Oswald intended escape

[Ron Ecker]

I just do not understand a masterful conspiracy and cover-up which did not even get to first base in accomplishing its objective.

They did get to first base. They got rid of JFK. They just didn’t get to second base, which was getting rid of Castro. Apparently the arrest of Oswald was a blooper that prevented them from stretching their single into a double. But then the best laid schemes o’ mice and men gang aft a-gley (whatever that means).

There is an interesting Oswald escape scenario in the “confession” of the psychotic Robert Easterling. There are elements of Easterling’s story that not only ring true but have been verified. (There are also ridiculous elements, of course, such as Raul Castro having pictures of all the conspirators on the wall of his den in Havana.) Easterling claimed that he was supposed to pick up Oswald at the bus station at 10:30 am on 11/22 and drive him to Mexico. The Oswald who was working at the TSBD that morning was a lookalike named Carlo (who later rode away with the lone shooter, Manuel Rivera, who was a Castro agent, another ridiculous element of the story). Easterling fled instead of doing his job, leaving Oswald stranded at the bus station.

Something similar to that very well could have happened. Oswald going to the Texas Theater to meet a contact could have been Plan B in case something went wrong with Plan A, whatever Plan A was. But then something also went wrong with Plan B and the rest is history.

Ron

[Harry J.Dean]

Harry, that is a very interesting piece of news. I would have thought

CIA had the technical resources to forge passports without resorting

to theft (which of course warns your target country that somebody has

the real thing). However it does raise the point that someone was in the

position to plant legitimate documents with people traveling openly to

Cuba rather than infiltrating.

I can imagine Oswald found with a Cuban passport on November 22 and

the Cuban government trying to deny they had issued it....I'm sure it would

have had appropriate entry and exit history on it.

-- Larry

quote=Harry J.Dean,May 29 2005, 07:57 AM]

At the risk of bringing up old news (except this point doesn't get nearly enough attention) I'll also point out again that a box full of documents - including motel and telephone records as well as other hard evidence - was turned into the DPD a few weeks after the assassination.  Several officers swore to having seen the material and said that it definitely implicated Oswald as being part of a conspiracy and associated him with Ruby.  The materal was even acknowledged by the DA who was prosecuting Ruby,  however he said it had no bearing on his case so it was of no use to him.  That material has never been seen again.

My speculation is that material included items which would have been planted with Oswald as part of the Cuba/Castro frame but that the plotters didn't get a chance to use it as planned - just one more futile effort to pitch the planned frame after the fact.  The Alvarado incident (with Phillips endorsement) was another attempt to recover the frame. 

Interestingly Jim Hosty swears to this day he was told that Oswald was actually issued a Cuban visa.....its unlikely that Cuba did that but a fake visa may have been put into circulation to generate the story Hosty heard.  You can bet if the plot had worked and this sort of material had been found with a dead Oswald - apparently trying to escape in the direction of Cuba - that there would have been a declaration of war in about the same time it took to vote it through after Pearl Harbor. 

-- Larry

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Hi, Larry

Hosty's statement re; Cuban document{s} etc; reminds me that upon my return

from Cuba while visiting my good friend Joaquin Frerie Cuban Consul,Chicago, he

was 'extremely upset' telling me he was in trouble with Havana/Castro,as several

Blank Cuban Passports were missing/stolen from his office.

Until he was replaced the mystery was never solved. Frerie resigned the diplomatic position and moved to Miami area. Juan Orta and Frerie were long time

friends and diplomats,Orta being Castro's chief of staff. Both resigned as the

Invasion neared. Thought you should know, and I was always concerned.

H. Dean

Miami

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Hi, Larry

The 26th Of July Movement leaders began accusing Cuban Consul Frerie of

being a counterrevolucionary prior to and after the stolen passport problem,

even though Frerie was representing Castro's government very well. If the

passports fell into the hands of my '26th pro-Castro friends' they could have been spread far and wide to serve future urgent actions ? Still a concern this much later.

H. Dean

[Ron Ecker]

In thinking about the Oswald escape scenario, something has occurred to me. This has probably been covered somewhere in the CT literature but I'm just realizing it.

It would seem that it was not intended at all for Oswald to be killed at the scene, as some have theorized. The fact that his jacket was thrown away (i.e. planted) on his way to the theater, and the business of the two (or was it three?) Oswald wallets, meaning that one was planted at the scene of the Tippit murder, indicate that it was planned all along that he be framed for killing Tippit after and in addition to being framed for killing JFK.

Oswald was therefore supposed to get to the Texas Theater (to meet a contact there, so he thought), where cops then came swarming because someone went in possibly without buying a ticket. So the question becomes, was he supposed to be killed in the theater and somebody goofed, or was it planned all along for him to be killed in police custody? If the latter, then it was a lone nut scenario from the beginning (or two nut scenario, since some nut had to kill him in jail), and the theory that Oswald was being used secondarily to frame Castro and prompt an invasion of Cuba goes out the window.

Ron

[Mark Stapleton]

The plans for LHO after the assassination are an interesting point of conjecture. For my part, two things seem apparent, 1. The actions of Ruby were not part of the original plan. That had all the hallmarks of a hastily cobbled together measure

and 2. Despite being estranged from them, I agree with Bill that I doubt LHO would have agreed to fly out of country, leaving his family--although he might have been told that they would be flown out later. This indicates the plotters intended to dispose of him, in Dallas, suitably framed, shortly after the assassination. Under the circumstances, I would assume the most ideal person for this would be someone in the DPD, given their access to swift mobility and a reliable communications network.

That leaves J.D.Tippett and/or the mysterious pair of possibly bogus cops seen by Earlene Roberts in a police car outside the rooming house while LHO was inside. It's possible that's how LHO got to the theatre, although more likely he was picked up by the same vehicle he left Dealey Plaza in. I don't believe he walked (the bus and taxi trips were WC inventions--a simple affair when the subject is deceased--and the wallet and jacket discoveries were plants). Witness statements concerning the Tippett shooting are confusing and contradictory but my best guess is that two were involved, LHO the non-shooter. The bogus police car, escorting the first vehicle from behind, witnesses the whole thing, follows LHO--now on foot -- and radios the base the minute he walks into the theatre. The real shooter arrives at his liason unmolested. As for who and where for LHO, I lean towards the theatre being the preordained place, a touch of historical irony, a little in joke that only the real conspirators can share. Enter the DPD, "Johnny come lately" hats firmly in place, to prove to the horrified conspirators that they can't be trusted to carry out the simplest of murder plots. Despite belated attempts at provocation, Houdini gets taken into custody alive. Martinis get angrily slammed on to wood panelled desks, "Someone get hold of Ruby, goddammit!"

[Bill Cheslock]

In thinking about the Oswald escape scenario, something has occurred to me. This has probably been covered somewhere in the CT literature but I'm just realizing it.

It would seem that it was not intended at all for Oswald to be killed at the scene, as some have theorized. The fact that his jacket was thrown away (i.e. planted) on his way to the theater, and the business of the two (or was it three?) Oswald wallets, meaning that one was planted at the scene of the Tippit murder, indicate that it was planned all along that he be framed for killing Tippit after and in addition to being framed for killing JFK.

Oswald was therefore supposed to get to the Texas Theater (to meet a contact there, so he thought), where cops then came swarming because someone went in possibly without buying a ticket. So the question becomes, was he supposed to be killed in the theater and somebody goofed, or was it planned all along for him to be killed in police custody? If the latter, then it was a lone nut scenario from the beginning (or two nut scenario, since some nut had to kill him in jail), and the theory that Oswald was being used secondarily to frame Castro and prompt an invasion of Cuba goes out the window.

Ron

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John:

The fact that Oswald (real or impostor) had the opportunity to roam areas

unknown after the Tippit murder brings your thoughts to light. I think it was a matter of about 35 minutes that the alleged killer at the Tippit scene took to travel a mere eight blocks to the theater. Where was he hanging out for all that time, especially if he had the ability to travel from his rooming house to the Tippit murder scene, almost a mile, in about eight minutes? Your sentence, "Oswald was therefore supposed to get to the Texas Theater..." makes alot of sense.

If he was to be killed in the theater, there was ample opportunity for

the Dallas police to do so. "Oswald" was alleged to have drawn his pistol as he

was rushed by officers, and Officer MacDonald already had his gun drawn. Just the fact that "Oswald" drew his gun should've been enough motivation for any oficer to shoot him. The fact that he wasn't shot begs the question, did he really

reach for and draw his pistol on the officers? In my opinion, I don't believe the

Dallas police would've held the restraint needed if they saw a pistol being drawn on them.

Bill Cheslock

[James Richards]

If he was to be killed in the theater, there was ample opportunity for

the Dallas police to do so. "Oswald" was alleged to have drawn his pistol as he

was rushed by officers, and Officer MacDonald already had his gun drawn. Just the fact that "Oswald" drew his gun should've been enough motivation for any oficer to shoot him. The fact that he wasn't shot begs the question, did he really

reach for and draw his pistol on the officers? In my opinion, I don't believe the

Dallas police would've held the restraint needed if they saw a pistol being drawn on them. (Bill Cheslock)

Hi Bill,

This is a very interesting point. I too have serious doubts that Oswald drew his revolver. To extend that, what real evidence do we have that Oswald had a revolver at all? One, he supposedly shot Tippit which I don't believe for one moment. Two, he supposedly collected his revolver when he went back to his rooming house; and the only evidence that he did collect his revolver is that he supposedly drew it in the Texas Theatre.

Several DPD claim he drew a gun but police have been known to lie, as shocking as that may be.

Given the tension and emotion of the President being shot and one of their own going down, I too find it difficult to believe the DPD showed restraint when the suspect supposedly pulled a gun on them.

Can we really trust any of the so-called evidence collected immediately after LHO's arrest?

James

[Tim Gratz]

Ron wrote:

. . .and the theory that Oswald was being used secondarily to frame Castro and prompt an invasion of Cuba goes out the window.

Obviously this theory is inconsistent with a "Fidel did it scenario". If it was someone like Morales combined with Rosselli, then I agree with James that the motivation was more likely pure hatred toward Kennedy.

This would also mean that what was going on in Mexico City may have had nothing to do with creating the "legend" of Oswald as a patsy. I think the Mexico City operation was a legitimate CIA operation.

What if Oswald was being used by the CIA or FBI as an agent provocateur to draw out either left-wingers OR right-wingers who wanted to kill Kennedy? He (or an imposter using his credentials) goes to Mexico City and offers to kill Kennedy on behalf of Cuba (and, presumably, they did not take the bait). He is also circulated among anti-Castro exiles in Louisiana and Texas with talk of killing Kennedy to see if an anti-Castro exile would contact him about that (witness the Odio incident).

[Ron Ecker]

I am in the process of gradually reading Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, and so far the cumulative evidence looks compelling to me that there were two Oswalds, raised from childhood to be intelligence assets, with Harvey being the one who spoke Russian, kept spouting leftist political stuff, went to Russia, and was shot by Ruby, and Lee being the taller, more muscular Oswald. It also seems clear that the FBI and Warren Commission realized there were two Oswalds, as it became obvious in researching "his" life, and they had to patch together one story from two conflicting ones. If this is in fact the case, trying to construct any scenario about Oswald, regarding his planned escape or anything else, may be futile without keeping in mind that there were two of them.

So far I'm only to the point in the book where they are both in the Marines (with fellow Marines remembering one quite differently than the other), but as I read on I'm sure the evidence is just going to keep piling up.

Ron

[James Richards]

I am in the process of gradually reading Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, and so far the cumulative evidence looks compelling to me that there were two Oswalds, raised from childhood to be intelligence assets, with Harvey being the one who spoke Russian, kept spouting leftist political stuff, went to Russia, and was shot by Ruby, and Lee being the taller, more muscular Oswald. It also seems clear that the FBI and Warren Commission realized there were two Oswalds, as it became obvious in researching "his" life, and they had to patch together one story from two conflicting ones. If this is in fact the case, trying to construct any scenario about Oswald, regarding his planned escape or anything else, may be futile without keeping in mind that there were two of them.

So far I'm only to the point in the book where they are both in the Marines (with fellow Marines remembering one quite differently than the other), but as I read on I'm sure the evidence is just going to keep piling up.

Ron

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Ron,

I think I have the Armstrong Lee and Harvey correct below.

James

[Ron Ecker]

James,

Thanks for the photo comparison. I don't think it's hard to imagine that someone who had never heard of Lee Harvey Oswald would say that these two photos are two different people.

Ron

[Tim Gratz]

Larry wrote:

But the Cuba/USSR story kept being pushed, as if someone's agenda was war DESPITE the "official" line about a lone nut. And, at least in MY opinion, it took someone in a powerful position to make that happen.

Larry, assuming it was NOT in fact a Castro plot, regardless of whether the motivation of the plotters was to "frame" Fidel, is it not possible, indeed likely, that given LHO's background some anti-Castro Cubans (who were not part of the conspiracy) could have decided to plant stories linking LHO to Castro to spark an invasion of Cuba? Thus there could have been "evidence" planted by the conspirators as well as "evidence" planted by people not part of the conspiracy. Indeed, the non-conspirators planting the evidence could have sincerely believed that Castro was behind the assassination given LHO's apparent political allegiances.

[Tim Gratz]

Given Oswald's movements, e.g. his casual but immediate exit from the TSBD after Truly told him the President had been shot, it seems clear (perfectly clear?) that LHO knew something was going on. He probably realized almost immediately that he was being "set up" as the "patsy".

Query your opinion whether he played a guilty or innocent role in the assassination.

I think he probably smuggled the rifle into the building but he could have performed this act without knowing it was going to be used in a plot to kill the president. (See my suggested scenario re how a patriotic Oswald could have been "suckered" into smuggling the rifle into the TSBD.)

Query, though, could LHO have saved himself his fate by telling everything he knew while he was in police custody? You'd better believe the conspirators were sweating bullets while LHO was being interrogated, and waiting for Ruby to do his "duty".

Of course if the scenario I suggested above is close to what happened, LHO may have not known enough to identify any of the actual conspirators.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[James Richards]

Query, though, could LHO have saved himself his fate by telling everything he knew while he was in police custody? You'd better believe the conspirators were sweating bullets while LHO was being interrogated. Of course if the scenario I suggested above is close to what happened, LHO may have not known enough to identify any of the actual conspirators. (Tim Gratz)

Hi Tim,

Seeing that no law enforcement officer took any notes or recorded any interview, I guess we don't really know what Oswald told them. Maybe he did tell them something; something that sealed his fate.

The conspirators would have had ears present during LHO's interview and I'm sure they were well aware of what he was saying.

If Oswald had remained tight lipped then the conspirators may have considered waiting and getting him later. The accused assassin of the President found hanging in his cell is a believable story. They could have sold the public that he became depressed and ultimately suicidal.

The fact that the conspirators were forced to have Ruby whack him while in police custody and under guard suggests that Oswald's immediate termination became a priority. Maybe Oswald did drop some names to test the water during his interview. If he did, then that might explain the rush job to kill him rather than wait.

James

[Tim Gratz]

The second line of this thread is "Was Oswald Going to Cuba?"

How could any of us know that?

However, if he WAS bound for Cuba, then he must have been a conspirator and Fidel must have been the "big fish".

I suspect, however, that the scenario was either that he was to be killed while being captured in Dallas or killed after he was taken outside of the country. If as James suggested, the gravamen of the plot was pure hatred of JFK rather than a real effort to frame Fidel, then it would probably have been sufficient if Oswald had simply disappeared. Given his background and his apparent presence in Mexico City seeking a VISA, everyone would have assumed he was in Cuba.

[Tim Gratz]

To James:

I think it may assume a conspiracy too vast to presume the conspirators had someone present during Oswald's interrogation. Granted, anything is possible.

Or do you have a specific candidate for the police or FBI spy?

Edited May 30, 2005 by Tim Gratz