Oswald plus Beard equals Seymour?

[Pat Speer]

While looking through an old book on the Garrison investigation, Plot or Politics?, I learned something new. Since most of what I've learned of the Garrison investigation came from On The Trail... or JFK, I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised, but it turns out the Oswald Perry Russo recalled seeing with David Ferry was wearing a scraggly beard. While I have seen no picture of Oswald with a beard, nor have read of him ever having one, I do remember seeing pictures of William Seymour with such a beard.

It then really hit home that Russo also said he remembered that Oswald was introduced as "Leon Oswald." Leon Oswald...William Seymour...four syllables in each with a similar rhythm. It then occurred that the last name "Oswald" is quite reminscent of the last name "Seymour," in that both are first names of the kid who gets beat up in school.

Perhaps I'm barking up a wrong tree. But does it make more sense that Seymour would be with Ferry at a party than Oswald? Does anyone know if Seymour was in New Orleans at the time of this supposed party? While it could be that Russo was just making stuff up to please Garrison, the man did stick to his story till the day he died.

If anyone can post a Seymour photo by the Oswald with a beard drawing shown in Plot or Politics? it might prove interesting to those who don't know what I'm talking about.

[Pat Speer]

Just took a quick look through books by Garrison, Lane, and Groden. On The Trail says Russo met the bearded Oswald in September '63. Rush to Judgment quotes the FBI as having looked into Seymour's payroll records and finding that he worked from Sep. 5 to October 10 in Miami Beach, Florida (maybe someone can shed light on whether or not this covered weekends). The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald, on the other hand, says that Seymour is believed to have "impersonated" Oswald in New Orleans. His source???? Our own Harry Dean.

Harry, how did this come to your attention? Perhaps my assumption of the confusion between Oswald and Seymour was incorrect and you were right. Perhaps it was Seymour at the meeting but that he was "pretending" to be Oswald.

I know others have thoroughly researched this. Curious as to what they think.

Is there any known connection between Seymour and Ferrie?

[Lee Forman]

Pat,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/2oswalds.htm

All of these accounts report that "Oswald" was dirty and slovenly. Yet the real Lee Oswald was neat, clean, and well-groomed. It seems the "Oswald" in Alice, Texas fit the popular stereotype of the left-winger as unkempt Beatnik, but not the real Lee Oswald.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/willing.htm

Russo described a roommate of Ferrie's, whose name he didn't know, as having "sort of dirty blond hair and a husky beard which appeared to be a little darker than his hair. . . . a typical beatnik, extremely dirty, with his hair all messed up, his beard unkept [sic], a dirty T-shirt on, and either blue jeans or khaki pants on. He . . . wore white tennis shoes which were cruddy and had on no socks."

Sciambra showed Russo a photo of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Russo "began shaking his head and said that he doesn't know if he should say what he's thinking. . . . He then said that the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald was the person that Ferrie had introduced to him as his roommate. He said the only thing that doesn't make him stand up and say that he is sure beyond the shadow of any doubt is the fact that the roommate was always so cruddy and had a bushy beard. He then drew a beard on the picture of Oswald and said this was Ferrie's roommate."

http://www.jfk-online.com/marinashaw.html

Marina Oswald Porter - Clay Shaw Trial

Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, do you know what a beatnik or a hippie looks like?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald in such a condition as to resemble a beatnik or a hippie?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did he ever wear long hair?

A: No.

Q: What was ordinarily the condition of his hair? How was it kept?

A: It was quite short.

Q: Quite short?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Uncombed or combed?

A: There wasn't very much to comb. When he went out he combed his hair, yes, sir.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...sue/lho.mc.html

Although most of the Cuban embassy personnel claim that they did not meet Oswald, two other witnesses did. One such person is Elena Garro de Paz. She claimed to have seen Oswald at a party with "two-other beatnik-looking boys."[26] The HSCA was unable to prove or disprove her story.

Maybe one of these was Kerry Thornley.

Billings in his notes has a few references - one as the 'bearded wonder.'

http://www.jfk-online.com/billings1.html

Giant now knows his no. one priority is establishing the link to Oswald . . . Russo his star witness, but also has friends -- Kenny Carter, Niles Peterson, Ted & Jerry Kirchenstein -- who corroborate identification of Oswald as the bearded roommate . . . doctors who witnessed sodium Pentothal: James Wall, Richard Zepernick . . . He went under at 3:28 on Feb. 27 . . . Came out at 4:10 . . . Have certificate . . . Plan to have subpoenas issued for Lewallen and Shaw by Matt Braniff, a cooperative judge . . . Subpoenas will be on record and will indicate matter of interest . .

Russo says he saw Bertrand three times: at Nashville Wharf, at Ferrie's apartment and at gas station . . . The latter interesting because Russo first said it occurred before apartment, while we know from Ferrie's records he owned station in 1964 . . . (It was called Al [for Beauboeuf] and Dave's) . . . Franchise reportedly awarded to Ferrie by Marcello . . . Why (?) . . . This all cleared up under hypnosis later, for then Russo recalls it was in 1964 that he saw Bertrand and Ferrie at "Al and Dave's" . . . Russo says at dinner he now recalls Oswald was wearing a gold or brass wedding ring . . . But he's leery of name, Bertrand . . . "I don't remember name Bertrand now, so I'm very skeptical of what I'm saying . . ." . . . He well remembers muscled face and kinky hair . . . "When Kennedy was speaking at the Nashville Wharf, everyone but the Secret Service men were watching him . . . I thought Shaw was an SS man because he was watching the crowd . . ." He remembers Sandra Moffett at Ferrie's apartment . . . She had posed for sex movies . . . "Ferrie would pace back and forth -- he was very nervous -- while he was making a point." . . . Bertrand argued with him over plan . . . Oswald was quiet. So were others . . . "It seemed to me so remote and so far fetched . . . I said, 'You'll never get away with it.'" . . . Russo says he saw Ferrie 50 times over two years . . . saw "bearded wonder" four or five times at Ferrie's place . . .

There is also the confusing Raymond Broshears reference to a Leon Oswald - a separate and distinct individual, and homosexual. If memory serves, Nagell implied? Or Russell theorized that this individual may have been mistaken as Oswald by Soviet intelligence, who had learned of the plan for Oswald, and by seeking to avoid a potentially embarrassing situation, eliminated him.

Man on the Grassy Knoll - page 135.

Once, when Tuffy Oliphant [you think Seymour was picked on for his name?  ] happened to be walking to the Coliseum from Shell, he recognized him from the other side of Capitol Street.  Charles was wearing a long, bushy beard (was it real of fake Tuffy wondered) with his fedora pulled down, heading west, probably home from the Federal building.....

Paraphrased - he called out to him, Charles sees him, and takes off at a faster pace. Tuffy follows, and Charles runs. Tuffy can't for the life of him figure out when his childhood friend became a master of disguise.

That incident took place in Houston - but Charles frequently flew to New Orleans, so the authors state. Also, they take him for the impersonator.

FWIW - I think Oswald may have been impersonated, or perhaps lent out his identity, to/by more than simply one individual. He may have also be a victim of mistaken identity afterwards in many cases. Additionally, as per Mae Brussell, some details concerning Oswald may have been 'manufactured.'

As for the Ferrie individual, I like this guy. I added the beard.

- lee

Edited September 15, 2005 by Lee Forman

[Ryan Crowe]

We discussed this awhile back, and I thought the same thing Pat, I also think if you look at the C.A.P photo with Oswald and Ferrie, there is a young man who looks very much like Seymour...

[Lee Forman]

We discussed this awhile back, and I thought the same thing Pat, I also think if you look at the C.A.P photo with Oswald and Ferrie, there is a young man who looks very much like Seymour...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then of course....there's the Torbitt document...

  In the meantime, Guy Bannister, FBI Division Five's Southern

Director,  employed  a long term employee of Double-Chek  by  the

name  of  William Seymour from Phoenix, Arizona. Seymour was  the

same size and weight as Lee Harvey Oswald and, more important, by

his  resemblance  to  Oswald was as that of  an  identical  twin.

Seymour  was  given the name Leon Oswald and false identification

papers  in such a name as well as the name Lee Harvey Oswald  and

others.139

      David  L.  Lewis,  a New Orleans private investigator,  was

employed by Guy Bannister in 1962 and 1963. In late 1962 or early

1963,  Lewis  first  met  Leon Oswald. Lewis  was  in  Manchuso's

Restaurant drinking coffee with Bannister's secretary when Carlos

Quiroga,  an  anti-Castro  Cuban, came into  the  restaurant  and

introduced  a person resembling Lee Harvey Oswald as Leon  Oswald

to  Lewis and Bannister's secretary. The secretary confirms  this

meeting and says that Leon, Carlos, Lewis and she all had  coffee

together.140

    About a week later when Lewis was leaving Bannister's office

on  assignment,  he  saw Leon Oswald, alias  William  Seymour,  a

second time as he passed Quiroga, David Ferrie and Leon Oswald in

the  hall  of Bannister's building. The three men were proceeding

to Bannister's office.141

      On  a  third  occasion about ten days later, Lewis  entered

Bannister's  office and there was a meeting taking place  between

Bannister,  Quiroga,  David Ferrie, Leon Oswald  and  Robert  Ray

McKeown  of  Baycliff, Texas. Lewis was not sure who  the  fourth

person was but McKeown was identified by another source.142

      At  about  the same time as the Leon Oswald appearances  as

related by Lewis, Sergio Arcacha Smith, leader of the anti-Castro

Cuban  Democratic Revolutionary Front in New Orleans, was closely

associated with David Ferrie; and Ferrie was in Arcacha's office,

and they were seen together on numerous occasions in New Orleans.

Arcacha  admitted that David Ferrie often came to his  office  in

New  Orleans to offer his help in recruiting and training men and

to  use  Ferrie's plane in the anti-Castro work. Arcacha returned

to  Houston with McKeown after the meetings and worked there with

McKeown until the assassination date.143

      William  Seymour,  alias  Leon Oswald,  then  proceeded  to

impersonate  Lee  Oswald at a number of places  in  New  Orleans,

Florida, Austin, Alice, Fort Worth and Dallas, Texas, right  down

to  November  22,  1963. As per his assignment through  Bannister

from  the cabal, Seymour made incriminating statements on  behalf

of  Oswald which were to be used as evidence against Oswald after

the  murder.  Seymour also went to Florida posing as  Oswald  and

carried  the Fair Play for Cuba part down there in the summer  of

1963.144

    Seymour, in his masquerade, bought ammunition in Fort Worth,

made  pro-Castro remarks in an Irving barber shop and other shops

around  Dallas  and fired a rifle similar to the  Italian  one  a

large  number  of times and at a number of rifle  ranges  in  the

Dallas  area over a month's period immediately before the cabal's

murder  occurred.  Two  weeks before the assassination,  Seymour,

alias  Lee Harvey Oswald, alias Leon Oswald, told a car  salesman

he would soon come into a large sum of money.145

      As  Leon Oswald, Seymour in September, 1963, discussed  the

planned  assassination of Kennedy in New Orleans with Clay  Shaw,

David  Ferrie  and  two  Mexican appearing  men.146  Seymour  was

introduced  to Mrs. Sylvia Odie by two Mexican appearing  men  in

Dallas  on  September 25th as Leon Oswald. At this time,  he  was

said  to have made remarks which would incriminate Oswald in  the

murder two months away.147

      But  Seymour  was  not  the  only  one  impersonating  and

incriminating  Oswald  with statements  and  acts  prior  to  the

assassination. Gordon Novel's wife testified to Jim Garrison that

Novel  was  the  clean  shaved person impersonating  Oswald  and

fabricating evidence against him in advance of the murder.  Novel

was  an  absolute dead ringer for Lee Harvey Oswald  and  was  in

Dallas,  Texas, as well as in Mexico and Fort Worth, in  the  six

weeks prior to November 22nd, doing his part in the conspiracy.148

      Oswald himself, Novel and Seymour, impersonating him,  were

following  instructions  from  the cabal  of  professional  anti-

Communists  which  would blame the killing on pro-Communists  and

offset the detente Kennedy was reaching between the two political

worlds.

      On  November 22nd, William Seymour fired a rifle  from  the

sixth  floor of the School Book Depository Building at  President

Kennedy  striking  him only once in the back. Two  of  his  shots

missed  and the one that hit John Connally came from the building

across Houston Street from the Depository Building.

Seymour  left  the building and was picked up by a Nash  Rambler.

The  driver  took  Seymour to the vicinity of the  Abundant  Life

Temple and let him out to walk the balance of about two blocks to

the Temple, an affiliate of the A.C.C.C. which was provided as  a

safehouse  for Seymour. He killed Police Officer J.D. Tippet  and

then  proceeded to his safehouse, the Abundant Life Temple, about

a  block from the Tippet murder scene. There he remained until it

was safe to leave town.149

[Harry J.Dean]

Just took a quick look through books by Garrison, Lane, and Groden.  On The Trail says Russo met the bearded Oswald in September '63. Rush to Judgment  quotes the FBI as having looked into Seymour's payroll records and finding that he worked from Sep. 5 to October 10 in Miami Beach, Florida  (maybe someone can shed light on whether or not this covered weekends).  The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald, on the other hand, says that Seymour is believed to have "impersonated" Oswald in New Orleans.  His source????  Our own Harry Dean.

Harry, how did this come to your attention?  Perhaps my assumption of the confusion between Oswald and Seymour was incorrect and you were right.  Perhaps it was Seymour at the meeting but that he was "pretending" to be Oswald.

I know others have thoroughly researched this.  Curious as to what they think.

Is there any known connection between Seymour and Ferrie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Pat

On what page in the book 'The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald' by Groden

is the quote located?. Could it be a result of W.R. Morris, and attributed to me?.

Please let me know full details.

Thanks much.

Harry

[Pat Speer]

Just took a quick look through books by Garrison, Lane, and Groden.  On The Trail says Russo met the bearded Oswald in September '63. Rush to Judgment  quotes the FBI as having looked into Seymour's payroll records and finding that he worked from Sep. 5 to October 10 in Miami Beach, Florida  (maybe someone can shed light on whether or not this covered weekends).  The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald, on the other hand, says that Seymour is believed to have "impersonated" Oswald in New Orleans.  His source????  Our own Harry Dean.

Harry, how did this come to your attention?  Perhaps my assumption of the confusion between Oswald and Seymour was incorrect and you were right.  Perhaps it was Seymour at the meeting but that he was "pretending" to be Oswald.

I know others have thoroughly researched this.  Curious as to what they think.

Is there any known connection between Seymour and Ferrie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Pat

On what page in the book 'The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald' by Groden

is the quote located?. Could it be a result of W.R. Morris, and attributed to me?.

Please let me know full details.

Thanks much.

Harry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On page 248 Groden writes "The former FBI and CIA agent known as Harry Dean stated that Oswald impostors were used by the conspirators to plant evidence against Oswald in Mexico, New Orleans, and Dallas...Actually, according to Dean, the man parading around as Lee Harvey Oswald was "William Seymour."

Did Morris mis-quote you and Groden repeat it?

Edited September 15, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Harry J.Dean]

Just took a quick look through books by Garrison, Lane, and Groden.  On The Trail says Russo met the bearded Oswald in September '63. Rush to Judgment  quotes the FBI as having looked into Seymour's payroll records and finding that he worked from Sep. 5 to October 10 in Miami Beach, Florida  (maybe someone can shed light on whether or not this covered weekends).  The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald, on the other hand, says that Seymour is believed to have "impersonated" Oswald in New Orleans.  His source????  Our own Harry Dean.

Harry, how did this come to your attention?  Perhaps my assumption of the confusion between Oswald and Seymour was incorrect and you were right.  Perhaps it was Seymour at the meeting but that he was "pretending" to be Oswald.

I know others have thoroughly researched this.  Curious as to what they think.

Is there any known connection between Seymour and Ferrie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Pat

On what page in the book 'The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald' by Groden

is the quote located?. Could it be a result of W.R. Morris, and attributed to me?.

Please let me know full details.

Thanks much.

Harry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On page 248 Groden writes "The former FBI and CIA agent known as Harry Dean stated that Oswald impostors were used by the conspirators to plant evidence against Oswald in Mexico, New Orleans, and Dallas...Actually, according to Dean, the man parading around as Lee Harvey Oswald was "William Seymour."

Did Morris mis-quote you and Groden repeat it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Pat

This is more of W.R. Morris, it and several such 'exaggerations' can be tracked to his efforts to do a book. Morris and I fell-out {1975/76 soon after we met as I would not go along with his request in such an effort. By 1999 and later, I learned that he wrote articals, and book{s} that very much involved me wrongly.

In Mr. Groden's 1995 book he was simply quoting Morris incorrect statements.

It is sad that Morris misled in his efforts for fame and fortune. As he intended, his words continue to reach me from his grave.

Thanks for your inquiry Pat.

Harry

[James Richards]

If anyone can post a Seymour photo by the Oswald with a beard drawing shown in Plot or Politics? it might prove interesting to those who don't know what I'm talking about. (Pat Speer)

I don't have the Oswald with a beard drawing but here is Seymour.

James

[Tim Gratz]

I sympathize with Harry because I too have been victimized. In my case by the inaccuracies in Richard E. Sprague's book ("The Taking of America 1-2-3") which have been perpetrated many places on the Internet.

Fortunately, encouraged by several members of this Forum I was able to reach Mr. Turner who advised that he never wrote anything like what Sprague attributed to him in the book. The problem is how many people have seen Sprague's book on other places on the Internet but have had the opportunity to read Turner's denials.

[Tim Gratz]

I am curious why Seymour's HSCA testimony remains classified.

[Lawrence Riley]

Link to Another pic with Seymour. Bears a very strong resemblence to LHO in this photo. I'm curious as to when this photo was taken.

Seymour

[Jack White]

Link to Another pic with Seymour.  Bears a very strong resemblence to LHO in this photo.  I'm curious as to when this photo was taken.

Seymour

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oswald was male. Seymour was male. Their profiles are similar...but not

a strong resemblance.

Jack

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jack White

[James Richards]

Link to Another pic with Seymour.  Bears a very strong resemblence to LHO in this photo.  I'm curious as to when this photo was taken.

Seymour

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lawrence,

The image was snapped by Tom Dunkin at Nellie Hamilton's boarding house. Dunkin mixed with these guys in October of 1962, was with some of them again mid 1963 and photographed Hall and supposed Castro agent Manuel Aguilar around the October/early November 1963 period.

The image you asked about I assume was from that period.

FWIW.

James

[Gerry Hemming]

Link to Another pic with Seymour.  Bears a very strong resemblence to LHO in this photo.  I'm curious as to when this photo was taken.

Seymour

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lawrence,

The image was snapped by Tom Dunkin at Nellie Hamilton's boarding house. Dunkin mixed with these guys in October of 1962, was with some of them again mid 1963 and photographed Hall and supposed Castro agent Manuel Aguilar around the October/early November 1963 period.

The image you asked about I assume was from that period.

FWIW.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

----------------------

This Tom Dunkin photo was taken during August 1963 at the "safe-house" rented by Castro agent Manuel "Manolo" Aguilar [sW 23rd Avenue & 9th Street]. Neither Howard nor Hall were EVER at Nellie Hamilton's, even for a visit. Nor were any Cubans ever permitted to stay or even visit at Nellie's.

As for Bill Seymour's HSCA testimony remaining classified, it is due to his testimony regarding his conversations with the Cubans picked up by the NSA intelligence ship [uSS Oxford-AGTR-1] off of Havana, and amidst the "Missile Crisis". One of the Cubans in the group [delivered to No Name Key by Diosdado] was a known DIFAR [Castro Counter/Intell] agent. This "Rafael Santana" was allowed to join those extracted because of DIFAR insistence, coupled with their "desire to penetrate" U.S. Maritime Intel Ops. We had suggested that the extraction of the group would be impossible without this known DIFAR agent onboard, so they accepted that conclusion, and some of the initial missile data came out with this group.

Seymour's testimony would even today reveal the identities of person's involved in supplying said intelligence, as they [or their immediate families] continue to reside in an hostile environment, and have refused repeated offers of relocation to either the U.S. or some other Central/South American/Mexico locale.

Cheers,

Gerry Hemming

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