Greatest challenge to conspiracy side; greatest challenge to lone-nut side

[Denise Hazelwood]

1 minute ago, Bill Fite said:

Gun smoke could have come from the Grassy Knoll, the photo shows it farther down the road by the trees on the knoll.  Witnesses to the smoke put it behind the fence.

The photo I think you are referring to is inconclusive, really. I don’t think anyone has a photo of the smoke that wasn’t confiscated by the SS. Witnessed mostly seemed to indicate that it was over the road, although some (like Sam Holland) thought that it was blowing out from under the trees. But the wind was actually blowing from the road TOWARDS the trees.

 

6 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

As far as I know, there are no witnesses to a shot being fired from SS car.  Do you have 1?

Of course there were no witnesses to a SS man from the car taking aim and firing, because the gun went off by accident. There were witnesses to a SS man falling over “like he was killed, too” (Sam Holland), early erroneous news accounts of a SS man being killed, too, at least one ear witness on top of the Triple Underpass who said that a shot sounded like it came “from right there, in the car,” Jean Hill who saw a flash of light and puff of smoke that looked to her like it might have come from the fence or knoll, Lee Bower on the other side of the fence who saw something similar but didn’t see a shooter on his side of the fence, police and newsmen and others who ran up the hill looking for a shooter and finding nothing—plenty of clues. But the shooter was in a car that immediately left the scene before people could put two and two together. Or if they did know, they kept their mouths shut for whatever reasons.

 

20 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

I fired AR15s with a pretty good cross section of soldiers during basic training - 160 of us in each session - draftees / enlistees / reservists / high school dropouts.   There were never accidental discharges.

The slam-fire flaw (too-heavy firing pin, not helped by the extremely sensitive ammunition primer) was in the process of being corrected at the time of the assassination and was probably fixed by the time you had basic. The AR-15 was taken out of the SS arsenal immediately after the assassination, before Chief Rowley’s WC testimony. Despite criticisms from other agencies, the SS did not again adopt assault style weapons until relatively recently (although they seemed more than happy to keep Thompson sub machine guns in their arsenal). The Shanklin memo uncovered by John Hunt (“The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet”—original article no longer on the JFK Lancer website, but I downloaded the memo image before it disappeared) puts the gun that fired the bullet “that apparently killed the President” in the hands of the SS on the same day as the assassination (the Oswald gun went directly from the DPD to the FBI without passing through the hands of the SS). Plenty of clues, but people just don’t want to believe it.

 

33 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

I've considered the evidence, and first read about the accidental hypothesis way back in the 1970s in the Parade magazine Sunday supplement in the newspapers.

I'll go with the Principle of Parsimony - choose the hypothesis that fits all the evidence with the fewest assumptions.  An SS accidental shot straight to the head has too many other assumptions - and like I stated the evidence leads me to accepting one or more shots from locations both in the back and front.

My scenario is different from Donahue’s original scenario. I contend that the Z-film and other evidence was altered, Oswald’s first shot was the frontal shot (so two head shots, one from the front, and the AR-15 shot from the rear), no Single Bullet Theory, more than 3 shots fired, the acoustical evidence was good (although it was run through Automatic Gain Control to hide the shot sounds originally recorded—Jackson was the “Knoll Rider” and had the “bike with the mic”), and other differences. Donahue was on the right  track with the AR-15 accident idea, but he got the details wrong because he was relying on false evidence (the Z-film) and other wrong information (the “cowlick” entrance). Watch my documentary series and see if you don’t agree with my scenario. https://www.a-benign-conspiracy.com/episodes.html

[Richard Bertolino]

1 hour ago, Bill Fite said:

Gun smoke could have come from the Grassy Knoll, the photo shows it farther down the road by the trees on the knoll.  Witnesses to the smoke put it behind the fence.

As far as I know, there are no witnesses to a shot being fired from SS car.  Do you have 1?

I fired AR15s with a pretty good cross section of soldiers during basic training - 160 of us in each session - draftees / enlistees / reservists / high school dropouts.   There were never accidental discharges.

I've considered the evidence, and first read about the accidental hypothesis way back in the 1970s in the Parade magazine Sunday supplement in the newspapers.

I'll go with the Principle of Parsimony - choose the hypothesis that fits all the evidence with the fewest assumptions.  An SS accidental shot straight to the head has too many other assumptions - and like I stated the evidence leads me to accepting one or more shots from locations both in the back and front.

Mr. Fite is quite polite. You'd think somebody would have seen that AR-15 murdering the president.

[Gene Kelly]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:20 PM, Vince Palamara said:

Good comments! Thanks everyone!

Vince

Oswald's movements on the 22nd (following the shooting) certainly seem controlled to me. The planting of the jacket and handgun shells. Jim Garrison decribed this as a "caravan" of people escorting Oswald to the Texas Theater.  The Tippit wallet - Croy and Westbrook -  ties him to the Hidell alias.  Then (as pointed out by Roger) none of Oswald's interviews are recorded and any notes (save for Hosty's) are destroyed. Finally, Fritz and company end the interrogations and bring Oswald down to his timely death at the hands of Ruby.  All of this prevented any alibi from being . 

Remember what Richard Case Nagell told Dick Russell "... make no mistake, Oswald was in it up to his neck."  Garrison "investigator" Richard Billing wrote about a gray suit-wearing "Spanish shepherd" whom Bringuier and his buddies noticed monitoring and taking photos of Oswald during the NOLA leaflet episode, and many credible witnesses who saw Oswald in the presence of this alleged escort in the Summer of ‘63. Participating in the Bringuier-leaflets incidents and appearing on  television was obvious sheep-dipping, which Oswald had to have understood, though its purpose may have been concealed from him. In the months prior, there is more compelling evidence of the control of Oswald's movements... here are just a few:

• On a Saturday morning in late September, two men arrived at Robert McKeown's house. One man introduced himself as Lee Oswald (his friend was called Hernandez). Oswald said he was willing to pay $10,000 for four rifles, 300 Savage automatics and a telescopic sight. McKeown refused as he thought he was being set-up
• September 25: Lee leaves New Orleans by bus where the Mexico City charade begins. He allegedly takes three separate bus trips: leaving Houston early on the morning of the 26th and arriving in Nuevo Laredo on the Mexican border that afternoon; leaving Nuevo Laredo an hour or so later and arriving in Mexico City on the 27th.
• Oswald registers at a hotel and makes his first visits to the Soviet and Cuban diplomatic compounds (where he was impersonated). Meanwhile, someone is laying the trail of an Oswald impostor going through north Louisiana.
• Silvia Odio receives a visit in Dallas on Friday September 27th; two individuals and Oswald. One named "Leopoldo" seeking written letters of recommendation and a companion Angelo sitting in the front passenger seat of the car. 
• September 20-23: Ruth visits the Oswalds, Marina decides to return with Ruth and leaves for Irving
• September 25, 1963: Oswald collects his unemployment check, catches a bus bound for Houston ... the next morning, he boards a bus for Laredo, Texas and crosses the border into Mexico in the early afternoon.
• Oswald returns to Dallas on October 4th (after an alleged failed attempt to go to Cuba or  the Soviet Union) 
• On the morning of October 14, Ruth and Marina have coffee at a neighbor’s house; Lee ends up at TSBD

Gene 

[Charles Blackmon]

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

And where's the proof that such a thing ever occurred?

You have no such proof, of course. But you'll state it as a fact nonetheless.

 

What were agents doing at the mortuary demanding privacy with the corpse and carrying bags of equipment? 

The palm print appeared out of thin air well after the FBI had received the rifle from DPD and saw no signs of a print. The person who provided the alleged lift (Lt. Day) claims he did not get around to comparing the print to Oswald's and finding a match until much later. Lt. Day failed to photograph the alleged print prior to making a lift, a violation of procedures, and had no good excuse for violating procedures. There are no photographs of the alleged palm print on the rifle. In 1984 FBI agent Drain said himself that the print must have been some kind of cushion. Pat Speer covers this in great detail at his website.

[Denise Hazelwood]

19 hours ago, Richard Bertolino said:

Mr. Fite is quite polite. You'd think somebody would have seen that AR-15 murdering the president.

Hickey wasn’t trying to murder the President. He wasn’t taking aim or doing anything to look like he was trying to kill the President. He was just trying to shoot back or scare off the TSBD shooter. I’ve got a newspaper account that says that SS agents were “returning fire” to the building, followed immediately by “the area reeked with the smell of gun smoke.” But then Hickey fell over, because the car stopped suddenly to avoid rear ending the President’s car, which had stopped, because Greer had “tapped the brake to check the tire” (per Clint Hill) and also to avoid running over Clint Hill. The sudden movement caused the gun to slam fire. It just happened to be pointed at JFK’s head at the time. But this was the second head shot, the first having come from Oswald as the first shot. The first shot was covered up because of the slow (hungover) SS response. The AR-15 shot was covered up for obvious reasons. The Z-film etc. were altered as part of the cover up. I’ve got newspaper and other accounts that the FIRST shot was a head shot, just recently adding Mrs. Charles Hester to my witnesses, thanks to Denis Morisette’s recently posted link to the Dallas Times Herald editor archives (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1M579IE0NLpX3Ry-PxP03r6GNGZp9HoRz —see #449)

 

[Denise Hazelwood]

18 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

The palm print appeared out of thin air well after the FBI had received the rifle from DPD and saw no signs of a print. The person who provided the alleged lift (Lt. Day) claims he did not get around to comparing the print to Oswald's and finding a match until much later. Lt. Day failed to photograph the alleged print prior to making a lift, a violation of procedures, and had no good excuse for violating procedures. There are no photographs of the alleged palm print on the rifle. In 1984 FBI agent Drain said himself that the print must have been some kind of cushion. Pat Speer covers this in great detail at his website.

A print is “lifted” in that the process removes the print from the original source and transfers it to the tape. That said, it remains questionable whether the palm print was genuine evidence or taken from Oswald’s dead hand. 

[Denise Hazelwood]

18 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

What were agents doing at the mortuary demanding privacy with the corpse and carrying bags of equipment? 

Source for this, please?

 

19 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

The person who provided the alleged lift (Lt. Day) claims he did not get around to comparing the print to Oswald's and finding a match until much later. Lt. Day failed to photograph the alleged print prior to making a lift, a violation of procedures, and had no good excuse for violating procedures.

So either Day was treating the most important case of his career with extreme carelessness, or he was willing to go along with the cover up. I don’t think he would have been “in” on any plan to cover up a planned Deep State murder of the President, but he may have been willing to go along with covering up an accidental shooting by another law-enforcement type of organization, especially if the alleged perpetrator of the original crime leading to that accident was already dead due to negligence on the part of his own LE agency. Dallas County was the site of one of the first Conviction Integrity Units in the country, so I have no doubt that the culture was already in place to fudge evidence.

[Johnny Cairns]

Hi Denise 

If you read between points 54-57 in my article Assassination 60, this should answer any questions you have over the veracity of the palm print and the question of the agents at Millers. 
 

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/part-6-of-6-sixth-floor-evidence

[Charles Blackmon]

3 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Source for this, please?

 

 

There you go. What is your source for a secret service agent accidentally blowing the head off JFK?

[Denise Hazelwood]

3 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

There you go. What is your source for a secret service agent accidentally blowing the head off JFK

Oswald’s mortician is certainly a good 1st person source. Do you have his name, date of interview, name of interviewer, YouTube link or other source info (e.g., Men Who Killed Kennedy, episode two, whatever)? All that good stuff that researchers like you have? If I refer to this in an article about the cover up, I will certainly credit you for pointing me towards it.

 

As for my “source” for a SSA accidentally shooting JFK in the head—that’s not a “source” but a conclusion. The evidence leading to that conclusion is presented in my 10-part documentary and on my website, which I invite you to watch and read. Go to https://www.a-benign-conspiracy.com/episodes.html for the YouTube links for the episodes and browse through the various articles on my website. The conclusion is based on the nose witness accounts (plus wind direction etc), accounts of the SSA falling over “like he was killed, too,” the AR-15 slam fire defect, the fact that it was removed from the SS arsenal immediately afterwards, and a bunch of other stuff—including the cover up. My first shot scenario is based on witness accounts from Alan Smith, Pierce Allman, Ruby Henderson, Warren Taylor, early Karen Westbrook, and recently adding Mrs. Charles Hester (not in my documentary but on my website in a lengthy in-progress article called “What Happened”). This shot is not apparent in the Z-film, because the film was altered as part of the cover up. My scenario and conclusions are different from Donahue’s, but Donahue was on the right track with the AR-15 accident idea. He just got the details wrong.

 The alternative conclusion, of course, is that all of the witnesses were “wrong” because the Z-film doesn’t show the scenario that I give, but if the Z-film was altered as part of the cover up (it was!) then…

[Charles Blackmon]

Thank you for referring to me as a researcher Denise. I don't really take on that mantle publicly but if I can help anyone else's understanding of the JFKA while enhancing my own then that should be a good thing.

The Youtube clip is from TMWKK but I don't know off-hand which episode.

 

[Denise Hazelwood]

Never mind, Kevin. You don’t have a version of the film that the rest of us don’t have access to. What you did was take out the utterly fake and extremely distracting Z313 “head shot” along with some of the equally distracting artificially blurred frames to demonstrate that it was CONNALLY, not Kennedy, who was hit at around Z313/Z314. THIS is what I’ve been saying for some time now, because Mary Moorman heard 2 more shots after she took her picture (the next one, or the first shot of the double bang, was when she saw JFK’s “hair lift” and she didn’t actually see JFK or anyone get hit, didn’t know JFK was hit until she saw him “slumped” in the picture), and the FBI “visual aid” model puts the “3rd” shot with the limousine further down Elm Street near the stairs.

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:54 AM, Charles Blackmon said:

The rifle palm print Lt. Day lifted off of Oswald's cold dead corpse.

Thats funny Charles.

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/8/2024 at 12:33 PM, Johnny Cairns said:

The palm print, in my opinion, is evidence that the Dallas Police were actively fabricating evidence against Oswald, whom by this point was dead at the time of its reveal. 

Yes.  But who at the DPD ordered this to happen and why.  Were they told to do it by someone up above, Hoover, CIA, SS?  As a cover our ass move?

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:44 AM, Johnny Cairns said:

 

Mortician Paul Groody, who was in charge at Millers Funeral Home, was busy preparing Oswald’s remains for burial when agents arrived in the early hours of 11/25/63 to fingerprint the deceased Oswald.

Groody stated:” I had gotten to the funeral home with his body something in the neighbourhood of 11 o’clock at night and it is a several hour procedure to prepare the remains and after this time some-place in the early early morning agents came. Now I say agents because I am not familiar at this moment with whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what they were, but agents did come and when they did come, they fingerprinted and the only reason we knew that they did, they were carrying a satchel and the equipment and ask us if they might have the preparation room to themselves. And after it was all over, we found ink on Lee Harvey's hands showing that they had fingerprinted him, and palm printed him. We had to take that ink back off in order to prepare him for burial and to eliminate that ink”

Thank you Johnny.  I know I've read this before somewhere, not sure of the source.  I thought the mortician complained about the difficulty of getting the ink off his hands, after his job was already (he thought) done.