CIA and Emails

[John Simkin]

A group of left-wing activists, including several investigative journalists, have joined a lawsuit seeking a ban on a domestic spy program authorized by President George Bush. It is claimed that the CIA is listening to their telephone calls and reading their emails.

I think it is possible that those people who criticize the CIA on this Forum are having their emails intercepted. Over the last few weeks I have received information from hotmail that some of my emails to fellow investigators have been “delayed” and have not reached their destination. Yesterday, I received a PM on this Forum that they have been receiving the same message when they have tried to email me via their hotmail account.

Is it possible that some people’s emails are being redirected so that they can be read by the intelligence services before they are delivered to the intended person?

For some time I have been aware that my emails to Philip Agee have not been arriving. However, he lives in Cuba so I assumed that the CIA was blocking these emails. Is it now happening in America?

[Thomas Graves]

Yesterday, I received a PM on this Forum that they have been receiving the same message when they have tried to email me via their hotmail account.

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I also use hotmail and when I e-mailed a member of this forum a few days ago, it came back saying:

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed:

(XYXYXYXYX@xyx.xyx)

_____________________________________

Edited January 19, 2006 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas H. Purvis]

A group of left-wing activists, including several investigative journalists, have joined a lawsuit seeking a ban on a domestic spy program authorized by President George Bush. It is claimed that the CIA is listening to their telephone calls and reading their emails.

I think it is possible that those people who criticize the CIA on this Forum are having their emails intercepted. Over the last few weeks I have received information from hotmail that some of my emails to fellow investigators have been “delayed” and have not reached their destination. Yesterday, I received a PM on this Forum that they have been receiving the same message when they have tried to email me via their hotmail account.

Is it possible that some people’s emails are being redirected so that they can be read by the intelligence services before they are delivered to the intended person?

For some time I have been aware that my emails to Philip Agee have not been arriving. However, he lives in Cuba so I assumed that the CIA was blocking these emails. Is it now happening in America?

Certainly!

Why would anyone doubt otherwise???????

[Guest Stephen Turner]

"Somewhere in the quisling clinic, there's shorthand typist taking seconds over minutes"

"She's listining in to the venus line, and picking out names, I hope none of them are mine"

"Better send a begging letter to the big investigation, who put these fingerprints on my imagination"

ELVIS COSTELLO (for tis he) "GREEN SHIRT"

[Thomas Graves]

ELVIS COSTELLO

__________________________________

"She is watching the detectives..."

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Edited January 19, 2006 by Thomas Graves

[Stephen Roy]

A group of left-wing activists, including several investigative journalists, have joined a lawsuit seeking a ban on a domestic spy program authorized by President George Bush. It is claimed that the CIA is listening to their telephone calls and reading their emails.

I think it is possible that those people who criticize the CIA on this Forum are having their emails intercepted. Over the last few weeks I have received information from hotmail that some of my emails to fellow investigators have been “delayed” and have not reached their destination. Yesterday, I received a PM on this Forum that they have been receiving the same message when they have tried to email me via their hotmail account.

Is it possible that some people’s emails are being redirected so that they can be read by the intelligence services before they are delivered to the intended person?

For some time I have been aware that my emails to Philip Agee have not been arriving. However, he lives in Cuba so I assumed that the CIA was blocking these emails. Is it now happening in America?

I reason that, if someone was intercepting emails, they would not want it to be detected. To hijack and delay the email would invite detection. An undetectable method would be to simply fire off a copy.

[Thomas Graves]

OK

Edited January 20, 2006 by Thomas Graves

[John Simkin]

I reason that, if someone was intercepting emails, they would not want it to be detected. To hijack and delay the email would invite detection. An undetectable method would be to simply fire off a copy.

Of course. But it is important for us to know that our emails are being read. The idea is to intimidate those who seek to expose the CIA.

During the 1980s a story was leaked that MI5 had constructed a list of people who were members of dangerous political groups (CND, Anti-Apartheid Movement, Amnesty International, Greenpeace, etc.). This blacklist would then be used to stop these people from making progress in their chosen careers. I am not sure this story is true but a lot of people believed it. Especially with Margaret Thatcher as prime minister. With high unemployment in the 1980s, people began to leave these organizations. At the same time students refused to join these left-wing political groups. They did not want to ruin their careers before they started. The left was virtually destroyed during the 1980s. Although I am not sure this blacklist actually existed, a belief in it played its part in reducing the opposition to this right-wing government.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

For anyone interested in the history of blacklisting in the UK, try googling "Economic league"These bastards were part of the Securicor group, and help organise resistance during the 1926 general strike..

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I reason that, if someone was intercepting emails, they would not want it to be detected. To hijack and delay the email would invite detection. An undetectable method would be to simply fire off a copy.

Of course. But it is important for us to know that our emails are being read. The idea is to intimidate those who seek to expose the CIA.

During the 1980s a story was leaked that MI5 had constructed a list of people who were members of dangerous political groups (CND, Anti-Apartheid Movement, Amnesty International, Greenpeace, etc.). This blacklist would then be used to stop these people from making progress in their chosen careers. I am not sure this story is true but a lot of people believed it. Especially with Margaret Thatcher as prime minister. With high unemployment in the 1980s, people began to leave these organizations. At the same time students refused to join these left-wing political groups. They did not want to ruin their careers before they started. The left was virtually destroyed during the 1980s. Although I am not sure this blacklist actually existed, a belief in it played its part in reducing the opposition to this right-wing government.

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Of course. But it is important for us to know that our emails are being read. The idea is to intimidate those who seek to expose the CIA.

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Not likely!

It would appear that you really do have it in for the American Intelligence System.

Personally, the CIA can moniter whatever of my transmissions they like, so long as I, as a "free" american, can walk around in a "free" nation, and have the luxeries and "Freedoms" which we as American Citizens enjoy.

It happens to be one of those small prices one must pay for "FREEDOM" and the rights to enjoy it.

Now, in the case of the "Disneyland/Fantasyland" theater of operations in which some persons brain seems to operate, there is of course little necessity for such activities and it is in their opinions an "invasion" of their privacy.

However, since Snow White and the seven dwarfs is make believe, and I for one live in the reality of the surrounding world.

Have at it CIA!

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Oh yeah, the good ol CIA, making life safe for liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of mom's apple pie by reading thomas graves Emails..What was that about fantasy/Disneyland again, finish with three chorus's of America the beautiful, and keep taking the pill's.

[Bill Grote]

The good ol' CIA. Right!, Kind of reminds me of the Gestapo, and the Brown Shirts.

So devious that we should trust them? Listening in on private dessenting views is condoned.

Makes me almost proud to be an Amerikan!

[Robert Howard]

The good ol' CIA. Right!, Kind of reminds me of the Gestapo, and the Brown Shirts.

So devious that we should trust them? Listening in on private dessenting views is condoned.

Makes me almost proud to be an Amerikan!

"It would appear that you really do have it in for the American Intelligence System.

Personally, the CIA can moniter whatever of my transmissions they like, so long as I, as a "free" american, can walk around in a "free" nation, and have the luxeries and "Freedoms" which we as American Citizens enjoy.

It happens to be one of those small prices one must pay for "FREEDOM" and the rights to enjoy it."

Yes, Thomas as long as you support the Bush Administration and their noble track record since he assumed office, (Where do I begin, 9-11 intrigues, False WMD's intelligence manipulation, Not enough soldiers to do the job, Valerie Plame affair, Katrina fiasco, NSA Wiretap Scandal, and the newest abomination 'appointing a new boss over Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald to help him arrive at the "politically correct" version of what went down' I suppose if you feel comfortable with that type of leadership and subsequent direction our country has taken, there is indeed nothing to fear.

I suppose the difference between your view and mine might be presented in an analysis of hawks Rumsfeld and Cheney; I am sure you view them as 'honorable men.' You know what comes to my mind?

The name of Frank Olson. You remember Frank don't you. The CIA scientist who 'jumped out of a building to his death', or was he 'struck on the head and thrown out', well whatever. Franks's son and his widow actually thought visiting then President Ford might help, and indeed maybe it would have if Dick Cheney hadn't been a senior White House Ass't and Rumsfeld the White House Chief of Staff. Although the President appeared genuinely sincere in wanting to help his family 'get to the bottom' of why their father had died, he apparently didn't know that Cheney and Rumsfeld had other ideas. Consider this Cheney memo excerpt,

"“the Olson lawyers will seek to explore all the circumstances of Dr Olson’s employment, as well as those concerning his death. In any trial, it may become apparent that we are concealing evidence for national security reasons and any settlement or judgement reached thereafter could be perceived as money paid to cover up the activities of the CIA”.

But the freedom that you talk about, I suppose is the same type of freedom that have resulted in the aforementioned 'heroes' never having to account for their deeds, yes 'National Security' its the perfect excuse for about any revolting activity that takes place in these United States. And so it goes......

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

I am a high school social studies teacher, and I am beginning to wonder if I should teach the Constitution anymore. Its really a lie to teach kids who could be in Iraq next year that checks and balances exist in the year 2006.

The opperative constitution right now is NSC-68.

I am amazed at the blasse response to the satelite spying. In a way it is worse than the British Quartering Act; at least the American colonists knew that there rights were being violated and could formualte a broad

collective response.

These satelite violaters can let the state creep through your door into your living room and you won't know it Which is the more certain path to tyrany?

If you put your finger in a candle I hope you feel pain. Its a usefull alert that you had better get your body away from the fire. Right now the body politic is in the flame of the state, and we can't feel a thing. The death of liberty might be comfortable.

[Frank Agbat]

I'm going to throw a few non-political facts into the fray here, for whatever they are worth.

1 -- Hotmail, the system about which you are speaking, is based on Microsoft Exchange. The message you are receiving is a normal and expected part of using a Microsoft e-mail server. It merely means that the message has entered the "to be sent" queue, but has not successfully been delivered to the recipient within a certain period of time (configured by an admin). The system will continue to retry sending until a second threshold is met (a timeout), at which a time the message will be flagged as undeliverable and you will be notified. This message, although poorly (even ominously) worded, is common and harmless in any Microsoft system. (Note: it is common in computers to use the term 'warning' and 'error'. An error is a problem - a showstopper. A warning is an alert to a possible problem, but not necessarily a showstopper).

2 -- Any number of things can cause this message to crop up. The most common are:

a) The remote server is unreachable (the e-mail server that houses your recipient's mailbox)

The recipient's mailbox is full

c) DNS is messed up and your e-mail server cannot resolve the name of the recipient's e-mail server

d) A network connection could be down or full (preventing no or little throughput)

e) There may be a problem with one of hotmail's servers

f) one or more of the target servers could be very busy and unable to service requests

g) Routing problems somewhere on the internet

h) DOS attack, etc, etc, affecting the target, or any midpoint system.

3 -- There is a great likelihood that the problems you are experiencing are *not* sinister in nature.

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That said, some technical notes on e-mail:

1 -- E-mail is one of the most NON-SECURE systems out there. It is getting better, slowly, but the legacy protocols are still in abundance and are not secure by any sense of the word.

2 -- Traditional e-mail crosses the wire "in the clear." This means that the headers (information used by intermediary systems to deliver the mail) are not encrypted and easily read. Furthermore, the body of the message is also in the clear (again, not encrypted). So, if you are using a traditional POP3/SMTP e-mail system (POP3 = "post office protocol v. 3" SMTP = Simple Mail Transport Protocol"), your messages are about as insecure as can be. EVEN YOUR E-MAIL PASSWORD is in the clear with these older protocols.

3 -- Intercepting and reading non-encrypted e-mail is not the least bit difficult (first or second year networking students learn various ways that this can be accomplished). If an intelligence agency wanted to read your e-mail, they could.

4 -- Detecting interception of non-encrypted e-mails is a tricky business, and often nearly impossible unless alternate techniques to provoke action (and exposure) from the interceptor is done.

5 -- It is possible to encrypt the body of the e-mail while maintaining compatibility with older protocols using something like PGP. The only effect this truly has is to delay someone who might wish to read your mail, as key handling by such protocols can be problematic.

6 -- You can connect to a service (like Hotmail, incidentally) that uses SSL (https) to encrypt the session. This will defeat simple packet sniffing at the outgoing ISP level, but is not secure if the message is delivered to a legacy-based e-mail recipient (in other words, the link to hotmail is secure, but the link from hotmail to the recipient probably isn't).

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At the end of the day, so to speak, the fact is that if an intel agency wanted to read your e-mail, they could and you'd probably never know it. I find it highly unlikely that this standard Microsoft warning message -- one that I have received numerous times from servers that I own and operate -- is being used by an intel agency or a 'government authority' to send someone a veiled warning message.