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Scenario?


Tim Gratz
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I was reading about David Atlee Phillips's supposed admission to his brother that he had indeed been in Dallas on November 22, 1963. After he said "Yes", it is reported that he broke down and cried.

Others have written about the possibility that there had been a plan to stage a fake attempt on Kennedy's life, presumably to blame it on Castro and prompt a US invasion of Cuba. In the fictional Libra I think the plot involves a fake assassination attempt to convince JFK he needed better security. I prefer the former alternative as more logical.

The scenario I suggest, for purposes of discussion, is that someone who was aware of, or became aware of, the fake asssassination attempt, hijacked it and effected an actual asssassination.

What if Phillips had been involved in a CIA-sponsored fake assassination that had backfired? This could explain his alleged meeting in Dallas with LHO; his presence in Dallas; and even his statement to the effect (if I remember it right) that he thought there were intelligence agents involved.

If E. Howard Hunt was, as many suspect, also in Dallas, he could have been there either as another planner/participant in the fake assassination, or as a participant in its conversion into the real thing.

This could also explain the CIA's urgent need to cover up. What would happen to the CIA if it had been disclosed that it had planned a fake assassination that had backfired?

I do not want to propose who commandeered the fake assassination attempt. Obviously it would have been someone who either knew from the start or became aware of the staged attempt and was able to insert the actul assassins. Could have been "renegade" CIA agents (regardless of their hierarchy within the CIA) or other elements e.g. organized crime. Or even LBJ.

Under this scenario, the assassins did not need to set up Oswald as a patsy, or even do things to link him to Castro. That had already been done by the organizers of the staged attempt. All they needed to do was to "take it over".

In any event, I'd like your comments on whether such a scenario makes any sense. Again it was prompted by Phillips' conversation with his brother. To me, it makes no sense that he would have admitted he had been in Dallas if he was involved in the actual assassination, nor that he would cry. A theory that he was involved in something that went terribly awry does seem consistent with his actions.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Interesting scenario Tim, I know that a lot of people would subscribe to a theory such as this. Ed O Hagan, who is a member here has a reasonably similar take on the assassination, perhaps he would be willing to share his views on the forum.

I will email him to ask him to join in.

This is a reasonably plausible scenario as it would tie in why it was so rigidly covered up, the assassins knowing that nothing would be allowed to be traced back to them. It may also explain the supposed 'limited hangout' of Howard Hunt discussed in the Helms memo.

John

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John, that was my thought as well. It does explain the issue of the "limited hang-out" re the possible presence of Hunt in Dallas.

A previous scenario I had considered was that Oswald was told by someone who was claiming to be CIA that there was to be a fake assassination attempt to force an invasion of Cuba (because there were still Russian missiles in Cuba) but the person approaching Oswald was not in fact CIA but was part of the conspiracy. And these statements were made to induce Oswald to make himself the patsy by, for instance, bringing his rifle to the TSBD.

But I think the scenario above does make more sense. Again, one can posit that the planned fake attempt was taken over by: (a) an element in the CIA; (B) LBJ; © the Mafia (which could have discovered the planned fake attempt through for instance Rosselli's dealings with certain CIA operatives). Any of these sponsors could make sense. Any could have discovered the plan for a fake assassination.

This scenario is also certainly consistent with some of the more bizarre plots contained in "Operation Northwoods" to propmt an invasion of Cuba.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Tim, I created a thread espousing this very same scenario six months ago or so. It provoked a lot of response. I'm going to re-activate it so those reading this thread can see if there's any diamonds in the coal mine. It's called Thinking Black Thoughts.

Edited by Pat Speer
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Indeed, Pat did propose the exact scenario and mentioned Phillips as a possible participant in the fake assassination scheme.

Earlier last night, I had read about what Phillips said to his brother and that must have triggered by memory of Pat's thread but what really made me think was Phillips' crying when he made the remark. I'm sure many grown men cried in the immediate aftermath of the assassination but would not years after. Phillips' tears suggested to me guilty knowledge that he had been involved in a scheme that led to Kennedy's death. I don't think they were tears of guilt because he was a conspirator. In fact, I suspect the actual conspirators were beyond remorse.

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John, that was my thought as well.  It does explain the issue of the "limited hang-out" re the possible presence of Hunt in Dallas.

A previous scenario I had considered was that Oswald was told by someone who was claiming to be CIA that there was to be a fake assassination attempt to force an invasion of Cuba (because there were still Russian missiles in Cuba) but the person approaching Oswald was not in fact CIA but was part of the conspiracy.  And these statements were made to induce Oswald to make himself the patsy by, for instance, bringing his rifle to the TSBD.

But I think the scenario above does make more sense.  Again, one can posit that the planned fake attempt was taken over by: (a) an element in the CIA; (B) LBJ; © the Mafia (which could have discovered the planned fake attempt through for instance Rosselli's dealings with certain CIA operatives).  Any of these sponsors could make sense.  Any could have discovered the plan for a fake assassination.

This scenario is also certainly consistent with some of the more bizarre plots contained in "Operation Northwoods" to propmt an invasion of Cuba.

_______________________________________

I was in two minds whether to post this or not..but I read these topics through and could find no real evidence referred to, only one assumption on top of another. This is not to discount though, that it does have a certain simplicity to it that makes sense. In a rather jocular manner here are some questions...

Let me see if I got this right...and as far as I understand it this is merely a hypothesis constructed to explain some things?

The CIA plans a fake assassination of JFK. Was this 'rogue elements' within the CIA that planned this fake assassination or was it the whole of the CIA?

'Rogue elements' hijack this game plan and uses it as the base for a real attempt.

This attempt is successful. (does this mean the CIA attempt was not carried out or was carried out? if carried out, was this fake assassination carried out from the 'snipers nest'? ok...my turn, outta the way quick..he's getting away......? if it wasn't carried out..why not?)

The CIA now becomes concerned with hiding their game plan and therefore aids the coverup? Is this all of the CIA or 'rogue elements' again? is it suggested perhaps that these 'rogue elements' who planned the fake assassination cover up the 'rogue elements' real assassination and were in turn aided in this coverup by the 'real' CIA or just 'rogues'??

If nothing else, certainly creative.

Obviously I'm skeptical...but then one often hears complaints of law enforcement bodies : "surely they have more important things to do?".

I may have missed something, but is there any proof?

this might jog some memories...(or at least tickle the odd funny bone)

__________________________________________

anyway.. Joking aside. IS there any evidence for this interesting scenario, which really isn't as far fetched as some.

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hmmm this problem re double posts seems to have surfaced agian lately...so I'll take advantage of it and post the image meant to go with the above post.

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Had LHO "pointed" the finger at only Castro, this would have considerably more merit.

However, there was:

1. Russia

2. Anti-Castro Cuban association (Bringuier)

3. ACLU association

4. John Birch association (Walker)

5. Pro-Castro gun-runners (McKeown)

6. Anti-Castro operations (Gary Hemming)

7. Pro-Castro FPCC

8. American Communist Party

??-Miss any?

Which should certainly serve to indicate that LHO was leaving trails all over the forest.

His last attempt to make a trip to Cuba (via Mexico), assuming that he actually planned the trip and it was not just another false trail, would make it difficult for anyone to rationalize the actions of LHO as anything other than leaving many trails in the forest.

His "blatant" activities such as the FPCC episodes in New Orleans, were for some given specific purpose.

And, unlike John Wilkes Booth, LHO was not an experienced actor and frequently "overplayed" his role.

Tom

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Had LHO "pointed" the finger at only Castro, this would have considerably more merit.

However, there was:

1.  Russia

2.  Anti-Castro Cuban association (Bringuier)

3.  ACLU association

4.  John Birch association (Walker)

5.  Pro-Castro gun-runners (McKeown)

6.  Anti-Castro operations (Gary Hemming)

7.  Pro-Castro FPCC

8.  American Communist Party

??-Miss any?

Hoover reported to LBJ that Oswald was associated with CORE. I believe there were also links with the Trotskyite Socialist Worker Party.

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Kerry Thornley called it a Maximum Complicity Crime - not the way he would have run it, apparently.

KT: The guy I called "Brother-In-Law" (aka Gary Kirsten)--who I thought was Howard Hunt, that I talked to about assassinating J.F.K.--told me that he was going to talk to everybody in the country who wanted Kennedy dead. He also said to me, he thought it would be a good idea to involve a whole lot of people, who all thought they were working on other projects.

WCH: The Triangulation of Fire Theory?

KT: A maximum complicity crime. In other words, if everyone--the CIA, FBI, French or Corsican Mafia, the KGB, the Cubans--thought they were the only ones sitting around with Howard Hunt talking about killing Kennedy, then they'd all think they did it. This was the opposite approach I wanted to use, which was to use as few people as possible and to tell as few people as possible. It seemed very impractical the way he (Hunt) wanted to do it, to me at the time. I didn't understand that he was a goddamm CIA trained assassin who knew exactly how to pull these things off and how to pull off a political coup.

So the document allegedly delivered to Audie Murphy [in the presence of Bill Decker and Gary Wean] by John Tower would only be one facet. Several individuals/groups would be informed that a false assassination was to take place in Dealey Plaza - but many others would be working in compartmentalized fashion - coming from a variety of sources. Wade Frazier's summary:

Oswald was inducted into CIA covert activities and came under Hunt’s direction.  Hunt was a major player in mounting the failed Bay of Pigs invasion, and he, as with many others in the military and CIA, blamed Kennedy for the failure (Kennedy refused to call in openly American air support).  Hunt dreamed up the crazy assassination attempts on Castro that the United States tried.  His mission in life was eliminating Castro.  Oswald came into his control, and was thrown into the cauldron of the Cuban exile communities in Miami and New Orleans.  Oswald did not initially know what his mission would be. 

Hunt was paranoid about Oswald's Russian wife, thinking that she might be a Russian spy, so Oswald could tell her nothing about his activities.  Oswald’s joining Fair Play for Cuba and his staged “murder attempt” on General Walker were all part of giving Oswald “credentials” that would make his upcoming performance more believable.  Hunt had concocted the most bizarre assassination intrigue of all time.  Oswald was going to participate in a fake assassination attempt on John Kennedy, and frame Castro for it.  Oswald’s apparent visit to the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City was part of laying an elaborate trail to Cuba.  Hunt believed that if Castro could be implicated in an assassination attempt on JFK, the American people could be riled up into supporting an outright invasion of Cuba. 

JFK was not aware of the fake assassination plan, but high-ranking officials in the government and his administration were.  Military intelligence, the FBI and the CIA were all involved.  Oswald was initially leery of Hunt’s plan, but with assurances and after seeing the high-level people involved, he went along with it.  Oswald was to fire his rifle into the air, then go into hiding, and the false trail to Cuba was laid.  He could come home to a hero’s welcome and live a normal life after America had finished mopping up Cuba. 

But something went horribly wrong.  The fake assassination turned into a real one.  Somebody had infiltrated the operation, interposed the mission and killed JFK.  The real assassins tried killing Oswald after JFK was killed, but policeman Tippit was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was killed.  Oswald escaped, to be captured alive.  John said that he knew that Oswald would not have shot a policeman under any circumstances. 

Now let's hypothesize that nothing went wrong. Certain individuals and organizations may have deliberately been misinformed, in order to make them complicit, and aid in the cover-up, plausible denial, as well as to add to the confusion and false trails. That would include a Patsy, or more than one Patsy - all with the aim of an invasion of Cuba, and a stronger stance on opposing communism. Perhaps a plan was created for distribution - especially among those

high-ranking officials in the government and his administration
that wouldn't have gone along with a plan for an actual assassination. Thereby adding to the confusion later - since they would have had foreknowledge of a plan that really crossed the line to begin with - and complicity [and guilt] associated with the murder that followed.

A lot of what I have read relating to the assassination says that it was a compartmentalized operation. In other words, certain teams and individuals were brought in for specific assignments. See Larry Hancock's 'Someone would have talked' and the interview of Roy Hargraves by Noel Twymann. A 'need to know' basis, plausible denial, etc. And IMO, everyone at the dance is recorded or somehow blackmailed - and these records are not made public [at least not all, and you could assume that some were merely oversights or leaks].

Gerry Patrick Hemming has said that there was false flag recruiting going on [which is also what Richard Case Nagell said], and that certain individuals may have thought that they were in Dallas to provide security. Mr. Hemming has said that his group was approached for the Miami airport job, which he believed was a set-up.

Harry Dean has brought some very interesting items to light, which, IMO, bear closer examination. One aspect which I found interesting was his identification of a 'fake CIA' agent.

Tosh Plumlee says he was brought in on a CIA engineered 'abort mission.'

Bud Culligan - see Craig Hume's 'Paper on JFK & CIA & Executive Action' - says that there were groups responsible for the shooting - of the 6 shooters he says were present [Penn Jones had 9], Bud doesn't even know all of the groups contracted - this coming from an individual that appears for all intents and purposes to have been associated with the AMLASH or EA program. Interesting to note that Craig Hume has Culligan's cover being 'primarily supplied under the cover of legitimate airlines; he worked under many: Eastern Airlines, Butler Aviation...' Saaaaaay........

An unidentified source, per Hume, said that Culligan indeed was part of the assassination effort 11/22. He certainly seems to have had a lot of detail concerning the events that transpired that day - including the item that the operation had use of 2 Dallas Police squad cars [Earline Roberts?]. Anyone have a photo of Bud circa 1963?

An aside - he details three Cuban shooters that became risks - they had to be eliminated. He did this in Guatemala, so he says, in Feb 1965. Does he deliberately list 3 Cuban men that were still alive at that time, because they were the leaders of the associated organizations from which three of the Cuban shooters were selected?

Manuel Artime Buesa - died in 1977. Movement for the Recovery of the Revolution [MRR]

Jose Miro Cardone - died? President of the Cuban Revolutionary Council [CRC]

Manuel A DeVarona - died in 1992. Head of the Rescate Revolucionario Democratico movement and Junta Patriotica Cubana.

If one shooter was Herminio Diaz Garcia, he appears to have been deliberately sent on a rigged mission, along with the Cuesta and others - but not until 1966.

Tony Cuesta, 39 - year - old group leader, and Eugenio Zaldivar Xiques were captured after being seriously wounded in a gunfight 10 miles off the coast. Two other crewmen, listed only as "Guillermo" and "Roberto" (alias Cara Vieja), were missing - and presumed drowned.

Escalante on Diaz:

It is amazing to think that Herminio Diaz, a veteran counter-revolutionary like him, comes to infiltrate Cuba through its capital, almost in the presence of a platoon of Cuban troops, in the midst of a serious crisis between the U.S. and Cuba. It's quite strange. All the more so if we consider the dozens of people who have been linked to Kennedy's assassination and who later have died under mysterious circumstances.

PW: Do you mean to say he was sent to his death?

FE: Everything seems to indicate that. I can only judge from the analysis, because it doesn't make sense – according to history and the record of CIA infiltrations into Cuba – to land two blocks away from Fifth Avenue when the Cuban forces were in combat preparedness. It's a scheme made up either by mad men or with a secret intention. You decide which of the two. 

MacDonald's interview with 'Saul' has him on the top floor of the DalTex. He is supposed to fire a shot at 'Harvey' after he takes his shot at Kennedy. 'Harvey' is supposed to be leaning out the 6th floor window with a rifle, faking shots.

Interestingly - we have the man seen in the 2nd floor window of the DalTex. We also have the interesting stories told by Florer and Braden as to why they were in the building. Has anyone ever taken a close look at the top floors of the DalTex?

We see some 'familiar faces' in some of the photos and films. Did they have the security of a plan to use in the event of any serious accusations as to the reason for their presence?

At a minimum, IMO, no Cuban was present in Dealey Plaza for any fake anything. Were some agents present in DP blameless - there was a simulated assassination plan that went awry, or was that engineered as an escape route for plausible denial? Or again, was that the plan created to fool those less 'Patriotic.' The whole CIA 'Rogue' thing comes to mind.

Ralph McGehee, exCIA Agent:

The CIA is not now nor has it ever been a central intelligence agency. It is the covert action arm of the President's foreign policy advisers. In that capacity it overthrows or supports foreign governments while reporting "intelligence" justifying those activities. It shapes its intelligence, even in such critical areas as Soviet nuclear weapons capability, to support presidential policy. Disinformation is a large part of its covert action responsibility, and the American people are the primary target of its lies.

Maximum Complicity Crime - I like it.

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Tim,

My post to you disappeared.

This week Hemming revealed who he believed were two of the “sponsors” of the assassination. Two men met in Haiti in February of 1963 and contributed funds for the Kennedy assassination. Both were from the Dominican Republic. One, Ramfis Trujillo, and international playboy who dated Hollywood starlets, was the son of long-term Dominican Republican dictator Rafael Trujillo, who was assassinated in May of 1961. The second man was Johnny Abbes Garcia, former intelligence director for General Rafael Trujillo. It was not the first time Garcia had financed an assassination. In 1959, Garcia hired American adventurer Alexander Rorke to smuggle eight men into Cuba on one of the first missions to kill Castro. (See Rorke story.) The motives of Trujillo and Garcia were apparent: To revenge the assassination of Rafael Trujillo, widely believed to have been organized by the CIA.

It's interesting to note that Bud Culligan detailed Rafael Trujillo as one of his assignments. As per Hume, he often would employ the use of two or more helpers - depending upon the assignment.

Church Committee:

By the time four M-3 machine guns were shipped to the CIA Station in the Dominican capital in April, it was well known that the dissidents wanted them for use in con- nection with the assassination. Thereafter, however, permission to deliver the machine guns to the dissidents was denied, and the guns were never passed. The day before the assassination a cable, person- ally authorized by President Kennedy, was sent to the United States’ Consul General in the Dominican Republic stating that the United States Government, as a matter of general policy, could not condone political assassination, but zt the same time indicating the United States continued to support the dissidents and stood ready to recognize them in the event they were successful in their endeavor to overthrow Trujillo.

Spartacus:

Rafael Trujillo was assassinated on 30th May 1961 when his car was machine-gunned by a group of men on a quiet road outside the capital. Before the CIA could get their people in power, Rafael Trujillo Jr. rushed home from France and installed himself as the country's new ruler. Over the next six months he executed all his known opponents.

Too bad Culligan never made good on his threats to publish his journal and associated documentation, photos, passports, plane tickets, etc.

Interesting that Kennedy authorized that cable - stating that the US could not condone political assassination. Culligan said that his SPOC was General Odom - however, he never met him alone to discuss a job. As per Hume, along with Senators and Congressmen - but always with a representative of the White House present.

- lee

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Lee, I think the Gary Wean story seems essentially very similar to the scenario Pat Speer proposed. You can make two different arguments: a) there never was to be a "fake" assassination attempt but that story was promulgated to bring the "patsy" into play (perhaps even more than one patsy); or :) there was indeed a fake assassination plot that was hijacked. The fake plot was presumably designed to prompt an invasion of Cuba (the idea of a fake plot to convince JFK he needed better security makes no sense to me). The motivation of those who hijacked the plot could very well have been different. They could have wanted JFK dead for their own reasons, and if they knew of the motivation behind the fake plot they could have used that to prompt the cover-up. In other words, they almost turned the whole thing around.

The problem with the scenario is, of course, that unless there are some documents that will be later disclosed to demonstrate its existence, it must remain "pure speculation". I thought, however, that Phillips' tears were consistent with the behavior of someone in a fake plot that had gone terribly astray.

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I was reading about David Atlee Phillips's supposed admission to his brother that he had indeed been in Dallas on November 22, 1963.  After he said "Yes", it is reported that he broke down and cried.  Others have written about the possibility that there had been a plan to stage a fake attempt on Kennedy's life, presumably to blame it on Castro and prompt a US invasion of Cuba....  The scenario I suggest, for purposes of discussion, is that someone who was aware of, or became aware of, the fake asssassination attempt, hijacked it and effected an actual asssassination....  This could also explain the CIA's urgent need to cover up.  What would happen to the CIA if it had been disclosed that it had planned a fake assassination that had backfired?...  Under this scenario, the assassins did not need to set up Oswald as a patsy, or even do things to link him to Castro.  That had already been done by the organizers of the staged attempt.  All they needed to do was to "take it over".

There is an obcure bit of evidence that the wrong people had indeed learned of some kind of fake demonstration planned for the President's visit to Dallas. On November 4, 1963, H. L. Hunt's security chief, Paul Rothermel, wrote his boss an interoffice memo entitled "POLITICS." After discussing various right-wing planning by groups affiliated with General Walker, Rothermel continued:

"There is another report from a left-wing group that an incident will occur with the knowledge of the President whereby the left-wingers will start the incident in hopes of dragging in any of the right side groups or individuals nearby and then withdrawing. The talk is that the incident involving Adlai Stevenson made the present administration hopeful in that if they could get the same thing to happen to Kennedy it could reassure his election." - Texas Rich by Harry Hurt III, p. 223.

Of course, it's possible that the interpretation that the right-wingers were to be the target of the fake incident may have been a defensive interpretation. The administration planning may well have been taken from the Operation Northwoods playbook and aimed at creating a fake assassination attempt to be attributed to Castro. This scenario provides an explanation for how such a hijacked operation could have been subverted with the real thing, necessitating the cover-up that would include RFK's acquiescence.

Tim

Edited by Tim Carroll
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