The Report that got Allen Dulles Fired

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

I was writing about the Dulles vs Kennedy confrontation over Lumumba. I consider Mahoney and Jonathan K to be good sources on that.  In fact their books are considered classics today.

That Dulles/JFK confrontation ended in early 1961. And its one of the reasons Dulles was terminated.  Dulles also may have had something to do with the assassination of Dag Hammarskjold.  Gullion sent a cable to DC saying that the Hammarskjold plane crash was not an accident. . But I did not go into that.

 

[Matthew Koch]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I get it. Jim has you on ignore, and by my commenting here it unavoidably comes to his attention. I hope he doesn’t mind my response here.
Does the movie shed light on Dulles being fired? That is the thrust of this thread. In my view of history the Dulles brothers are villains of the first order. What’s your view on them generally? 
I’ve read something about the Katanga ‘mutiny’. The movie is two hours long. Would you mind letting us know where the film maker discusses this? And if you know, could you tell us about the film maker? 

This is the one to watch💯, This is a very candid doc with participants, what I'm getting at is CIA tried but didn't do much the Dutch and Africans did him in.

Lumumba played his cards wrong and basically that's the main reason he died. He made 3 out of 4 groups want to kill him and one did, Tshombe who employed British mercenaries. (who connect to QJ/WIN and would give credence that Skorzeny is QJ/WIN) If you look in to when Dag died there was a mercenary battle goin on in the city he was flying into, and the Soviets disliked Hammerskjold more than the CIA did, so I think it's a bit of a reach to blame his death on Dulles. 

My link doesn't seem to be showing up after it posts

so I put the link in the reason for Edit below that can be copied and pasted into browser 

Edited Thursday at 04:24 AM by Matthew Koch
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x170yte

[Matt Cloud]

15 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

This is the one to watch💯, This is a very candid doc with participants, what I'm getting at is CIA tried but didn't do much the Dutch and Africans did him in.

Lumumba played his cards wrong and basically that's the main reason he died. He made 3 out of 4 groups want to kill him and one did, Tshombe who employed British mercenaries. (who connect to QJ/WIN and would give credence that Skorzeny is QJ/WIN) If you look in to when Dag died there was a mercenary battle goin on in the city he was flying into, and the Soviets disliked Hammerskjold more than the CIA did, so I think it's a bit of a reach to blame his death on Dulles. 

My link doesn't seem to be showing up after it posts

so I put the link in the reason for Edit below that can be copied and pasted into browser 

Also valuable.  I would point out that there is strong indication that Dulles was opposed to the covert activities undertaken by the Special Group, the 5412 Committee, without express CIA approval.  He urged in June 1961 a review of this arrangement as it evidently made him uneasy that CIA was "unprotected" in the sense that it would take the blame.  So the question becomes was Dulles too squeamish on covert activities for the Kennedys?

 

"

Date

May 24, 1961

Description

 

This summary of a CIA deputies’ meeting shows Director Dulles being “quite concerned” about the lack of proper records for some covert operations. The White House had proposed changes to the approval process for covert operations, and in the meantime, Dulles warned his colleagues “about the way essentially 5412 projects are being handled and stated—CIA is totally unprotected if we do not follow established procedures in discussing and obtaining approval of these projects before implementation.” Deputy Director for Plans Richard Bissell tried to assuage Dulles’ trepidations by explaining that he and C. Tracy Barnes “were seeing Mr. Goodwin of the White House today to discuss a 5412-type project on Cuba, and stated that this was an exploratory discussion only and at Mr. Goodwin’s request since he was already knowledgeable of the program.” Bissell then stressed that “he wanted to make it clear neither he nor Mr. Barnes are seeking formal authority from Goodwin to go ahead with the proposal in question.” Dulles then asked Bissell to prepare a brief memo on the Cuba project for him to use at a May 25^th Special Group meeting.

Source

Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library (hereafter GRFL), Rockefeller Commission, Parallel File, Box 6, Folder, “Assassination Material, Miscellaneous (5).”"

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/19612-national-security-archive-doc-01-cia-deputies

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85-00664R000400080008-2.pdf

 

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01676R002400060050-7.pdf

 

 

[Robert Morrow]

On 6/26/2024 at 4:42 AM, James DiEugenio said:

That is also some really interesting information that Bob Morrow added. 

I think that plot with the ring was covered up in the Church Commission. But it indicates that the CIA was trying to get rid of DeGaulle for a long time.

Thanks Bob.

You are welcome.

[Paul Brancato]

21 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Also valuable.  I would point out that there is strong indication that Dulles was opposed to the covert activities undertaken by the Special Group, the 5412 Committee, without express CIA approval.  He urged in June 1961 a review of this arrangement as it evidently made him uneasy that CIA was "unprotected" in the sense that it would take the blame.  So the question becomes was Dulles too squeamish on covert activities for the Kennedys?

 

"

Date

May 24, 1961

Description

 

This summary of a CIA deputies’ meeting shows Director Dulles being “quite concerned” about the lack of proper records for some covert operations. The White House had proposed changes to the approval process for covert operations, and in the meantime, Dulles warned his colleagues “about the way essentially 5412 projects are being handled and stated—CIA is totally unprotected if we do not follow established procedures in discussing and obtaining approval of these projects before implementation.” Deputy Director for Plans Richard Bissell tried to assuage Dulles’ trepidations by explaining that he and C. Tracy Barnes “were seeing Mr. Goodwin of the White House today to discuss a 5412-type project on Cuba, and stated that this was an exploratory discussion only and at Mr. Goodwin’s request since he was already knowledgeable of the program.” Bissell then stressed that “he wanted to make it clear neither he nor Mr. Barnes are seeking formal authority from Goodwin to go ahead with the proposal in question.” Dulles then asked Bissell to prepare a brief memo on the Cuba project for him to use at a May 25^th Special Group meeting.

Source

Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library (hereafter GRFL), Rockefeller Commission, Parallel File, Box 6, Folder, “Assassination Material, Miscellaneous (5).”"

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/19612-national-security-archive-doc-01-cia-deputies

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85-00664R000400080008-2.pdf

 

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01676R002400060050-7.pdf

 

 

I don’t see how you one can draw a conclusion that Dulles was squeamish about Bissell and Barnes and 5412 plans from this quote. 

[Paul Brancato]

Just now, Paul Brancato said:

I don’t see how you one can draw a conclusion that Dulles was squeamish about Bissell and Barnes and 5412 plans from this quote. 

 

[Matt Cloud]

9 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

 

Well NSArchive does.  I didn't write that summary.  

 

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/19612-national-security-archive-doc-01-cia-deputies

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:  There you go again. 

Now i he  have to read this nonsense.

Dulles was trying to kill Lumumba without telling the winning candidate, and then he did not tell JFK even after the guy was dead.

Dulles secretly knew that Bay of Pigs was going to fail, yet told JFK he felt confident it would succeed.

He approved the plots to kill Castro, again without informing the president.

As the Bruce/ Lovett report makes clear Dulles turned the CIA into a covert action machine, one which Kennedy complained he was in the dark about at times.  Before Smathers sold out his pal, he said that one night at dinner he was trying to encourage JFK into backing a plot to kill Castro. Kennedy exploded in rage and smashed a plate over the table. He said he wanted no such talk in his presence and complained about the CIA doing these kinds  of things on their own, as he suspected they had done with Trujillo.

Need I even mention Truman?  That column in the Washington Post worried Dulles so much that he went to Truman's house and tried to get him to retract it.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:07 AM by James DiEugenio

[Matt Cloud]

8 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul:  There you go again. 

Now i he  have to read this nonsense.

Dulles was trying to kill Lumumba without telling the winning candidate, and then he did not tell JFK even after the guy was dead.

Dulles secretly knew that Bay of Pigs was going to fail, yet told JFK he felt confident it would succeed.

He approved the plots to kill Castro, again without informing the president.

As the Bruce/ Lovett report makes clear Dulles turned the CIA into a covert action machine, one which Kennedy complained he was in the dark about at times.  Before Smathers sold out his pal, he said that one night at dinner he was trying to encourage JFK into backing a plot to kill Castro. Kennedy exploded in rage and smashed a plate over the table. He said he wanted so such talk in his presence and complained about the CIA doing these kinds  of thing on their own, as he suspected they had done with Trujillo.

Need I even mention Truman?  That column in the Washington Post worried Dulles so much that he went to Truman's house and tried to get him to retract it.

 

You operate in the tertiary. 

[Paul Brancato]

And Bissell and Barnes were America Firsters

Edited yesterday at 02:06 AM by Paul Brancato

[James DiEugenio]

I will be soon doing an expanded version on substack of my Pittsburgh talk about "The Death of JFK and the Rise of the Neocons."

I would be working on it right now, but I am going to do a substack on last night's debate first.

Then I will get to work on that revised and expanded version.

Kennedy's relationship with Nasser is so interesting.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:08 AM by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

56 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I will be soon doing an expanded version on substack of my Pittsburgh talk about "The Death of JFK and the Rise of the Neocons."

I would be working on it right now, but I am going to do a substack on last night's debate first.

Then I will get to work on that revised and expanded version.

Kennedy's relationship with Nasser is so interesting.

 

Jim, before you do the substack on the debate, if it's not too late.  Watch the 15 minute CNN coverage of Bidens speech today.  He got his voice back to say the least.  Leslie linked it in the water cooler thread.  I'd link here but it is unquestionably current politics.

[Matt Cloud]

14 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

And Bissell and Barnes were America Firsters

What?  They are the embodiment of interventionism.

 

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_CIA_and_the_Marshall_Plan/W6KzAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq="tracey+barnes"+"oss"&pg=PA31&printsec=frontcover

 

 

RICHARD M. BISSELL JR. PAPERS MARSHALL PLAN ...

 

Eisenhower Presidential Library (.gov)

https://www.eisenhowerlibrary.gov › files › pdf

 

 

PDF

 

Richard M. Bissell began his involvement with the European Recovery Program (ERP) (known colloquially as the “Marshall Plan”) in 1947.

2 pages

 

Richard M. Bissell Jr.

 

Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Richard_M._Bissell_Jr.

 

 

 

 

Marshall Plan. edit. In July 1947, Bissell was recruited by W. Averell Harriman to run a committee to lobby for an economic recovery plan for Europe. The ...

 

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

A friend found a pic of the two of them at Yale in 1940 that he says proves the point. 
Your distinction, basically implying one could not be an America First member and an interventionist later, or even at the time, is very revealing. America First was against intervening against the Germans. That’s not too hard a concept. When Hitler’s true motives and purpose were revealed in full the isolationists lost influence. True it was a tough slog because Hitler Nazism Fascism had their fans. And after the war those same basic forces wrested power from the Roosevelt ‘socialists’ and never relinquished it. Dulles brothers, Bissell, the rest all on the same side. I’m not sure why you think that document proves otherwise, when all it really proves is Dulles wanting to protect his reputation at all costs, wanting plausible deniability. 

Edited 16 hours ago by Paul Brancato

[Matt Cloud]

40 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

A friend found a pic of the two of them at Yale in 1940 that he says proves the point. 
Your distinction, basically implying one could not be an America First member and an interventionist later, or even at the time, is very revealing. America First was against intervening against the Germans. That’s not too hard a concept. When Hitler’s true motives and purpose were revealed in full the isolationists lost influence. True it was a tough slog because Hitler Nazism Fascism had their fans. And after the war those same basic forces wrested power from the Roosevelt ‘socialists’ and never relinquished it. Dulles brothers, Bissell, the rest all on the same side. I’m not sure why you think that document proves otherwise, when all it really proves is Dulles wanting to protect his reputation at all costs, wanting plausible deniability. 

What distinction reveals what?  I didn't make any distinction, let alone imply anything other than that [Edit: Barnes] and Bissell and the rest of the OSS and later CIA and Marshall Plan personnel are not America First, whatever pic your friend thinks he found.  And what document are you referring to that you think proves anything.  If you can't write, you can't think -- and vice-versa.

Edited 15 hours ago by Matt Cloud