smell to have come from the TSBD window given the elevation and wind direction), witnesses who saw a SS man “fall over, like he was killed, too,” leading to early erroneous reporting that aSS agent was killed during the shooting, and reports of a “puff of smoke” hanging over the street immediately after the last shots. There is the Shanklin memo found by John Hunt that put “the gun that apparently killed the President” in the hands of the SS on the same day as the shooting (the Oswald weapon went from DPD to FBI without passing through the hands of the SS). You can believe what you like, but if you admit the possibility and consider the evidence, I think you will come to the conclusion that the AR-15 (prone to slam-fire discharge due to its too-heavy firing pin) was accidentally fired.

[Johnny Cairns]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Maybe that was ink leftover from when LHO was fingerprinted extensively on Friday, 11/22. Why is that not a possible scenario?

Also See:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Was Oswald Fingerprinted After He Died?

 

Mortician Paul Groody, who was in charge at Millers Funeral Home, was busy preparing Oswald’s remains for burial when agents arrived in the early hours of 11/25/63 to fingerprint the deceased Oswald.

Groody stated:” I had gotten to the funeral home with his body something in the neighbourhood of 11 o’clock at night and it is a several hour procedure to prepare the remains and after this time some-place in the early early morning agents came. Now I say agents because I am not familiar at this moment with whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what they were, but agents did come and when they did come, they fingerprinted and the only reason we knew that they did, they were carrying a satchel and the equipment and ask us if they might have the preparation room to themselves. And after it was all over, we found ink on Lee Harvey's hands showing that they had fingerprinted him, and palm printed him. We had to take that ink back off in order to prepare him for burial and to eliminate that ink”

[Bill Fite]

3 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

I agree that the trail is from a shot from the front, but there was some monkeying around with the X-rays.

 

Jerrol Custer testified that a “king size” bullet fragment fell out of the back during the autopsy when the body was lifted for X-rays. There was an early account based on a leaked FBI report that the back wound was caused by a bullet that ricocheted off some part of the limousine. 
 

There were witnesses who smelled gun smoke at street level (impossible for the smell to have come from the TSBD window given the elevation and wind direction), witnesses who saw a SS man “fall over, like he was killed, too,” leading to early erroneous reporting that aSS agent was killed during the shooting, and reports of a “puff of smoke” hanging over the street immediately after the last shots. There is the Shanklin memo found by John Hunt that put “the gun that apparently killed the President” in the hands of the SS on the same day as the shooting (the Oswald weapon went from DPD to FBI without passing through the hands of the SS). You can believe what you like, but if you admit the possibility and consider the evidence, I think you will come to the conclusion that the AR-15 (prone to slam-fire discharge due to its too-heavy firing pin) was accidentally fired.

Gun smoke could have come from the Grassy Knoll, the photo shows it farther down the road by the trees on the knoll.  Witnesses to the smoke put it behind the fence.

As far as I know, there are no witnesses to a shot being fired from SS car.  Do you have 1?

I fired AR15s with a pretty good cross section of soldiers during basic training - 160 of us in each session - draftees / enlistees / reservists / high school dropouts.   There were never accidental discharges.

I've considered the evidence, and first read about the accidental hypothesis way back in the 1970s in the Parade magazine Sunday supplement in the newspapers.

I'll go with the Principle of Parsimony - choose the hypothesis that fits all the evidence with the fewest assumptions.  An SS accidental shot straight to the head has too many other assumptions - and like I stated the evidence leads me to accepting one or more shots from locations both in the back and front.