Oswald intended escape

[Harry J.Dean]

Harry, that is a very interesting piece of news. I would have thought

CIA had the technical resources to forge passports without resorting

to theft (which of course warns your target country that somebody has

the real thing). However it does raise the point that someone was in the

position to plant legitimate documents with people traveling openly to

Cuba rather than infiltrating.

I can imagine Oswald found with a Cuban passport on November 22 and

the Cuban government trying to deny they had issued it....I'm sure it would

have had appropriate entry and exit history on it.

-- Larry

quote=Harry J.Dean,May 29 2005, 07:57 AM]

At the risk of bringing up old news (except this point doesn't get nearly enough attention) I'll also point out again that a box full of documents - including motel and telephone records as well as other hard evidence - was turned into the DPD a few weeks after the assassination.  Several officers swore to having seen the material and said that it definitely implicated Oswald as being part of a conspiracy and associated him with Ruby.  The materal was even acknowledged by the DA who was prosecuting Ruby,  however he said it had no bearing on his case so it was of no use to him.  That material has never been seen again.

My speculation is that material included items which would have been planted with Oswald as part of the Cuba/Castro frame but that the plotters didn't get a chance to use it as planned - just one more futile effort to pitch the planned frame after the fact.  The Alvarado incident (with Phillips endorsement) was another attempt to recover the frame. 

Interestingly Jim Hosty swears to this day he was told that Oswald was actually issued a Cuban visa.....its unlikely that Cuba did that but a fake visa may have been put into circulation to generate the story Hosty heard.  You can bet if the plot had worked and this sort of material had been found with a dead Oswald - apparently trying to escape in the direction of Cuba - that there would have been a declaration of war in about the same time it took to vote it through after Pearl Harbor. 

-- Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Larry

Hosty's statement re; Cuban document{s} etc; reminds me that upon my return

from Cuba while visiting my good friend Joaquin Frerie Cuban Consul,Chicago, he

was 'extremely upset' telling me he was in trouble with Havana/Castro,as several

Blank Cuban Passports were missing/stolen from his office.

Until he was replaced the mystery was never solved. Frerie resigned the diplomatic position and moved to Miami area. Juan Orta and Frerie were long time

friends and diplomats,Orta being Castro's chief of staff. Both resigned as the

Invasion neared. Thought you should know, and I was always concerned.

H. Dean

Miami

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Larry

The 26th Of July Movement leaders began accusing Cuban Consul Frerie of

being a counterrevolucionary prior to and after the stolen passport problem,

even though Frerie was representing Castro's government very well. If the

passports fell into the hands of my '26th pro-Castro friends' they could have been spread far and wide to serve future urgent actions ? Still a concern this much later.

H. Dean

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Larry

While on the Cuba trip to gather certain Intelligence as explained in the

Manuscript/book YROJ connection, I carried information from Cuba Consul

Freire,to Juan Orta[Castro's chief of staff} that I assume contained vital info.

no doubt serving to give a very close Invasion date,that occured near

six months later. Three days before the invasion Orta quit, seeking the protection

of the Venezuelan Embassy in Havana, at the time Frerie resigned as Consul of Cuba in Chicago. Have you any info. on what later happened to Orta?

Harry

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

Bortholomew in his part 3 mentions a DOD decentralization plan that involved Red Bird Airport. Do we know who was involved in making decisions re: this plan?

... appreciative friend of Byrd's was Arthur Andrew Collins, the

founder of the Collins Radio Company. Byrd, along with John D.

Rockefeller, Jr., was a financier of his cousin Admiral Richard E.

Byrd's polar expeditions by air. A mountain range at the South Pole is

named the Harold Byrd Mountains in his honor.335 Some of that money went

for the purchase of radio equipment and technical support from Arthur

Collins. The 1933 expedition was the first big break for the young

Collins Radio Company of Cedar Rapids Iowa.336

In May 1951 Collins began an expansion program to build a one-million

dollar plant near the Dallas suburb of Richardson. A hanger was leased

at nearby Red Bird Airport to install and repair airborne equipment. The

move was due to a decentralization plan urged by the Defense Department

for security reasons.337

According to Dick Russell, "At about 1:OO p.m. on the afternoon of

November 22, half an hour after the president was shot, neighbors who

lived along the road that runs by the little Redbird [sic] private

airport began calling police. A twin-engine plane, they reported, was

out there behaving very peculiarly. For an hour it had been revving its

engines, not on the runway but parked at the end of the airstrip on a

grassy area next to the fence. The noise prevented nearby residents from

hearing their TVs, as news came over about the terrible events in

downtown Dallas. But the police were too busy to check it out, and

shortly thereafter the plane took off....

"Louis Gaudin, the government's air traffic control specialist at

Redbird [sic] airport...recalled observing three men in business suits

board a Comanche-type aircraft at about 2:00 p.m. on November 22, head

north, then return with only two occupants, where they were met by a

Dallas policeman named Haake."338...

[James Richards]

"Louis Gaudin, the government's air traffic control specialist at

Redbird [sic] airport...recalled observing three men in business suits

board a Comanche-type aircraft at about 2:00 p.m. on November 22, head

north, then return with only two occupants, where they were met by a

Dallas policeman named Haake." (Nathaniel Heidenheimer)

I gather this Dallas cop was Kenneth H. Haake; a pretty interesting character as he was involved in some action packed arrests during the 1950's. His father was Navy man Jack Haake.

FWIW.

James

[Greg Parker]

Greg Parker has on another thread alluded to the possibility of Oswald being flown to Cuba after the assassination to link it with Castro.

John, I missed this when it was first posted. Just to clarify... I think I said "flown out of the country" or words to that effect. If I said Cuba, I wasn't paying attention to what I was typing! I should also say that it's not a scenario I came up with -- but it's the most credible one out there, imo. It does fit nicely with where my research was going.

I think this is quite plausible, it really ties in. Oswald goes to Cuban embassy to get visa for later date, he gives Marina what money he has as he knows that he will be going away.

I theorize that Oswald did not know about the assassination and was told that he was going to Cuba on the day in question. After the assassination he becomes suspicious and misses his appointment at the airport.

It is possible that one group involved in plotting the assassination wanted the assassination linked to castro and another group didnt, and so Oswald was given over to the police in the Texas Theatre so that the preplanned trip to Cuba would not go ahead and so stop the link between oswald and Castro.

I wonder who was to fly Oswald to Cuba..........Ferrie?

Any speculation to this theory?

John

At the risk of bringing up old news (except this point doesn't get nearly enough attention) I'll also point out again that a box full of documents - including motel and telephone records as well as other hard evidence - was turned into the DPD a few weeks after the assassination. Several officers swore to having seen the material and said that it definitely implicated Oswald as being part of a conspiracy and associated him with Ruby. The materal was even acknowledged by the DA who was prosecuting Ruby, however he said it had no bearing on his case so it was of no use to him. That material has never been seen again.

My speculation is that material included items which would have been planted with Oswald as part of the Cuba/Castro frame but that the plotters didn't get a chance to use it as planned - just one more futile effort to pitch the planned frame after the fact. The Alvarado incident (with Phillips endorsement) was another attempt to recover the frame.

Interestingly Jim Hosty swears to this day he was told that Oswald was actually issued a Cuban visa.....its unlikely that Cuba did that but a fake visa may have been put into circulation to generate the story Hosty heard. You can bet if the plot had worked and this sort of material had been found with a dead Oswald - apparently trying to escape in the direction of Cuba - that there would have been a declaration of war in about the same time it took to vote it through after Pearl Harbor.

-- Larry

I don't get here as often as I used to, so I'm grateful you did repeat the info, Larry.

[Greg Parker]

Many people on this Forum apparently believe in the alteration of JFK's wounds, the control of the autopsy, false autopsy photos, planting of false leads prior to the assassination, the use of an Oswald impersonator, the use of sophisticated silencer-equipped weapons, etc. etc. all suggesting a rather sophisticated conspiracy

Tim, can you name any of the "many" who believe all of those things?

Will you be lumping in those who give credence to the "frame Castro" scenario with the "Elvis ain't dead" crowd next?

--and yet the plot to link Oswald to Cuba just inexplicably fell apart, and the entire object of killing Kennedy (at the risk of capital punishment) failed at the very get-go.

Not inexplicably. It fell apart because Oswald got himself taken alive.

A masterful conspiracy that failed in its most important objective: framing Castro and and stimulating an invasion of Cuba.

I may be Robinson Crusoe here, but I don't consider it was masterful.

A plot that caused the invasion that the Kennedys were planning (more on this later) to be canceled. So the whole assassination backfired. Most have been pretty unhappy conspirators. Morales must have kicked himself clear round the block.

I'll comment when I see the "more".

Am I dense, or is there something about this that just does not make any sense whatsoever?

It makes more sense to me that the conspirators had a different objective in mind; that they intended Oswald to be shot and killed during the capture (perhaps by Tippitt); that they knew Oswald was working for US intelligence (as Larry suggests in his book) and so they knew that Washington would not want the assassination fully investigated. One possibility is that Castro (or pro-Castro Cubans) were involved. If so, their motive succeeded.

A second would be that it was a mob hit the motive was to stop RFK's prosecution of the mob. If so, the mob's motive also succeeded.

I just do not understand a masterful conspiracy and cover-up which did not even get to first base in accomplishing its objective. If that is what happened the conspirators were not evil geniuses-- they were evil idiots.

The "masterful" conspiracy is your invention, Tim. Dallas was used to conspiracies and cover-ups. When you control the evidence, and you have a compliant media and judiciary, why do you need to plan for any potential problems? They didn't grasp that this was not going to be as easy to pull off as say, planting pot on Candy Barr had been.

I would appreciate your comments.

[Greg Parker]

This possibility of Oswald either planning to leave the U.S. after the assassination,

or his handlers permitting him to believe this would be the case is discussed in

Mark North's book, "Act Of Treason."

North writes;

"Wayne January.....ran a plane rental business at Red Bird Airport (near Dallas)....

two days before the assassination he was approached by two men and a woman, who inquired about renting an aircraft on Friday, November 22, to go to Mexico. He did not like the look of them and did not rent them a plane. After the assassination, when he saw Oswald on television, he thought he strongly resembled one of the men who had been at the airport. He gave this information to the FBI. Could this be the real Oswald, being duped into thinking that as a result of his cooperation in the coming protest he will be given passage to Cuba or Mexico? Or is it the contract people simply arranging for the look-alike exit?"

(p. 369)

I tend to believe this was an impostor Oswald setting up the patsy with yet another siting which could be argued as the would be assassin planning his escape

after the assassination. My reason for believing this and not the real Oswald being at Red Bird is the thought that, would Oswald actually leave his wife and children in return for taking part in a protest in Dealey Plaza? It doesn't make

sense to me.

Bill Cheslock

Bill, I have strong reservations about January's story as related in some books. The FBI report (dated 11/29/63) stated that the approach about a flight to Mexico happened in late July, and that the best January could say was that one of the men somewhat resembled Oswald.

Jim Lehrer wrote the following story on the incident for the Dallas Times Herald dated 12/20/63.

[/b]The operator of a Dallas flying service said Friday he was approached last summer by a man

who looked like Lee Harvey Oswald and two other persons about a charter flight to the Mexican

island of Cozumel - about 175 miles from the coast of Cuba.

The aviation executive, who asked that his name not be used, told The Times Herald that the

trio came to his office at a South Dallas County airport late July or early August.

"They wanted to charter a plane - with pilot - to fly five passengers," he said. "I got the

impression they wanted to go in September or October."

No deal was made and they left after he told them "to check back when the time came to go."

He never saw them again.

The Dallas man, a pilot, said he was suspicious of the contact from the beginning. "I got

the definite impression that it might be a one-way trip - for me," he said.

He emphasized that he could not positively identify the man as Oswald because he stayed in

the car outside during the brief conversation.

The other two people - a man and woman - came inside the office. The executive described the

couple as being young, possibly in their late 20's or early 30's.

"I had not seen them before in my life, nor have I seen them since," said the aviation man.

About the man in the car, he said, "His profile was just like Oswald's - at least from the

pictures I saw in the papers and on television and later from a photograph the FBI showed me."

He said the FBI visited him shortly after the assassination of President Kennedy and showed

him the picture.

"I told them the same thing I'm telling you now," he said. "It looked like him, but I

couldn't say for sure."

The incident stuck in his mind because there was nothing "normal about the whole thing."

"They were driving an old model car and they didn't look like they had a lot of money," he

said. "But they seemed completely unconcerned about what the cost of such a trip would be."

What significance the FBI has been able to place in the charter plane occurrence - if the man

was indeed, Oswald - could not be learned.

Also, it could not be determined if the couple who went to the flying service office have

been identified.

He said he was not interested in their business for the apparent danger it presented to him

and also because he felt he probably wouldn't ever collect his money.

The man who did the talking was hesitant and evasive at first on exactly where in Mexico they

wanted to go. After some prodding, he finally named Cozumel.

Cozumel, off the east coast of the Mexican province of Yucatan, is the closest point in

Mexico to Cuba.

Oswald, accused assassin of President Kennedy, had been a vocal supporter of Fidel Castro's

Communist island. He served both in Dallas and New Orleans as an active member of the Fair Play

for Cuba Committee, a pro-Castro group.

As for Mexico, it has been reported that he did make a trip to Mexico during the latter week

of September, crossing over the border at Laredo on Sept. 26 and returning to Dallas Oct. 3.

Oswald reportedly visited the Cuban embassy in Mexico City and demanded a travel visa to

Cuba. He was turned down.

Though the pilot/executive is anonymous in the story, it is the same story January gave to the FBI. I realise that some here believe that the person interviewed was actually a partner of January's... but in that case, why does the person relate the story as if it were their own... even to the extent of saying, "I told them [the FBI] the same thing I'm telling you now..."?

I believe the other incident at Redbird is the one that is potentially relevant so far as any one way trip out of the country for Oswald goes. January, to my mind, indulged certain authors many. many years after the fact by telling them what they wanted to hear.