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Sid,

You have just jumprd, two footed, into the account of T Carter and dismissed her without any deliberation. Dismissing witnesses because they do not fit into the scenario that you believe in is not critical thinking, it is selectivee evidence.

You accuse her of disinformation, a groundless statement. The fact that she was a JFK and MLK researcher previous to 9/11, the fact that she knew the flight crew on board that day, the fact that she was at the Pentagon crash site shortly after it happened, and the fact that she saw one of the hijacker on a practise run would immediately tweak my ears as an item of interest for any 9/11 researcher. I would give her analysis of events considerably more credibility than I would yours Sid, condiering that she has first hand experience of the evidence and did not come to her conclusions based on the information circulating the internet.

Jack White, too dismissed T Carter as having been duped in an elaborate hoax propogated by the govt. My word they do cover all the angles don't they! As well as being a researcher, T is also a very good friend of John Judge, life long researcher and general Government watchdog.

People seem to have preconceived notions about 9/11 and the only new evidence that is deemed credible is that which fits with their existing paradigm.

Sid, just what exacty do you mean by your insinuations, are you branding her a disinformationalist based solely on the fact that her account does not fit with your explanation of the Pentagon crash. Will you not even consider her account before summarily dismissing it?

Selective research is just as bad as no research.

John

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In any case, because Lance's scenario didn't include a missile shooting down the plane, or a missile hiting the Pentagon, this other host, when asked his opinion, merely branded me a disinformation agent of the government.

Where these missiles come from doesn't seem to concern some people.

As for T. Carter, she doesn't need anyone to stick up for her.

BK

It's an accusation I don't usually make lightly, Bill.

In this case, it was a quip - and in no way directed at you.

I'm well aware of the destructive, unproductive directions that discussions on these important topics take once folk start accusing each of being spooks.

I have no idea whether T Carter is for real or not. Perhaps she is?

But if she is, I would suggest she's ham-fisted in the extreme.

The following citation almost cries out for disbelief:

T Carter was a regular stewardess on that flight and had witnessed one of the alleged hijackers doing a pre-911 test flight. She also has inside information on disinformation related to telephone calls associated with this flight.

What's she up to now, I wonder. Does she have a full name - or does everyone call her 'T'?

Does anyone have more recent references about 'T Carter', her theories and remarkable first hand experiences?

Edited by Sid Walker
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Sid,

You have just jumprd, two footed, into the account of T Carter and dismissed her without any deliberation. Dismissing witnesses because they do not fit into the scenario that you believe in is not critical thinking, it is selectivee evidence.

You accuse her of disinformation, a groundless statement. The fact that she was a JFK and MLK researcher previous to 9/11, the fact that she knew the flight crew on board that day, the fact that she was at the Pentagon crash site shortly after it happened, and the fact that she saw one of the hijacker on a practise run would immediately tweak my ears as an item of interest for any 9/11 researcher. I would give her analysis of events considerably more credibility than I would yours Sid, condiering that she has first hand experience of the evidence and did not come to her conclusions based on the information circulating the internet.

Jack White, too dismissed T Carter as having been duped in an elaborate hoax propogated by the govt. My word they do cover all the angles don't they! As well as being a researcher, T is also a very good friend of John Judge, life long researcher and general Government watchdog.

People seem to have preconceived notions about 9/11 and the only new evidence that is deemed credible is that which fits with their existing paradigm.

Sid, just what exacty do you mean by your insinuations, are you branding her a disinformationalist based solely on the fact that her account does not fit with your explanation of the Pentagon crash. Will you not even consider her account before summarily dismissing it?

Selective research is just as bad as no research.

John

John

I've already explained - in my previous post to Bill - the extent of my comment.

It was a light hearted quip.

Had you provided references to this woman and her output, revealing her background - and not left me to google her up and take pot chance - I might have come sooner to your indubitably sound and very respectful opinion of her.

Do you have any such references, by the way?

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John,

You have me concerned that I may inadventently have cast aspersions on a decent human being.

So I googled a little more for T Carter.

Here she is! ....

T Carter holds a BS degree from Mankato State University, Mankato, Minnesota in Speech Communications, with a High School teaching degree. Currently residing in Washington D.C., Ms. Carter is a researcher of the JFK and MLK assassinations. This includes extensive research, interviewing of witnesses and recovering & researching documents at the National Archives. She also teaches special High School and College courses on conspiracy. Her work has been published in various newsletters such as Open Secrets, Deep Politics; and in John Armstrong's book, "Harvey and Lee". She worked closely with Judge Joe Brown, the FOX Television Judge, a then Criminal Court Judge in Memphis, TN, concerning the testing of the alleged James Earl Ray murder weapon, in the Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination case. She continues to work with Jerry Ray, brother of James Earl Ray, in legally getting possession of the rifle, so the testing can be completed.

Ms. Carter is a member & organizer of COPA, (Coalition of Political Assassinations) where she has spoken to large audiences at several national & regional meetings about her work/findings. COPA's members were instrumental in overseeing implementation of the JFK Assassinations Records Act, passed in 1992, which led to the release of over 6 million pages of records to date&ldots;the largest release of classified documents in US history! Along with COPA, T played a role in passage of this legislation. Most currently, T has been working on creating a similar Act for the release of records relating to the life and Assassination of The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. She lobbied Congress for over 2 years. In 2001, Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney from Georgia agreed to take on the bill&ldots;The MLK Act. T helped the Legislative Aid in the writing of the language of the bill during the summer of 2002. Congresswoman McKinney introduced the bill to the 107th Congress in November 2002. T is an activist and speaker for the abolishment of Racist Native American Mascots. Her efforts have been successful in the State of Maryland. After a long hard battle, in 2001 a law was passed to end Racist Mascots in Maryland Schools! T Carter is currently focused on the freedom of Native American political prisoner, Leonard Peltier. She is on his lobbying team, has scanned many of his newly released FOIA documents onto CD and recovered several missing files at The National Archives. In 2003 she plans to expand her work by becoming a Para Legal for Leonard Peltier.

All of which is interesting and most praiseworthy.

It does not, however, fully explain the staggering co-incidence that this same person, with so much prior interest in the topic of conspiracies, was also "was a regular stewardess on that flight (93?) and had witnessed one of the alleged hijackers doing a pre-911 test flight"

BTW, John, do you know what "inside information on disinformation related to telephone calls associated with this flight" T Carter has to share?

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John,

One other minor point about 'T Carter'.

This page on the COPA site says "Researcher T Carter explains her relation to flight 93 which slammed into the Pentagon September 11th, 2001."

Yet Flight 93 didn't fly into the Pentagon - on anyone's account of what happened! The plane that (supposedly) did that was Flight 77.

Presumably it's just a typo?

It had me confused, because this thread was initially about Flight 93...

Anyhow, the next line says "She is a flight attendant and one of her usual routes was Flight 77 - the plane that went into the Pentagon."

Tcarter2.jpg

Perhaps you can clear this up for us and for posterity?

Edited by Sid Walker
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Guest Stephen Turner

Gentlemen, thanks for the information, Bill, great research, usual.

Lets take some time to see what the few eyewitnesses to this event had to say.

Susan McElwain, local resident, "It was a small jet, it came right over my head, I reckon about no more than 40, to 50 feet above me, it was so low I ducked instinctively, it was traveling real fast, but hardly made any sound. It had two rear engines,a big fin on the back like a spoiler on a car, and two upright fins on the side."(f-16?) So, in the immeadiate area she observes a twin engine jet from a maximun of 50 feet, just prior to flight 93 crashing. Five other witnesses also reported seeing this jet, one less than half a mile from the crash site, he observed flight 93 as it crashed, he then saw a small white jet fly low to the ground over the crash site, circle, then leave the area at high speed.

ohn Fleegle, Jim Brant and Carol Delasko were about two and a half miles from the crash site, according to a Pittsburg newspaper they heard," Engines screaming close overhead, the biulding shook, we ran outside HEARD THE EXPLOSION, and saw a fireball mushroom"....Delasko.."I thought a boat had blown up on the lake,it looked like confetti raining down in the air over the lake." Within a second or two flight 93 passed over the marina where they stood, debris from the plane was falling into the lake, a lot of debris, some of it on fire. The plane was still about twenty seconds from crashing when this occured, its cargo, and passenger areas had been blown open by an explosion.

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Sid,

The flight 93 reference is indeed a typo. It is not a COPA site, it is a report of a COPA conference on the parapolitics site. T Carter does not administrate the site so take it up with whoever does.

With regards to T Carters account of inside information re: phone calls, you could have found that on the COPA page at the parapolitics site ...

She said that she believes the plane actually went into the Pentagon, contrary to a popular internet theory. Her friends bodies and aircraft wreckage were recovered from the scene of the impact which she visited. Other revelations included privy knowledge of her flight attendant friends personal cell phone call to her mother. During the call the flight attendant friend to the mother that there were SIX hijackers - contradicting the number claimed by the Government "authorities." She implored the audience to research September 11th for this and other "discrepancies."
I will email John Judge in reference to T Carters account and I will also try to obtain a copy of the COPA 2002 conference so that you can hear her testimony in full.

Here is another account of T's MLK and JFK research

T is a dedicated researcher who has worked on both JFK and MLK cases with Judge Joe Brown, among others. Her first report was on her efforts to weigh the infamous Minox camera held in the National Archives. The effort to weigh the alleged CIA spy cam "found" at Oswald's residence is to discover what if anything may have been used to seal and/or fill the interior portion of the Bic lighter sized camera. The camera has been impenatrable. As it turns out the camera does weigh more than the 200 or more weighed by T. Carter. On the second night of the conference gave an update on the Martin Luther King case related to securing of the rifle everyone believes is NOT the real assassination weapon and how Denny's (!) has taken up sponsorship of the MLK Assassination museum

The question still stands Sid, what are you basing your mistrust for T Carter on? You have made insinuations that because she has researched MLK and JFK she, therfore, must be some kind of conspiracy nut and is writing herself into history. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is the general feeling that I get.

I will post more info later today.

All the best,

John

Edited by John Geraghty
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Guest Stephen Turner

John, with all due respect, how about you start a thread on T Carter, so you and Sid can debate her bona fides there, this one is about flight 93. Regards, Steve.

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I have no interest in reviving the whole tiresome 9-11 imbroglio, but perhaps Members will indulge me in debating a couple of points that seem to diverge wildly from the official report.

Flight 93, and the "Lets roll" story.

It is no secret that US air defences had been massively reduced following the end of the cold war. During the 60s, 70s and 80s the US had literally thousands of fighters on alert, by the time of 911 this number had been gradually reduced, and now stood at between 30-40 fighters.

Even this though does not, IMO, explain the slow responce status, nor the full extent of NORADS failure's that awful day. Lets start with the times NORAD claims it heard of the hijackings. By 8-43am they had information concerning the probable hijackings of the first two planes, it was now, that any system wide crisis emergency plan should have kicked in.At 8-46 flight 11 crashes into the first WTC Tower, surely at this point all regional air traffic controls would have been recieving reports of seemingly co-ordinated hijackings taking place over American airspace, yet when flight 77 is hijacked at 8-46, Norad claims not to hear about it until 9-24, a mere 13 minutes before it crashes into the Pentagon.

The time officially taken to react to the hijack of flight 93 is, if anything, even more staggering, NORAD claims to hear of the hijacking at 9-16, the Pentagon position is that it had not yet intercepted the plane before it crashed, just minutes away from Washington at 10-06, an almost unbelievable 50 minutes after they recieved the report. But some evidence strongly suggests that flight 93 was shot down after all. Officials have never disputed that a secondary debris field existed, more than six miles from the main crash site, local pres claimed it contained one of the planes engines, if true, this points to either an onboard explosion, or an external missile strike, as there has never been the merest suggestion that the terrorists were carring explosives, and a handfull of eyewitnesses reported seeing low flying US military jets in the area at the time of the crash it raises a question, why, if 93 was shot down, the only right thing to do, given the circumstances, has it been repeatedly denied. Conversely, if no fighter jets were on the scene, given the amount of time they had to be there, why on Earth wern't they......Steve.

Steve,

Getting back to Flight 93 - The 177th pilots that I talked to, who would have intercpted the second WTC flight had they taken off as scheduled on their routine bombing practice run - although without being armed - after retrning to base and rearming with air to air missiles - a procedure that took about an hour, they took off armed.

At first, they said, they were ordered vector - west - from Atlantic City, which is heading directly for Western Pa. - Ohio - but after only a few minutes heading in this direction they were reordered to fly to NYC, where they were the first non-alert jets to arrive.

They speculated to me that they think they were headed to meet up with Flight 93 and after it crashed, were redirected to NYC, though I haven't put this on an accurate timeline to check it.

Also, one of the biggest coincidence of the day was the takeoff of a Military cargo plane from DC, who witnessed the plane hit the pentagon, and then headed west and witnessed the crash of Flight 93. What are the odds of one witness seeing both?

I would have been more curious about this flight but noone seems to bother with it.

As for checking Tamara's bonifides, anyone who questions her integrity merely looses their own.

BK

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It is indisputable that the government has lied and covered up about Flight 93. The military lied, in a detailed scenario, about being aware of and sending interceptors after 93 before it crashed. (Or else the military subsequently lied about not knowing anything about 93 until after it crashed. Which was it?) The government has suppressed all information about a NetJet, a "private" jet tracking Flight 93 at the time it crashed, as acknowledged by NetJets. And the government has suppressed the identity of the FAA highjack coordinator on 9/11, who sat in the hot seat as the link between FAA and the military. That person would have some tough questions to answer, except that the person virtually doesn't exist and is therefore unaccountable. If there was no designated highjack coordinator at FAA on that particular day of all days, the government has suppressed that information too.

The story stinks, but the general public, and the controlled media that it listens to, doesn't care.

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It is indisputable that the government has lied and covered up about Flight 93. The military lied, in a detailed scenario, about being aware of and sending interceptors after 93 before it crashed. (Or else the military subsequently lied about not knowing anything about 93 until after it crashed. Which was it?) The government has suppressed all information about a NetJet, a "private" jet tracking Flight 93 at the time it crashed, as acknowledged by NetJets. And the government has suppressed the identity of the FAA highjack coordinator on 9/11, who sat in the hot seat as the link between FAA and the military. That person would have some tough questions to answer, except that the person virtually doesn't exist and is therefore unaccountable. If there was no designated highjack coordinator at FAA on that particular day of all days, the government has suppressed that information too.

The story stinks, but the general public, and the controlled media that it listens to, doesn't care.

Ron

I'd guess that fewer than 1% of the American population could put together a paragraph about Fight 93 - as you have done - that cogently summarizes key problems with the Government's official story.

So.. again, I think you're too harsh on Joe Public. You tend to blame the victim, Ron.

Perhaps some Americans don't care. But I think most Americans would care very much if they became as well-informed about 9-11 as you are - even more so if they saw how to help bring the real perpetrators to justice.

As for the 'controlled mass media' - that's a whole different matter...

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