My New Book, A Heritage of Nonsense: Jim Garrison's Tales of Mystery and Imagination

[Fred Litwin]

I don't really recognize my books in Mr. DiEugenio's posts.

I still want to know why Oliver Stone and James DiEugenio used a fake flyer in their documentary series?

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills

An analysis of the handbill used in Oliver Stone's so-called documentary, JFK: Destiny Betrayed.

 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-two

An examination of where the fake handbill came from.

 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-three

A look at James DiEugenio's use of the fake handbill.

 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-four

Jefferson Morley is the latest researcher to use a fake Oswald handbill.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Pat,

There is nothing wrong with what William is doing.  It is correct and I have supplied scores of facts to back it up.  If Pat wants to be friendly with a guy who likes, associates himself and praises the likes of Harry Connick, Hugh Aynseworth, Allen Dulles, John McCloy and Gerry Ford, fine. That is your choice.

Throwing him a palsy walsy bouquet like you did, with OMG, Robert Stone of all people? If you are comfortable with that, that is you business. I never knew you were an expert on New Orleans though.  On your voluminous site, I cannot detect this.

I am, since I have been there four times and talked to dozens of people. And I have gone through literally thousands of pages of files.  Not just from the Archives but though the repositories in New Orleans.

BTW, it is all too revealing about Robert Stone as to how he ended his BS  film.

You would have thought it would be with either the HSCA or the creation of the ARRB. Since it came out in the new millenium,  after hundreds of thousands of pages of new documents had been released. Many of them very interesting. Since some came from the HSCA and its reinquiry into New Orleans.

That is not the way Stone chose to end his film.  He ended it 20 years earlier with the Church Committee. But it was not with for example, the plots to kill Lumumba and how this was done before Kennedy entered office and then hidden from him after, to the point he did not know Lumumba was dead until about a month later.

No Pat that is not the way Robert Stone ended his film.  He ended it with the Church Committee and Judith Exner.  What did that have to do with Jim Garrison?  Did you ask him that?

By not revealing any of the above, or Kennedy's plan to withdraw from Vietnam, which was clear by then, or JFK's attempts at detente with Russia and Cuba,  Robert Stone was out to smear JFK. Clear and simple.

There are no excuses for something like that, especially if you have Hugh Aynseworth, Edward Epstein and Priscilla Johnson as your talking heads.

 

Edited 14 hours ago by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Really? I was the most-active moderator of this forum, when we had the likes of Fetzer and Thompson duking it out on a daily basis. 

IF I had harassed every member who said something that was dubious, or who had repeated something which had been discredited, thousands upon thousands of posts would have been erased or prevented from even existing, and the forum would have shriveled up long ago.

 

Pat,

     Your comment is misleading, at best.

     Why do you mislabel evidence-based rebuttals of JFKA disinformation here as "harassment?"

     You seem to have an oddly ambiguous relationship with truth-telling.

      It reminds me of your curiously inaccurate comment (above) downplaying the history of the CIA "Mockingbird" propaganda establishment in modern history-- while simultaneously claiming to have read The Mighty Wurlitzer, Carl Bernstein's 1977 Rolling Stone essay on The CIA and the Media, and Udo Ulfkotte's book, Presstitutes!   Quite the reductio ad absurdum.

      Most people who have spent any time studying the literature and media coverage of the JFK assassination are fully aware of the highly prevalent disinformation promoting the WCR Lone Nut narrative in our mainstream and social media during the past 60 years.

       Should people respond to it honestly, when it rears its ugly head on the Education Forum?

       The other curious thing about your misleading comment (above) is that you accused a fellow moderator of "harassment"-- for responding honestly to forum disinformation-- while saying nothing about the harassment of the moderator by people promoting the disinformation.

     

Edited 14 hours ago by W. Niederhut

[Steve Roe]

On 10/2/2024 at 12:17 PM, Greg Doudna said:

The young man was a local, son of a local police officer or something like that. Everybody knows everybody. The local authorities don’t know Rose Cheramie, the victim. But they all know and like the kid. They know he didn’t mean to do it. It became an acceptable story to close the case, that she was lying prone in the road when he accidentally ran her over.

i don’t know that’s what happened. But I just suspect something like that accounts for the oddity in the story. 

That’s my minor possible contribution to that case.

Greg, you and I have differed along a many topic. But on this topic, Cherami or Cheramie, I think your synopsis of this is closer to the truth. I've looked into this a few years back, even corresponding with Michael Marcades. Yep, I have contacted the courthouse, etc. Vaguely familiar with that area of East Texas, Big Sandy, Gilmer (where Dr. Bob McClelland grew up), It's my opinion you are right. There were some things I have questions about, but it's extremely clear, the Rose Cheramie Myth, is nothing more than conspiracy literature nonsense. I've tracked her back way into the 1940's, and it's abundantly clear, she had mental issues (whether they were caused by health concerns or not). 

The young man your referred to, who ran over Melba, was from Tyler. I've looked into his background. As you know Greg, Smith County (Tyler) was a dry county. It's my historical recollection that old US highway 80, in that part of East Texas was now Interstate 20, in 1965. I don't recall if Big Sandy was wet in 1965, but certainly Gilmer was wet, and the young man (his identity I won't reveal here) could have been drinking in that late hour in the morning as he went south on State highway 155. 

So, I would very certainly disregard the DiEugenio's "wolf pack" mentality here and focus on the truth in a logical manner. DiEugenio, if you haven't figured this out by now, is supported by moderators here on EF. Sad. But kudos to Dieugenio for building yet another social media dominance. You will continue see nothing but referrals to DiEugenio's articles as proof of a JFK conspiracy with Melba. So you have to go to the source, which DiEugenio promotes, and it's extremely questionable. 

It's laughable and expected. 

DiEugenio's sources on the death of Melba. His Destiny Betrayed book is so convoluted, with over a hundred conspiracies topics, designed to buffalo a common reader. It's atrocious. His sources he posts in that loony book are designed to link back to Probe articles, Bil Davy, Joan Mellen and a whole host of other conspiracy books. It's not scholarship by any stretch of imagination. It's regurgitation, without research, rather condoning what other people say. 

Let's test Dr. Niederhut's knowledge. Dr. can you tell everyone here what Cherami's real name was? 

Take your time, PM DiEugenio to get your answer. 

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Pat,

There is nothing wrong with what William is doing.  It is correct and I have supplied scores of facts to back it up.  If Pat wants to be friendly with a guy who likes, associates himself and praises the likes of Harry Connick, Hugh Aynseworth, Allen Dulles, John McCloy and Gerry Ford, fine. That is your choice.

Throwing him a palsy walsy bouquet like you did, with OMG, Robert Stone of all people? If you are comfortable with that, that is you business. I never knew you were an expert on New Orleans though.  On your voluminous site, I cannot detect this.

I am, since I have been there four times.  And I have gone through literally thousands of pages of files.  Not just from the Archives but though the repositories in New Orleans.

BTW, it is all too revealing about Robert Stone as to how he ended his BS  film.

You would have thought it would be with either the HSCA or the creation of the ARRB. Since it came out in the new millenium, well after hundreds of thousands of pages of new documents had been released. Many of them very interesting. Since some came from the HSCA and its reinquiry into New Orleans.

That is not the way Stone chose to end his film.  He ended it 20 year earlier with the Church Committee. But it was not with for example, the plots to kill Lumumba and how this was done before Kennedy entered office and then hidden from him after, to the point he did not know Lumumba was dead until about a month later.

No Pat that is not the way Robert Stone ended his film.  He ended it with the Church Committee and Judith Exner.  What did that have to do with Jim Garrison?  Did you ask him that?

By not revealing any of the above, or Kennedy's plan to withdraw from Vietnam, which was clear by then, or his JFK's attempts at detente with Russia and Cuba,  Robert Stone was out to smear JFK. Clear and simple.

There are no excuses for something like that, especially if you have Hugh Aynseworth, Edward Epstein and Priscilla Johnson as your talking heads.

 

I am not taking his side against yours, Jim. I suspect that if you two had a long back and forth I would agree with you more than I would him. But I think he has as much right to post dubious or incorrect information on this forum as anyone else. As you know, a lot of leeway has been given to people claiming what we both know is nonsense.

I don't consider Fred's "mistakes" if you will any more harmful to the forum, for example, than the numerous posts on this forum claiming Hickey did it or Greer did it...or books claiming Bobby was behind the cover-up. If anything, Fred's scholarship if you will is superior in that he explains why he believes stuff. Which makes it easy for you to point out what he has missed or where he has been led astray. 

As far as Robert Stone, I confronted him after the screening of his movie for his refusal to look at anything post-Garrison, and was really glad I did. Lifton joined me and the two of us really gave him an earful. To his credit, Stone mostly stood there and took it. (FWIW, Someone in attendance--I think it was Clint Bradford--took a photo of the two of us giving Stone his due, and sent it to me.)

Stone just didn't give a crap about anything post Garrison. He felt that the research community had a shot but blew it by supporting Garrison. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. As far as I'm concerned, Oswald's Ghost should be re-edited with a disclaimer at the end saying "There's a lot more to this story but the director cut it off here because he had nothing else to say about Garrison, and he really doesn't care about Oswald or Kennedy."

Edited 13 hours ago by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Now, admittedly, I haven't read Fred's books. So maybe he can pipe in about his motivations and why the likes of Garrison are far more offensive to him than say Arlen Specter and David Belin.

Geez Louise! Isn't the answer blatantly obvious?!!

There's absolutely no comparison to be made between those three men. One of the men you mentioned (Jim Garrison) had no solid evidence whatsoever against the man he put on trial for conspiracy to commit murder. While the other two men (Arlen Specter and David Belin) had many items of evidence (plus Oswald's very own highly incriminating actions and movements on 11/21 and 11/22/63) linking Lee Oswald to the two murders he committed in Dallas.

Such an obviously cockeyed comparison is like trying to compare Marvelous Marv Throneberry with Lou Gehrig. It's absurd on its face.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Pat,

     Your comment is misleading, at best.

     Why do you mislabel evidence-based rebuttals of JFKA disinformation here as "harassment?"

     You seem to have an oddly ambiguous relationship with truth-telling.

      It reminds me of your curiously inaccurate comment (above) downplaying the history of the CIA "Mockingbird" propaganda establishment in modern history-- while simultaneously claiming to have read The Mighty Wurlitzer, Carl Bernstein's 1977 Rolling Stone essay on The CIA and the Media, and Udo Ulfkotte's book, Presstitutes!   Quite the reductio ad absurdum.

      Most people who have spent any time studying the literature and media coverage of the JFK assassination are fully aware of the highly prevalent disinformation promoting the WCR Lone Nut narrative in our mainstream and social media during the past 60 years.

       Should people respond to it honestly, when it rears its ugly head on the Education Forum?

       The other curious thing about your misleading comment (above) is that you accused a fellow moderator of "harassment"-- for responding honestly to forum disinformation-- while saying nothing about the harassment of the moderator by people promoting the disinformation.

     

I apologize for misrepresenting your actions. I thought you had refused to read anything written by a member of this forum, and had urged people to ignore his writings, even though you had no personal knowledge of what he had written. 

My bad. 

[W. Niederhut]

25 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg, you and I have differed along a many topic. But on this topic, Cherami or Cheramie, I think your synopsis of this is closer to the truth. I've looked into this a few years back, even corresponding with Michael Marcades. Yep, I have contacted the courthouse, etc. Vaguely familiar with that area of East Texas, Big Sandy, Gilmer (where Dr. Bob McClelland grew up), It's my opinion you are right. There were some things I have questions about, but it's extremely clear, the Rose Cheramie Myth, is nothing more than conspiracy literature nonsense. I've tracked her back way into the 1940's, and it's abundantly clear, she had mental issues (whether they were caused by health concerns or not). 

The young man your referred to, who ran over Melba, was from Tyler. I've looked into his background. As you know Greg, Smith County (Tyler) was a dry county. It's my historical recollection that old US highway 80, in that part of East Texas was now Interstate 20, in 1965. I don't recall if Big Sandy was wet in 1965, but certainly Gilmer was wet, and the young man (his identity I won't reveal here) could have been drinking in that late hour in the morning as he went south on State highway 155. 

So, I would very certainly disregard the DiEugenio's "wolf pack" mentality here and focus on the truth in a logical manner. DiEugenio, if you haven't figured this out by now, is supported by moderators here on EF. Sad. But kudos to Dieugenio for building yet another social media dominance. You will continue see nothing but referrals to DiEugenio's articles as proof of a JFK conspiracy with Melba. So you have to go to the source, which DiEugenio promotes, and it's extremely questionable. 

It's laughable and expected. 

DiEugenio's sources on the death of Melba. His Destiny Betrayed book is so convoluted, with over a hundred conspiracies topics, designed to buffalo a common reader. It's atrocious. His sources he posts in that loony book are designed to link back to Probe articles, Bil Davy, Joan Mellen and a whole host of other conspiracy books. It's not scholarship by any stretch of imagination. It's regurgitation, without research, rather condoning what other people say. 

Let's test Dr. Niederhut's knowledge. Dr. can you tell everyone here what Cherami's real name was? 

Take your time, PM DiEugenio to get your answer. 

 

Get a clue, Beer Can Dude.

I'm a Harvard grad.  Do you know anything about New England's oldest institution of higher learning?

Cheramie used multiple aliases.

Edited 13 hours ago by W. Niederhut

[Steve Roe]

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Get a clue, Beer Can Dude.

I'm a Harvard grad.  Do you know anything America's oldest institution of higher learning?

Cheramie had multiple aliases.

Ok, I accept your answer you don't know Rose Cherami's real name. And I do notice like many here, that you Dr. Niederhut, had to delete your comments about Fred Litwin being a CIA "Mockingbird" asset. 

Now everyone knows this, right?

Edited 13 hours ago by Steve Roe

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

Geez Louise! Isn't the answer blatantly obvious?!!

There's absolutely no comparison to be made between those three men. One of the men you mentioned (Jim Garrison) had no solid evidence whatsoever against the man he put on trial for conspiracy to commit murder. While the other two men (Arlen Specter and David Belin) had many items of evidence (plus Oswald's very own highly incriminating actions and movements on 11/21 and 11/22/63) linking Lee Oswald to the two murders he committed in Dallas.

Such an obviously cockeyed comparison is like trying to compare Marvelous Marv Throneberry with Lou Gehrig. It's absurd on its face.

 

I beg to differ. 

Garrison's investigation was a search for truth. He was after the truth, and MAY HAVE used a man he thought to be innocent--Shaw--as a pawn in a larger game...designed to uncover the truth. 

Specter and Belin, however, felt they had a client--the LBJ Administration---who wanted them to CONCEAL the truth--for which they lied and suborned perjury. And lied until the end.

[W. Niederhut]

5 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Ok, I accept your answer you don't know Rose Cherami's real name. And I do notice like many here, that you Dr. Niederhut, had to delete your comments about Fred Litwin being a CIA "Mockingbird" asset. \

Now everyone knows this, right?

Huh?  Delirium tremens?

Are you, perchance, pounding Lone Star brews this early in the day, Senor Roe?

I asked your colleague, Fred, a few weeks ago if he had ever contracted to do WCR sales work for the Company.

It was a question, not an accusation.

He never answered my question.

Edited 13 hours ago by W. Niederhut

[Steve Roe]

1 minute ago, W. Niederhut said:

Huh?  Delirium tremens?

Are you, perchance, pounding Lone Star brews this early in the day, Senor Roe?

I asked your colleague, Fred, a few weeks ago if he had ever contracted to do WCR sales work for the Company.

It was a question, not an accusation.

He never answered my question.

No Dr. No. Of course you are evading. 

Let the record show, Dr. Niederhut, a Education Moderator, will not answer why he had to delete his comments about Fred Litwin being a CIA asset, promoting false disinformation. 

[W. Niederhut]

12 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I apologize for misrepresenting your actions. I thought you had refused to read anything written by a member of this forum, and had urged people to ignore his writings, even though you had no personal knowledge of what he had written. 

My bad. 

Pat,

     I agree with the "bad" part.

     If you re-read my actual comments on this thread, you will, hopefully, realize that I asked Greg Doudna to explain his exuberant claim that Fred Litwin had, "debunked the Rose Cheramie story."

     Naturally, having previously studied James DiEugenio's detailed critiques of Litwin's work, I was highly skeptical.

     Let me guess.  You read DiEugenio's Litwin essays and there's nothing to see there.  Move along now?  🙄

[David Von Pein]

16 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I beg to differ. 

Naturally.

 

16 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Garrison's investigation was a search for truth. He was after the truth, and MAY HAVE used a man he thought to be innocent--Shaw--as a pawn in a larger game...designed to uncover the truth. 

Which is deplorable and reprehensible activity being engaged in by a U.S. District Attorney. And yet many JFKA conspiracy theorists just love to prop up Garrison as a "hero" of some sort. I can't tell you how many comments I've had on my JFK YouTube channel from people who love to throw the sickening "Garrison was a hero" mantra in my face. I've seen it on my channel literally hundreds of times. And it makes me want to puke every time I see it.

Surely you don't condone such a slimy tactic that you just said Garrison "MAY HAVE used" in the Clay Shaw prosecution (i.e., Garrison puts Shaw on trial even though he has to know Shaw is totally innocent), do you Pat?

 

16 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Specter and Belin, however, felt they had a client--the LBJ Administration---who wanted them to CONCEAL the truth--for which they lied and suborned perjury. And lied until the end.

I beg to differ (naturally).

 

Edited 13 hours ago by David Von Pein

[W. Niederhut]

Just now, Steve Roe said:

No Dr. No. Of course you are evading. 

Let the record show, Dr. Niederhut, a Education Moderator, will not answer why he had to delete his comments about Fred Litwin being a CIA asset, promoting false disinformation. 

Huh?

This is defamatory nonsense.  I never deleted any such comment.

I recently asked Mr. Litwin, a successful sales and marketing professional, if he had ever contracted with any U.S. government-affiliated agencies to denigrate JFKA researchers.