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LHO, his general character, not exactly a lone nut...


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On 8/15/2024 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Balch said:

A lone nut would most likely have brought his pistol to work, watched the motorcade from the curb of Elm St. and shot the president at close range like the assassins of Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Archduke Ferdinand, Roosevelt, Ford (twice!), Reagan etc.

Curry and Wade emphatically stated that Oswald was not a nut.

The Lone Nut legend was spun to preclude conspiracy, not as a defense of Oswald.

Do you have those quotes handy on Jesse Curry and Henry Wade emphatically saying Oswald was not a nut? I want them for my files. Thank you.

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2 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Do you have those quotes handy on Jesse Curry and Henry Wade emphatically saying Oswald was not a nut? I want them for my files. Thank you.

Both were in videos. One,  a compilation of media interviews with Curry where he says Oswald is not insane. I’m not sure where in the video it was.

Another video of Wade saying the same thing. A much shorter video.

 

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6 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

"Hearsay" is completely acceptable in the search for historical truth. More than that, it is extremely valuable. The search for historical truth has absolutely nothing to do with what is admissible in a criminal court trial. The caveat is that it is often a good idea to try to "confirm" the original hearsay.

I will give you a good example of some informative history. Commander Dave Lewis, who I interviewed multiple times as the very end of his life, said that just a few days after Israel's savage attack on the USS Liberty Admiral Geis went to see Lewis while he was in the ship hospital. Admiral Geis then said I am going to tell you something but please never repeat it until after I am dead: we tried to send rescue planes to the USS Liberty but President Lyndon Johnson personally got on the military phone and said "Turn the planes back! I don't give a damn if the ship sinks and everyone dies! I will not embarrass MY ally (meaning Israel)."

That is HEARSAY. Dave Lewis did not hear Lyndon Johnson say that. Rather Dave Lewis SAID that Admiral Geis SAID that Lyndon Johnson SAID "I don't give a damn if the ship sinks, I will not embarrass MY ally."

That is not admissible in a criminal court trial but it damn sure is in the search for historical truth!!

One just has to determine whether one considers Dave Lewis and Admiral Geis credible on the transmission of this highly toxic LBJ anecdote.

Commander Dave Lewis, who was the head of the NSA unit on the USS Liberty, started publicly telling this anecdote in the year 1987; Geis had died a few years before.

Then a funny thing happened in 2007, the Chicago Tribune wrote a story on the USS Liberty and they interviewed a former sailor named Tony Hart.

New revelations in attack on American spy ship – Chicago Tribune 

["New revelations in attack on American spy ship," Chicago Tribune, 2007 (updated in 2021):

QUOTE

J.Q. “Tony” Hart, then a chief petty officer assigned to a U.S. Navy relay station in Morocco that handled communications between Washington and the 6th Fleet, remembered listening as Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, in Washington, ordered Rear Adm. Lawrence Geis, commander of the America’s carrier battle group, to bring the jets home.

When Geis protested that the Liberty was under attack and needed help, Hart said, McNamara retorted that “President [Lyndon] Johnson is not going to go to war or embarrass an American ally over a few sailors.”

McNamara, who is now 91, told the Tribune he has “absolutely no recollection of what I did that day,” except that “I have a memory that I didn’t know at the time what was going on.”

The Johnson administration did not publicly dispute Israel’s claim that the attack had been nothing more than a disastrous mistake. But internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis’ explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.

Except for McNamara, most senior administration officials from Secretary of State Dean Rusk on down privately agreed with Johnson’s intelligence adviser, Clark Clifford, who was quoted in minutes of a National Security Council staff meeting as saying it was “inconceivable” that the attack had been a case of mistaken identity.

The attack “couldn’t be anything else but deliberate,” the NSA’s director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress.

“I don’t think you’ll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental,” Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview.

“I just always assumed that the Israeli pilots knew what they were doing,” said Harold Saunders, then a member of the National Security Council staff and later assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs.

UNQUOTE

Now what Tony Hart said does not precisely match what Dave Lewis/Admiral Geis account of that LBJ said, but putting those words in McNamara's mouth is pretty darn close to what Admiral Geis said about what dyspeptic Lyndon Johnson said.

The original account of this story came from Dave Lewis recounting a hearsay anecdote and in my never humble opinion in 2007 Tony Hart, as reported by the Chicago Tribune, confirmed the story. 

 

 

 

 

You have your views, and I have mine. 

The following CIA document was top secret, and thus likely an earnest assessment, not pandering to any political biases.

This seems about right to me:

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001359216.pdf

 

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4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You have your views, and I have mine. 

The following CIA document was top secret, and thus likely an earnest assessment, not pandering to any political biases.

This seems about right to me:

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001359216.pdf

 

You do know that CIA Chief at the time of the USS Liberty attack RICHARD HELMS WAS ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT THE ATTACK ON THE USS LIBERTY WAS ISRAEL INTENTIONALLY ATTACKING AN AMERICAN SHIP? Helms stated in 2002 (just before his death) "It was no accident." 50 Years Ago: NSA’s Deadliest Day | Observer Richard Helms also told James Bamford "Your chapter on the Liberty was exactly right;" Bamford's book posited Israel intentionally attacked the Liberty.

And if you did not know the above (until this very second), then I think your knowledge of what happened with the USS Liberty and what many highest-level U.S. officials thought (they were sure it was intentional) is quite thin. Btw, I am not an "expert" on what happened with the USS Liberty, but it seems pretty obvious to me what happened.

James Angleton, who was a longtime, complete and notorious stooge for the Zionists, was still in power in the CIA at that time of the creation of that CIA document. It is reasonable to think that he perhaps helped to coordinate with Israel intentionally attacking the USS Liberty.

George Christian, who was LBJ's press secretary in June of 1967 said "No one in the White House believed the attack was an accident" as he wrote to USS Liberty survivor James Ennes. NO ONE in the Johnson White House thought Israel accidentally attacked the Liberty. I happen to have gone to three USS Liberty survivor's reunions. They tell me that out of perhaps 100 USS Liberty survivors they know of, only ONE of them has ever publicly said that Israel's attack on the Liberty was a case of mistaken identity.

Remember, we have very good evidence there was a cover up on Israel's intentional attack on the USS Liberty; all you have to do is read the words of Capt. Ward Boston who was told by Admiral Kidd who said that Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary McNamara both ordered a cover up on Israel's intentional attack on the Liberty. I will post that link again for you: https://ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-boston.html

There were many prominent U.S. government officials who believe that Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty. If you google “James Bamford Responds to Charges Made in Secrecy News” you will find a strong list of high government officials who believed this. 

You can use this web link: https://sgp.fas.org/eprint/bamford.html 

In the words of author James Bamford in 2001: 

-- Lieutenant General Marshall S. Carter, director of the National Security Agency at the time: "There was no other answer than it was deliberate."

-- Dr. Louis Tordella, the deputy director of NSA at the time: "I believed the attack might have been ordered by some senior commander on the Sinai Peninsula [where the massacres were taking place] who wrongly suspected that the Liberty was monitoring his activities." Tordella also scrawled across the top page of the formal Israeli "mistake" report, "A nice whitewash."

-- Major General John Morrison, NSA deputy director of Operations at the time: "Nobody believes that explanation. The only conjecture that we ever made that made any near sense is that the Israelis did not want us to intercept their communications at that time."

-- Walter Deeley, the senior NSA official who conducted an internal NSA investigation of the incident: "There is no way that they didn't know that the Liberty was American."

-- Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: "I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American."

-- Captain William L. McGonnagle, the Liberty's commander: "After many years I finally believe that the attack was deliberate."

-- Phillip F. Tourney, president of the USS Liberty Veterans Association and a survivor of the attack: "The Israelis got by with cold-blooded, premeditated murder of Americans."

-- Richard Helms, Director of Central Intelligence at the time: "Your chapter on the Liberty was exactly right."

-- George Christian, press secretary to President Johnson at the time: "I became convinced that an accident of this magnitude was too much to swallow."

-- Paul C. Warnke, Under Secretary of the Navy at the time: "I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units.... I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests."

-- Dean Rusk, Secretary of State at the time: "The Liberty was flying an American flag. It was not all that difficult to identify, and my judgment was that somewhere along the line some fairly senior Israeli official gave the go-ahead for these attacks."

-- David G. Nes, the deputy head of the American mission in Cairo at the time: "I don't think that there's any doubt that it was deliberate.... [It is] one of the great cover-ups of our military history."

-- George Ball, Under Secretary of State at the time: "American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of its citizens."

Also, Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, a former director of the NSA as well as a former deputy director of the CIA, has strongly insisted that Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty. You may google “Who Says the Liberty Attack was Deliberate?”

Let me end with this, in 1993 Grace Halsell wrote an interesting article on how completely in the tank for Israel that Lyndon Johnson's White House was for Israel in 1967: https://www.wrmea.org/1993-june/how-lbj-s-vietnam-war-paralyzed-his-mideast-policymakers.html LBJ himself was basically Superman Zionist which is a proof in itself that if Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty, then it came on LBJ's orders.

So LBJ's full on Zionist White House, all internally thought that Israel had intentionally attacked an American.

Most people who think this have not taken the psychological leap to believe that Lyndon Johnson was actually the master criminal who ordered the sinking of the USS Liberty so it could be blamed on Egypt, but logic and evidence tells ME that was the case. At least half of the current USS Liberty survivors just can't accept their president LBJ wanted them dead.

(You are welcome to disagree, of course. Disagreement makes a forum.)

 

Edited by Robert Morrow
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8 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Both were in videos. One,  a compilation of media interviews with Curry where he says Oswald is not insane. I’m not sure where in the video it was.

Another video of Wade saying the same thing. A much shorter video.

 

Thanks! - RM

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9 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

 

At the 12:10 mark of the Curry interview above, when Curry is asked if Oswald was "mentally right". Curry responds..."he's mentally right all right."

And when asked if he thought Oswald was "off his rocker?" Curry responds ... "No."

Note also that when a reporter asked Curry if he was concerned about Oswald's security due to the extreme heightened anger of the public, Curry loses his composer a bit and then looking downward he guardedly mumbles some vague general thoughts and finally says " I don't think anyone will try to take the prisoner away from us."

This Oswald security question to Curry was the only time you see Curry seem thrown off guard and hesitate in his response. Ominously telling since he and his force just less than 24 hours later were guilty of "the greatest prisoner protection security breakdown failure in American history."

The most important criminal suspect in American history gunned down right inside of their own building while two Dallas PD officers are handcuffed to him on both sides.

Edited by Joe Bauer
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Also in the Curry interview video above, a reporter shouts out to Curry a question about Oswald being a suspect in the General Edwin Walker shooting?

Curry just shakes off the question.

So, in just 24+ hours after JFK was gunned down the press has been made aware of Oswald possibly being the shooter who took a pot shot at Walker months earlier?

The only person who could have revealed this would have been Marina Oswald.

Did Marina tell the DPD about Lee being the shooter in just one days time of her questioning? I would have thought that Marina may have been more guarded about this extremely incriminating information. Especially because she has been reported to have later said she was worried about her own criminal liability in not reporting her husband's attempt on Walker on her own during it's happening and for months afterwards.

And if Marina did reveal Oswald's Walker crime ... who then leaked this to the press less that 24 hours after Lee's arrest?

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One of the great conundrums of the Oswald interrogation story is his incredibly calm and collected demeanor through it all. 
Never once losing his cool and looking anxious and scared and or saying anything weird or unbalanced to the press that one might expect from someone who just hours earlier allegedly had committed what normal people would consider acts of extreme violence insanity.

 

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33 minutes ago, Johnny Cairns said:

If Oswald was a left wing Marxist then why did he choose to acquaint himself with vehement anti communist right wingers in Dallas and New Orleans? 

I think that was typically Oswald by then, getting to know who they are and what they stand for. Perhaps like going to Russia was about seeing it for himself what communism in reality was like (I guess he kept doing that when he returned, having learned a valuable lesson).  Perhaps that was not his intention in first, but he did learn it the hard way, the best way.  He was a reader, but knew you´d better check it out yourself and he was certainly critical about politics.

 

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9 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

I think that was typically Oswald by then, getting to know who they are and what they stand for. Perhaps like going to Russia was about seeing it for himself what communism in reality was like (I guess he kept doing that when he returned, having learned a valuable lesson).  Perhaps that was not his intention in first, but he did learn it the hard way, the best way.  He was a reader, but knew you´d better check it out yourself and he was certainly critical about politics.

 

A genuine Marxist would not have been tolerated in the circles, Oswald involved himself in. One of the White Russians went to the FBI about Oswald and they gave him the OK. 

Edited by Johnny Cairns
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37 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Also in the Curry interview video above, a reporter shouts out to Curry a question about Oswald being a suspect in the General Edwin Walker shooting?

Curry just shakes off the question.

So, in just 24+ hours after JFK was gunned down the press has been made aware of Oswald possibly being the shooter who took a pot shot at Walker months earlier?

The only person who could have revealed this would have been Marina Oswald.

Did Marina tell the DPD about Lee being the shooter in just one days time of her questioning? I would have thought that Marina may have been more guarded about this extremely incriminating information. Especially because she has been reported to have later said she was worried about her own criminal liability in not reporting her husband's attempt on Walker on her own during it's happening and for months afterwards.

And if Marina did reveal Oswald's Walker crime ... who then leaked this to the press less that 24 hours after Lee's arrest?

Something I noticed along the way, Marina for a certain time held on to certain things Oswald could have told her. 

Even when the FBI had already figured out where Oswald had gotten the FPCC handbills, she was still saying they were send to him from New-York.  

She was left in the middle with 2 kids and under a lot of pressure, probably holding on to things O. had told her. Untill the pressure got to much and she gave in to the FBI (at least about certain things). Also, she didn´t have the best advisors, Martin was getting money as a source.

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59 minutes ago, Johnny Cairns said:

If Oswald was a left wing Marxist then why did he choose to acquaint himself with vehement anti communist right wingers in Dallas and New Orleans? 

I guess there are a few possibilities, but the one that makes sense to me is that his Marxist bonafides were a cover, a deliberate act, executed over several years. I don’t think it likely that he was vehemently right wing either, but if I had to pick one I would choose the latter. I went into this will Paul Hoch 35 years ago, and he would only say the truth was obvious to him, but wouldn’t reveal to me what that truth was. I think Paul believed the Marxist story and could tell that I was doubtful. Years later I listened to Oswald’s New Orleans radio appearance, and it seemed to me that he sounded too doctrinaire. I grew up in a Communist/Marxist milieu, and never heard anyone talk the way Oswald did, like he had studied the lingo as part of his masquerade. Ask yourself - why did he go to Russia? On his own, in exploration of something to believe in, or as part of a false defector program? He never defected. And he was already being groomed while stationed in the far east. His first US contact upon his return was connected to the ABN - Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations. Upon moving to Dallas he and Marina were welcomed by the White Russians there. He was the sole member of a FPCC chapter which he created in New Orleans. Even the FPCC may have been an intelligence gathering front. The street altercation with Bringuier seems staged. When I started the thread called The Adventures of Lee Harvey Oswald it was in hopes that we would see him not as a dupe or a loner, but as a young but brilliant undercover operative. 

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2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Also in the Curry interview video above, a reporter shouts out to Curry a question about Oswald being a suspect in the General Edwin Walker shooting?

Curry just shakes off the question.

So, in just 24+ hours after JFK was gunned down the press has been made aware of Oswald possibly being the shooter who took a pot shot at Walker months earlier?

The only person who could have revealed this would have been Marina Oswald.

Did Marina tell the DPD about Lee being the shooter in just one days time of her questioning? I would have thought that Marina may have been more guarded about this extremely incriminating information. Especially because she has been reported to have later said she was worried about her own criminal liability in not reporting her husband's attempt on Walker on her own during it's happening and for months afterwards.

And if Marina did reveal Oswald's Walker crime ... who then leaked this to the press less that 24 hours after Lee's arrest?

Do we know who asked this? A lot of the Dallas press was friendly to Walker and it wouldn't surprise me if Walker himself was telling people Oswald--by then exposed as a commie sympathizer--had been the one to shoot at him. 

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