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The Fidel Castro theory


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This thread is GUARANTEED to be swamped by disinformation, so I will keep this short and direct:

The problem with Tim Gratz's theory is that hinges on Santo Trafficante.

Trafficante had shadowy dealings with organized crime in the US and he had running interests in Cuba.

By twisting the limited record, he can be linked to Castro's agents.....but...

It is just as easy, or easier, to see that TRAFFICANTE was linked to Carlos Marcello, Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli.....

In Fact, isn't it more likely that TRAFFICANTE was in bed with BEBE REBOZO and RICHARD NIXON, because of his Florida organized crime connections with MEYER LANSKY ???

My point is this:

Trafficante may have paid the odd Castro double agent, but if Marita Lorenz is to be believed, it seems that LANSKY, NIXON and TRAFFICANTE sent Frank Sturgis to Dallas with weapons in 1963.

The volume of material Gratz is willing to post never really gets beyond this basic objection, does it.

Gratz relationship with DONALD SEGRETTI and KARL ROVE, as a dirty tricks campus organizer in 1972 --

BUT WATCH OUT --- HERE IT COMES ---- THE TSUNAMI OF B.S. !!!

and published material linking him to a group influencing ARTHUR BREMER

make it imperative that we be SUSPICIOUS of this UNUSUAL member.....

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Well OK, with that sort of set up its hard to resist...grin.

First, a qualification on Trafficante and organized crime, I'd go further Shanet and say he did not just have dealings with organized crime but by 1963 he was organized crime in the SE, inheriting Lansky's network and very efficiently running serious organized crime (the big money stuff like sports gambling and more importantly narcotics). While at one time in Cuba, a relationship with Castro may have been of temporary importance (in part to get out of the country intact) its very much unclear that Castro's ongoing good will was of much importance to Trafficante's business as of 1963. Of course at the time FBI and DEA kept generating headlines that narcotics were coming through Cuba from China but that was a front to cover up the fact that the new source was in SE Asia and the traffic was through Marseille, shifting to Trafficante and Marcello's networks. Interested parties should read "Strength of the Wolf" on this.

I'm well aware of the one FBI informant report about Castro and bolita but I'm not aware of any verificationa and everybody should be cautions about any reports in Miami blaming things on Castro... unless you know a lot of detail about the informant and circumstances. Everybody was trying to nudge the FBI and CIA in the direction of their own agendas.

The big problem here is that viewing any 1959 contacts between Castro and Trafficante in terms of 1963 motivations for Trafficante is probably a mistake. Trafficante was firmly entrenched in 1963 and making good money doing a very conservative crime business.... why in the world would he expose himself for Castro? What's to gain? If he were involved he would have a much more understandable motivation in the standard "get Bobby off our backs" crime motive.

On another point though, I strongly urge you to study Marita Lorenz in detail before relying on anything she says....... especially about the caravan. Read Fonzi's research on her in his book. And consider that she was front page news in Miami during the fall of 1963 because of her paternity legal actions. She had photographers following her around for candid photos. Certainly not the sort of profile I'd want in an assassination caravan to Dallas... never know when the next photographer may show up.

-- Larry

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I can't believe Shanet brought this up again. I thought he would be happy that Tim had finally quieted down. Anyhow, to throw in on this, in Ted Shackley's memoirs he notes that when he took over JMWAVE he discovered that a lot of the anti-Castro Cubans who were making raids on Cuba were using their raids as a cover to smuggle drugs into the U.S. He claims to have shut this down. I believe this is significant. This means to me that these supposed Cuban patriots were primarily working for Trafficante/Lansky and not the CIA. The Frank Sturgis/Lorenz attempt on Castro came way before the CIA had even gave Maheu the pills, but shortly after the word was out that Lansky had put a million bucks on the Beard's head. So from this one can gather that Sturgis was at the vortex of mob/CIA involvement, and was using his connections to Barker and the CIA to conduct mob activity.

Through men like Sturgis, Rosselli and Morales, it could very well be that the assassins thought they were working for the CIA, but were really working for the mob. A wilderness of mirrors.

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Through men like Sturgis, Rosselli and Morales, it could very well be that the assassins thought they were working for the CIA, but were really working for the mob. A wilderness of mirrors.

Or alternately, they thought they were working for the mob but were really working for the CIA.

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Through men like Sturgis, Rosselli and Morales, it could very well be that the assassins thought they were working for the CIA, but were really working for the mob. A wilderness of mirrors.

Or alternately, they thought they were working for the mob but were really working for the CIA.

Or were working directly for the mob, thought they were working indirectly for the CIA, but were really working for Howard Hughes.

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I can't believe Shanet brought this up again.  I thought he would be happy that Tim had finally quieted down.  Anyhow, to throw in on this, in Ted Shackley's memoirs he notes that when he took over JMWAVE he discovered that a lot of the anti-Castro Cubans who were making raids on Cuba were using their raids as a cover to smuggle drugs into the U.S.  He claims to have shut this down. I believe this is significant. This means to me that these supposed Cuban patriots were primarily working for Trafficante/Lansky and not the CIA. 

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/fifty.html

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Or.....were working their own agenda and just shopped the idea around for

anyone else who might think it was a good thing and might want to

contribute...

...sorry,  I couldn't help myself,  its John and Pats fault...grin  Larry

There was a guy who stole the Mona Lisa and got stuck with it. It turned out he was hired to steal the Mona Lisa by a master forger who turned around and sold his FORGERIES to a number of selfish and wealthy SUCKERS. Why sell one stolen Mona Lisa he figured, when you can sell a number of them to people who could never rat you out. Anyhow, I've wondered if something like this didn't happen in Dealey. Some smart S.O.B. (a Maheu-type) used his CIA connections to get a number of Hughes, Hunt, Marcello, Giancana, Hoffa, and Lansky types to pay him to whack Kennedy, with none of them knowing of the other's involvement. I don't know if this is what happened, but it would have worked.

Edited by Pat Speer
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Well GPH has told us before that some folks went back to various people who had talked about how happy they would be of JFK was eliminated. Apparently a few of those folks had mentioned money and afterwards their was an effort to collect.

Which raises the question that some of our favorite names may even have thought they were responsible....

-- Larry

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The problem with Tim Gratz's theory is that hinges on Santo Trafficante.

In my six months here, it seems the real drawback is that, whereas the CIA originators of the "theory" - and its subsequent flacks and flunkies - actually tried to put some meat on the bones, Tim refuses to put in that degree of effort.  Ultimately, both they and Tim may be equally wrong, but arguing against Tim's unsubstantiated smoke and vapor quickly becomes pointless.  At least Langley tried to substantiate its own nonsense, before all its wafer-thin "proofs" evaporated under the slightest scrutiny.  I have yet to read a post of Tim's where he has bothered to acquaint himself with the very "evidence" upon which he purports to base his rants.

I had always assumed that Tim's source material was the discredited stuff issued by Langley and its multiple mouthpieces.  However, upon discovering the attached item, I am now convinced the source of Tim's evidence-free material - just as credible as Langley's - originates much closer to his home... just up the I-95 from Key West in Boca Raton.

Edited by Robert Charles-Dunne
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Yup, he's confessed!

Never dismiss anything you read in a tabloid!

I just got through being close to the center of a hurricane. I had thought of posting on Friday (before Dennis came our way) that should I be killed in the hurricane, when Fidel, on his deathbed finally confessed, I would hope that someone (Shanet, Robert or Dawn) would have the graciousness to post:

MY GOSH, HE WAS RIGHT! (Well, MY GOSH HE WAS CORRECT! would be better. You all know I am right. How many people remember the Goldwater campaign slogan: "In your heart you know he's right!")

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Shanet wrote:

In Fact, isn't it more likely that TRAFFICANTE was in bed with BEBE REBOZO and RICHARD NIXON, because of his Florida organized crime connections with MEYER LANSKY ???

Shanet, I am unaware of any information indicating that either Trafficante or Nixon had sexual appetites for anyone other than women.

According to weberman's web-site, however, there were reports that Rolando Cubela and Raul Castro were lovers.

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Pat wrote:

I can't believe Shanet brought this up again. I thought he would be happy that Tim had finally quieted down.

Pat, I thought it rather curious myself.

I had "quieted down" only to ride out Dennis! Since God spared me, I think John might be rethinking his asssessment of my scenario. I mean, if I was bearing false witness against my neighbor to the south, He could have easily wiped me out Friday and all would know it was an act of God!

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