Oswald intended escape

[James Richards]

To James:

I think it may assume a conspiracy too vast to presume the conspirators had someone present during Oswald's interrogation.  Granted, anything is possible.

Or do you have a specific candidate for the police or FBI spy?

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Tim,

I don't have any specific candidate but submit that once LHO was arrested, the plotters would have been desperately working on knowing what was being said in that interview room.

Like you mentioned, they would have been sweating bullets and men capable of successfully plotting the assassination of the President don't strike me as being reactive but completely proactive.

I would imagine the scramble was on while LHO was being driven back to police headquarters. They may have even bugged the room. Who knows?

James

[Tim Gratz]

I know it has been reported that someone (arguably Rosselli) called Melvin Belli's firm from the Desert Inn in Vegas to engage Belli on Ruby's behalf. I guess they dared not make the call until the deed was done though and as I recall (Larry or someone can correct me) the call was made on Monday, November 25th.

James wrote:

They may have even bugged the room. Who knows?

James, bugging the room without the consent of a person in authority with the DPD would have been illegal.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Ron Ecker]

LHO may have not known enough to identify any of the actual conspirators.

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If there were two Oswalds, what Oswald knew about Oswald may have been on a "need to know" basis.

Ron

[Greg Wagner]

To James:

I think it may assume a conspiracy too vast to presume the conspirators had someone present during Oswald's interrogation.  Granted, anything is possible.

Or do you have a specific candidate for the police or FBI spy?

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Tim,

I don't have any specific candidate but submit that once LHO was arrested, the plotters would have been desperately working on knowing what was being said in that interview room.

Like you mentioned, they would have been sweating bullets and men capable of successfully plotting the assassination of the President don't strike me as being reactive but completely proactive.

I would imagine the scramble was on while LHO was being driven back to police headquarters. They may have even bugged the room. Who knows?

James

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Hi James-

I had never really considered this, but it's a very interesting point. Wasn't Oswald also interrogated at DPD by the FBI? I'm sure some knowledgeable Forum member has a list of the individuals present throughout LHO's questioning. Even at a local level, Earl Cabell, HL Hunt, and Murchison would have had sufficient clout to put/have a man on the inside. Just thinking out loud.

One thing is certain, if LHO's arrest was unanticipated by the plotters, James is 100% correct: "they would have been sweating bullets and men capable of successfully plotting the assassination of the President don't strike me as being reactive but completely proactive."

Below is a description of some of Oswald's Texas Theater activities (http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr198-jfk.html). The author appears to have some Lee v. Harvey suggestions going on here as well:

Researcher Jones Harris interviewed Julia Postal in 1963. When Harris asked Julia Postal if she had sold a ticket to "Oswald" (the man arrested), she burst into tears and left the room. A short time later Harris again asked Postal if she sold a ticket to "Oswald" and got the same response. From Postal's refusal to answer this question and her reaction to same, Harris believes that Postal did sell "Oswald" a theater ticket. On February 29, 1964 Postal told FBI Agent Arthur Carter "she was unable to recall whether or not he bought a ticket." (A few months later, when the Warren Report was issued, Postal's memory had improved. She was now certain the man did not buy a ticket. See page 178 of the report.)

Butch Burroughs, an employee of the Texas Theater, heard someone enter the theater shortly after 1:00 PM and go to the balcony. Harvey Oswald had apparently entered the theater and gone to the balcony without being seen by Burroughs. About 1:15 PM Harvey came down from the balcony and bought popcorn from Burroughs. Burroughs watched him walk down the aisle and take a seat on the main floor. He sat next to Jack Davis during the opening credits of the first movie, several minutes before 1:20 PM. Harvey then moved across the aisle and sat next to another man. A few minutes later Davis noticed he moved again and sat next to a pregnant woman. Just before the police arrived, the pregnant woman went to the balcony and was never seen again. In addition to Harvey there were seven people watching the movie on the main level (six after the pregnant woman left). Within 10 minutes, he had sat next to half of them.

We have followed the probable movements of the man wearing the "brown shirt," Harvey Oswald, from the Book Depository, to the bus, to the cab and to the rooming house. We still don't know how he managed to get from the rooming house to the Texas Theater without being seen. What about Lee Oswald, the man wearing the "white shirt," and possibly seen by Arnold Rowland in the west end window of the 6th floor shortly before the assassination?

If the above account is accurate, it appears from his movements within the theater that he was looking for someone (his "contact"?).

So, are there two schools of thought here:

1) LHO was never supposed to make it to the TT, but was told to go there by his "handler" after the motorcade on 11/22 as a contingency? A redundancy built into the operational plan, so that if "they" didn't get Oswald as planned, at least they knew where he'd be. But the DPD got there too quickly, before they could whack him? Or maybe there was a DPD officer in the arresting posse who was charged with this task, but circumstances made it impossible for him to carry out such a plan?

2) It wasn't part of the plan to eliminate LHO in Dallas. "They" were planning to get him to Cuba. LHO was at the TT to meet someone who would arrange this, but the DPD got there first.

Do I understand the two competing theories? Or am I out in left field somewhere?

[Larry Hancock]

James, ironically the only asset the plotters may have had in place with access inside the DPD may have been Jack Ruby. If you take a look at the micro detail of his activities from Nov. 22 it looks very much like his first "new" assignment was to get as close to his DPD contacts as possible to find out to what extent Oswald might be talking. There is even one report of him trying to slide into the interrogation room. And we know he got close enough to know the first transfer was postponed. Then you have him at the brief Oswald "showing". Kantor did a fantastic job on researching his activities and I tried to excerpt and analyse that in the book.

I think the ruse of Ruby was very proactive and although somewhat risky it was only when they decided they had to have him kill Oswald that we see it move to extreme risk for the plotters. Ruby was very likely selected because of his DPD access in the first place...I don't think you have to look all that far for your spie.

And the timing of his inbound mystery calls and his call to L.A. pretty clearly show the direction of the orders.

In regard to Tim's comment, the call in regard to Ruby's defense came after he was in custody and was from Vegas to Belli's law partner. Belli was in court at the time defending one of his many mob associated clients. Hinckle and Turner are the primary source for the call although much work has also been done outlining Belli's fondness for mob figures and long term association with them.

-- Larry

To James:

I think it may assume a conspiracy too vast to presume the conspirators had someone present during Oswald's interrogation.  Granted, anything is possible.

Or do you have a specific candidate for the police or FBI spy?

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Tim,

I don't have any specific candidate but submit that once LHO was arrested, the plotters would have been desperately working on knowing what was being said in that interview room.

Like you mentioned, they would have been sweating bullets and men capable of successfully plotting the assassination of the President don't strike me as being reactive but completely proactive.

I would imagine the scramble was on while LHO was being driven back to police headquarters. They may have even bugged the room. Who knows?

James

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[Ron Ecker]

Belli was in court at the time defending one of his many mob associated clients.  Hinckle and Turner are the primary source for the call although much work has also been done outlining Belli's fondness for mob figures and long term association with them.

I remember reading that Belli tried to get the role of Don Corleone in "The Godfather" movie. I don't know what his qualifications were supposed to be except that he knew a lot of gangsters, and I suppose he acted well in the courtroom. Anyway he lost out to a better actor.

Ron

[James Richards]

James, ironically the only asset the plotters may have had in place with access inside the DPD may have been Jack Ruby. If you take a look at the micro detail of his activities from Nov. 22 it looks very much like his first "new" assignment was to get as close to his DPD contacts as possible to find out to what extent Oswald might be talking. There is even one report of him trying to slide into the interrogation room. And we know he got close enough to know the first transfer was postponed. Then you have him at the brief Oswald "showing". Kantor did a fantastic job on researching his activities and I tried to excerpt and analyse that in the book.

I think the ruse of Ruby was very proactive and although somewhat risky it was only when they decided they had to have him kill Oswald that we see it move to extreme risk for the plotters. Ruby was very likely selected because of his DPD access in the first place...I don't think you have to look all that far for your spie.

And the timing of his inbound mystery calls and his call to L.A. pretty clearly show the direction of the orders.

In regard to Tim's comment, the call in regard to Ruby's defense came after he was in custody and was from Vegas to Belli's law partner. Belli was in court at the time defending one of his many mob associated clients. Hinckle and Turner are the primary source for the call although much work has also been done outlining Belli's fondness for mob figures and long term association with them.

Thanks, Larry, most interesting.

Having Oswald in custody was obviously not what the conspirators desired but I still believe they would not have panicked and I agree with what you say regarding Ruby.

It seems to me that if during his interview, Oswald remained silent regarding the plot, then they would have waited to get him in a more conducive environment. If Oswald did say something then termination became a priority.

*****************

Greg,

It seems to me that there could have only been two possible plans for Oswald. One, is that he was to be killed in Dallas and if that was the case, then one could speculate that unpleasantness was to transpire at the TSBD.

Second, he was to be taken out of Dallas and killed in a way to implicate Castro. With that, we can speculate whether or not Tippit was involved or whether Oswald was supposed to meet someone at the Texas Theatre.

Given that, it seems to me that if Oswald was picked up on Elm by the man driving the Rambler, then the plotters would have him and I don't see them letting him go. This is why I think the LHO impersonator (maybe the one firing from the 6th floor of the TSBD) was involved in that incident.

That leaves Oswald casually leaving the scene and from that point, it is anyone's guess what really happened.

James

[Tim Gratz]

This may very well be a report long ago "put to bed" but I recently read, in a book, of a witness who claimed to have seen Ruby handing LHO a pistol after the assassination.

Does anybody remember this report? Has it been discredited?

The speculation in the book is that Oswald was given a pistol with a defective firing pin so if he ended up in a gun battle with the police he would be history.

IF the plot was to frame Castro, I doubt whether the plotters would actually take him to Cuba. Why not kill him and bury his body (even in the US) but leave the implication (perhaps supported by planted evidence) that he had fled to Cuba.

[James Richards]

This may very well be a report long ago "put to bed" but I recently read, in a book, of a witness who claimed to have seen Ruby handing LHO a pistol after the assassination.

Does anybody remember this report?  Has it been discredited?

The speculation in the book is that Oswald was given a pistol with a defective firing pin so if he ended up in a gun battle with the police he would be history.

IF the plot was to frame Castro, I doubt whether the plotters would actually take him to Cuba.  Why not kill him and bury his body (even in the US) but leave the implication (perhaps supported by planted evidence) that he had fled to Cuba.

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I do recall such a report but can't find a reference. If I remember correctly, it might have been two teenage girls who supposedly witnessed Ruby handing a gun to Oswald.

I too seriously doubt that Oswald would have made it to Cuba. Miami would have been about as far as he got. Speculation here but several known G2 agents may have been whacked as well giving the impression of a Communist conspiracy.

James

[Tim Gratz]

I'll try to find the reference to it and post it tomorrow.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

IF the plot was to frame Castro, I doubt whether the plotters would actually take him to Cuba.  Why not kill him and bury his body (even in the US) but leave the implication (perhaps supported by planted evidence) that he had fled to Cuba.

Bravo, Tim!  Precisely!  Now who was responsible for generating the "planted evidence" for such a departure to Cuba?  And who tried to stick with that program, despite Oswald's arrest, reporting the [prefabricated but suddenly problematic] story about the delayed Cubana flight and the mysterious Havana-bound passenger?  But since Oswald was in custody, it was necessary to insert into the scenario another generic Castro proxy.  Enter Policarpo.

It all fell apart with Oswald's arrest.  So long as he was MIA, CIA could have reported he was anywhere, specifically Havana.  But when Oswald ended up in Dallas Police custody, it was no longer possible to insist that he was in Havana.  The only way to salvage the meticulously orchestrated Castro-did-it scenario?  Enter Policarpo.  He was no more a shooter than Oswald had been, but desperate times called for desperate measures.

Well done, Tim.  That wasn't so hard, was it?

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[Ron Ecker]

The story according to an FBI report is that some young Hispanic women watched the motorcade from the window of a sewing room in which they worked across the street from the TSBD. They were acquainted with Ruby, whom they saw walking up and down the street (apparently unnoticed by everyone else in Dealey Plaza), and they knew Oswald "who apparently spoke Spanish well and ate with them at a nearby restaurant." (Yes, that sounds like Lee, that sociable rascal.) When Oswald came out of the TSBD, they saw Ruby give him a pistol. The girls were afraid to contact the DPD.

This story was told to the FBI by Mrs. Evelyn Harris, who got the story from Mrs. Lucy Lopez, who was a neighbor of an aunt Harris was visiting and who got the story from her daughter, allegedly one of the Dealey Plaza sewing room girls.

Ron

[Gary Buell]

If Castro was behind the assassination why on earth would he use someone with such an obvious trail leading directly to him? By the way Tim I would be interested in your evaluation of the Cuban elements related in Will Fritz and the Dallas Mafia by Jim Gatewood. Supposedly, as memory serves, LHO was flown to Cuba before the assassination by Ferrie and had a night of passion with a beautiful Cuban agent. Gatewood appears to believe that the Mafia and Castro were both involved in the assassination.

[John Geraghty]

I have been reading matthew Smiths new book 'The Kennedys- The conspiracy to destroy a dynasty' which details marilyn monroes murder, JFK and bobbys murders and chappaquiddick. I must say I have been waiting for a book like this to come along that deals with the kennedy 'curse' in this way.

Anyway Matthew smith has some interesting vies as to what oswald was to do after the assassination, assuming he didnt know it was going to happen.

'He was scheduled to leave the depository after the motorcade has passed and make his way to his lodgings, where he could change and pick up a revolver. He would meet a police officer at a designated rendezvous, whose task was to transport him in a police car to red bird airfield, where his plane and pilot would be waiting for him. As far as the conspirators were concerned, he had on ly to take off to confirm to the authorities that he had been the presidents assassin, sent by Castro, to whom he was attempting to return.'

To those unfamiliar with matthew smiths books 'jfk: the second plot' and 'jfk:say goodbye to america' , he had come in contact with Wayne January who worked at red bird in 1963 who told him of a Cuban man that was preparing his plane. The man told January that there was plot to kill the president and said something like I told you so afterwards. I dont think wayne january is his real name, as Smith says in his book.

Another part of the theory involves Tippit.

'Officer J.D. Tippit, although he didnt realise it was the hero of the hour. He was the police officer meant to take Lee Harvey Oswald to the small red bird airfield, only about a fifteen minute drive away , and he was entirely responsible for the 'Cuba' part of the conspirators plan going awry. Totally innocent in any part of the plot to kill the president. he had , no doubt, been listening to the APB put out while he was waiting to give a ride to this young CIA man who , he had been told, needed to get to red bird airfield at a time the traffic on the roads might prove troublesome. Officer Tippit began to think. Why had he been pressed into helping out when very other car had responded to instructions to proceed to downtown Dallas? What if this was all a cover for the presidents killer to make his escape.?'

He then theorises that Tippit wet to question the man he was to pick up, he was shot by a concealed man who was there to ensure that the pick-up went underway. Oswald and the killer ran in sererate directions.

Oswald was to have thought that his trip to Cuba was a genuine CIA mission, he went to the nearest theatre to meet his handler.

It is said in the book that a witness says that one man was escorted by police at the back of the theatre, perhaps this man was his contact?

Interesting speculation, but I dont understand why the conspirators would use Tippit if he was not in on it

John

[Tim Gratz]

Gary wrote:

If Castro was behind the assassination why on earth would he use someone with such an obvious trail leading directly to him?

Gary, IMO, because Castro (and/or KGB) knew that LHO's connections were to US intelligence. Speculation on my part but I suspect Castro had photographs of Desmond Fitzgerald walking into the Paris safe house to meet Cubela and had a tape of Fitzgerald telling Cubela that Robert Kennedy endorsed Cubela's plot to kill Castro. I also speculate that information was communicated to RFK.

In any event, if Oswald had ties to US intelligence, then he was not made a patsy by anyone who was aware of those ties. That seems pretty clear to me.

This would not neccessarily exclude a rogue CIA agent unaware of those ties.