Hancock, DiEugenio and Bleau interview

[David Boylan]

 

https://www.blackopradio.com/archives2024.html Scroll down to 1198.

Part B 39 minutes in.

[Ron Bulman]

Incredible. Flip a coin.  Jim and Larry or Larry and Jim conversing on important points convivially.  Progress in the JFKA.  I've got to re listen and take more notes.  

Harvey- Angleton close, for life.  Barnes- Eisenhower invasion of Cuba ok, turned down.  Surrogates.  What three to the gallows . . . means.  

[Ron Bulman]

This is solid gold.  If no one else listened to it or comments, I want to publicly thank all who participated in it, and David again for posting the link.  I know there are others on this forum who would find it interesting and informative, and I urge everyone to take the time to listen to it.  It will be time well spent imho.

A few things that caught my attention I didn't know about or learned more of.

I'd read Bissell had created Z R Rifle then it was delegated to Harvey, maybe that Harvey had asked Angleton for advice.  I didn't know Angleton bonded with Harvey, liked his ideas, lent him assistance as in contacts in Cuba, materials.  That this led to a rest of Harvey's life correspondence with Angleton, in his last month's mentioning "things that only we can talk about."  Then there was a failed break in after Harvey died to "steal his files" but his wife gave them to his biographer (Bayard Stockton, Flawed Patriot?*).  Angleton was known for breaking into Mary Meyer's studio in search of her diary, and, flying to Mexico immediately when Win Scott died to raid his safe.

The discussion about the differences in Pathfinder (Carl Jenkins), Z R Rifle (Bissell > Harvey), both assassination schemes, and Northwoods (Lansdale) was enlightening to say the least. 

At about 1:00 in the total program this was new to me, and eye opening in terms of Barnes possible involvement in the JFKA.  Late in his last year in office, it didn't mention before or after the election, Eisenhower called Tracy Barnes to his office in the white house.  He told him that if a false flag operation could be created to justify invasion of Cuba, that we would do so.  Barnes passed on the offer.  Wow.  Why?  I wonder if it was an immediate rejection.  Would Barnes do so without consulting first with Dulles or at least Angleton?  

Around 109:40 Regime change carried out by surrogates, an established CIA practice for deniability.  Revolutionaries or military, infiltrate them, bribe them, supply materials.

1:14 Persons of interest, the survey.  Three people on a gallows, Villans, subjective.  Those unknown to many, e.g. David Moore JMWave  (me).  Then about 1:30 ish, the Rodriguez family.  I'm still confused, need to listen to that part again.  Felix, Ernesto, Emillio.

Paul, Jim, and Len all mentioned maybe doing another show, I'm hoping Larry's down with that.

 

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Ron, certainly I'm up for another show with Jim.  Two things, first on Barnes, there is no doubt that he was capable of independent action and although its speculation, he may have actually proceeded with is own very compartmentalized false flag operation after Eisenhower was out of office. There are suggestions that he had a plan in place to stage an attack on Guantanamo - that plan aborted due to a disastrous accident with the explosives that had been smuggled though Guantanamo. That would have involved a separate Navy task group deployed off Cuba without JFK's knowledge.  Just traces of such a plan but I do discuss them in In Denial.

On the Rodriquez's,  Ernesto Sr and Jr in New Orleans, Jr connected to Oswald, both with a history at Camp Street and Bannister and brother Emilio in a senior CI and propaganda position with SAS at JMWAVE.  Felix from a different family with his own backstory to a planned sniper attack on Castro (Pathfinder).

[William Paris]

If this is the episode where they try to pinpoint a timeframe for when the organizers started planning…it’s fantastic!

[Matt Allison]

Edit: HS graduation yearbook photo above

 

Larry- is there any biographical info on Emilio Rodriquez past the BOP? I see he was a contract agent through 1964 and then recommended for full career agent status in early 1965.  I also see he died young; of a heart attack, near his 39th birthday in November 1967, during the time the Garrison investigation was being conducted.

Also wondering if there are any other photos of him

Edited May 28 by Matt Allison

[Larry Hancock]

Oh  yes, David has developed quite a career history on him, much of that is Tipping Point but I'm sure he can do a synopsis here. Emileo had an exemplary career and was highly regarded in the Agency.  He was also achieved a rather unique status as a political action agent and while with SAS at JMWAVE did a good bit of traveling.  His address book is a who's who of familiar CIA names...

I will alert David to this post and I'm sure he will follow up here.

 

[David Boylan]

Emilio Rodriguez (AMIRE-1) was born in Cuba, moved to New Orleans and attended Tulane. He would work for his brother Arnesto at the Belitz School of Modern Languages in New Orleans before joining his father Arnesto, Sr in Havana as a salesman for various electronic companies. It was here that Emilio was recruited as an asset by Henry Hecksher in 1960. Emilio started as a contact/cutout for the CIA and anti-Castro Cubans living in and around Havana. Here he began to work closely with Tony Sforza (AMRYE-1) and David Morales in recruiting and developing Cubans who would become members of the group called AMOTS. As part of his duties working for Morales, he would supply AMOTS with wireless transmitters and communicate with Miami Station via "secret writing." 

After the Bay of Pigs invasion, he and Tony Sforza remained in Cuba running the "Stay Behind" network until things got a bit too hot for them. Emllio had been arrested but released. They managed to escape from Cuba early June 1961. 

(Emilio was debriefed in New Orleans. He thought he and Sforza had recruited Rolando Cubela (AMLASH-1) at this time, but Cubela kept stringing along the CIA for a few more years. - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=228084)

Emilio and Sforza getting Type A clearances in order to work for Zamka (David Morales) - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=191800#relPageId=1

Emilio's main function to recruit assets for the CIA although he also worked Covert Action, Foreign Intelligence, and Counter Intelligence. 

Emilio was admitted to the Fairfax Hospital DOA. He had a cardiac episode at Dulles International Airport on 11/9/67 before boarding the plane to Miami, on his way back to JMWAVE. The ER doctor, of all things, was a contract employee of the CIA and he recognized some of the names in EAR's notebook: David Phillips, Jake Esterline, Rip Robertson, John Dimmer, Alan White, and more. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=224781

EAR gets his career agent papers signed by Desmond Fitzgerald. He is assigned to JMWAVE.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=191533#relPageId=2

Where Emilio becomes of interest to us is that his brother Arnesto was an acquaintance of Oswald's and close friends with Carlos Bringuier. Oswald had visited Arnesto's Berlitz School of Modern Languages and asked him about Spanish lessons and how to get in contact with local Cubans. Arnesto gave him Carlos Bringuier's name and where to contact him plus a few other Cuban exiles. There is another whole long story here.

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Where Emilio becomes of interest to us is that his brother Arnesto was an acquaintance of Oswald's and close friends with Carlos Bringuier. Oswald had visited Arnesto's Berlitz School of Modern Languages and asked him about Spanish lessons and how to get in contact with local Cubans. Arnesto gave him Carlos Bringuier's name and where to contact him plus a few other Cuban exiles. There is another whole long story here.

Arnesto was also one of three people on the secret military committee of the New Orleans CRC, and possibly one of two by ‘63 since according to Arnesto, one of the other guys Manuel Blanco, who Arnesto described multiple times as a CIA agent, had a “mental breakdown” or something like that towards the end of ‘62. Blanco also worked with Bringuer on propaganda. I’m not sure about the other guy Ernesto Bascuas: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84947#relPageId=4

Oswald certainly tracked down the right man…

Edited May 28 by Tom Gram

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Where Emilio becomes of interest to us is that his brother Arnesto was an acquaintance of Oswald's and close friends with Carlos Bringuier. Oswald had visited Arnesto's Berlitz School of Modern Languages and asked him about Spanish lessons and how to get in contact with local Cubans. Arnesto gave him Carlos Bringuier's name and where to contact him plus a few other Cuban exiles. There is another whole long story here.

David and Larry- thank you for such great info.

Jeff Morley claims both Arnesto and Emilio were at Oswald's court appearance in August 1963. He says the fellow with the mustache is Emilio. I don't personally see the resemblance and wondering what opinion you guys have. Curious to hear Tom's views on this as well.

 

 

Edited May 28 by Matt Allison

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:55 PM, Ron Bulman said:

At about 1:00 in the total program this was new to me, and eye opening in terms of Barnes possible involvement in the JFKA.  Late in his last year in office, it didn't mention before or after the election, Eisenhower called Tracy Barnes to his office in the white house.  He told him that if a false flag operation could be created to justify invasion of Cuba, that we would do so.  Barnes passed on the offer.  Wow.  Why?  I wonder if it was an immediate rejection.  Would Barnes do so without consulting first with Dulles or at least Angleton?  

This was the part that kind of stunned me.  Ike suggesting to the CIA they create a false-flag operation to justify invading Cuba?  Not to Dulles but Barnes?  A step or two down the chain of command for deniability, did he trust Barnes more than Dulles?  I can see why the general might want to support one more regime change on his way out, to eliminate the threat of Castro/Communism on our door step so to speak.  

But before or after the election is important too.  If shortly before would the people of the US rally behind the current administration over the false-flag operation and have elected Nixon instead.  If after JFK would have inherited an occupation of Cuba.  No Bay of Pigs necessary, no Cuban Missile Crisis.  This invasion would not have been about creating free and fair elections in Cuba imo.  The CIA would still have installed a dictator of their choosing even if the idea came from Ike (his objective as well?).  Would the Russians have invaded west Berlin in retaliation?  It's all kind of mind boggling to me.  Especially the going to Barnes, was he maybe more important/powerful than some realized?

[Larry Hancock]

Barnes was the guy for Cuba,  Dulles had left him virtually alone, J.C. King had no real clue as to what was going on operationally...that all becomes very clear in their testimony at the follow up hearings.  Barnes was the one meeting with JFK, isolating him from the people actually in the operation, Barnes was the one talking directly to Commander in Chief Atlantic. Barnes was the one running the highly secret Castro poison plot.

So yes in regard to Cuba Barnes was supremely important and the entire IG report on the failure focused on Barnes - which is why he was allowed to write his own rebuttal. 

As to the timing, the whole Cuba project Phase 1 was supposed to succeed before the election and both Nixon and Eisenhower were appalled when they found it it had totally failed on both concept and timeline.

 

[Matt Allison]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:20 PM, Matt Allison said:

Jeff Morley claims both Arnesto and Emilio were at Oswald's court appearance in August 1963. He says the fellow with the mustache is Emilio. I don't personally see the resemblance

 

Edited June 11 by Matt Allison

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Barnes was the guy for Cuba,  Dulles had left him virtually alone, J.C. King had no real clue as to what was going on operationally...that all becomes very clear in their testimony at the follow up hearings.  Barnes was the one meeting with JFK, isolating him from the people actually in the operation, Barnes was the one talking directly to Commander in Chief Atlantic. Barnes was the one running the highly secret Castro poison plot.

So yes in regard to Cuba Barnes was supremely important and the entire IG report on the failure focused on Barnes - which is why he was allowed to write his own rebuttal. 

As to the timing, the whole Cuba project Phase 1 was supposed to succeed before the election and both Nixon and Eisenhower were appalled when they found it it had totally failed on both concept and timeline.

 

Thank you so much Larry.  You Jim, Paul and Len are very informative together.

I re read Alan Kent's essay today of Barnes, A Well Concealed "T" in Hank Albarelli's Coup In Dallas.  It's the best semi biography on him I've read.  Though I don't have In Denial.  

You, Jim and Paul talk of many relatively unknown to the general public.  My confusion over the Rodriguzes as a e.g.  I think Trick might qualify.

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, about all I can do is suggest suggest you read In Denial if you want a full understanding of the Cuba Project, the Bay of Pigs and Barnes role in both - in that project he was put in a very unique role, and in a strange situation that crossed a presidential transition.  That made oversight extremely complex as did what was a virtually unique organizational structure for the whole thing - which along with Barnes was the subject of the entire project along with Barnes.  The IG report was also quite an indictment of both King and Dulles for that matter - which I suspect is why Barnes was allowed to write his own rebuttal to it, a very unusual practice in itself. Unfortunately Barnes had the reach and support to market his version to the media, which was one of the reasons JFK ended up being so roundly blamed for failures that had been occuring months before he ever took office.