Ron Ecker Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 How could Sirhan, firing from a few feet in front, have killed RFK when coroner Noguchi stated that the fatal shot was fired point-blank behind the ear including powder burns? I thought that JFK researchers (aside from LNs) were well beyond buying magic bullet stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 No, Cheney didn't pilot any hijacked aircraft, but he sat in the White House and tracked one as it made its way to the Pentagon, while the Pentagon knew nothing about it. He did this with the help of a military aide (whom he snapped at when the aide nervously asked if "the order still stands") and in the presence of Cabinet member Norman Mineta, who was too stupid to keep his mouth shut about what he saw. You can read Mineta's commission testimony. Cheney and his people later lied about where he was at the time.And I can tell you what upsets me more today than Holocaust deniers, and that's 9/11 deniers when it comes to who did it. Silly me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stapleton Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 By the way, Ron, have you no shame in accepting something of value (well, maybe not) from a man who is not deeply disturbed by the horrors of the Holocaust? That's a fine statement coming from someone who supports the Bush/Cheney regime, which gave us the horrors of 9/11 and the obscenity in Iraq. You look out for your financial affairs and I'll look out for mine. Nicely put, Ron. Tim, MCP is sending me a copy, too. Don't try to use moral arguments to dissuade people from reading a book. If it's rubbish I'll dismiss it and I'm sure Ron will too. The day I tell you what to read is the day you can tell me what to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Silly me See what I mean by "9/11 deniers"? You didn't read Mineta's testimony, did you. Just laugh it off about Cheney. But give those Holocaust deniers hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 How could Sirhan, firing from a few feet in front, have killed RFK when coroner Noguchi stated that the fatal shot was fired point-blank behind the ear including powder burns?I thought that JFK researchers (aside from LNs) were well beyond buying magic bullet stories. Ron, This is a nice site that puts it all very succinctly. A good read. http://www.citizinemag.com/politics/politi..._rfk_twhite.htm - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Silly me See what I mean by "9/11 deniers"? You didn't read Mineta's testimony, did you. Just laugh it off about Cheney. But give those Holocaust deniers hell! Am happy to read anything plausible you are able to provide which substantiates your theory. And yes I will continue to give Neo Nazis and holocaust deniers hell - thanks for the encouragement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Am happy to read anything plausible you are able to provide which substantiates your theory. And you don't find 9/11 commission testimony to be plausible? Then on what do you base your denial? I don't find a lot of it plausible either (government officials covering their butts), but Mineta was an outsider who simply stated what he observed, and the 9/11 commission didn't know what to do about it, so it basically ignored him. But forget it. I know when I'm beating my head against a stone wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 I know when I'm beating my head against a stone wall. I would beg to differ. But never mind I am sure I will be able to find enlightenment on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Pat, 'twas you who said Sirhan was a Christian.Remember RFK's eldest daughter, an accomplished politician, believes that it was her father's support for Israel that got him killed. Perhaps the anti-Zionists killed JFK as well. Remember he was the first president to stop the arms embargo to Israel and to sell Israel Hawk missiles. Sirhan WAS a Christian, raised by a devout mother. I'm not sure that he considered himself a Christian in 1968, and I'm not sure he would consider himself a Christian today, but he was raised in the church. He celebrated Christmas, not Ramadan. The article you cited, by stating that Sirhan was a Muslim, ws either an article written by someone ignorant of the basic facts of Sirhan's life, or an article created with the deliberate intent of blaming Islam to RFK's killing. I suspect our friend Piper would say the latter. As far as what RFK's daughter said, come on. Of course, she wants to give her father's death some meaning. As an east coast politician, she knows how important the tie to Israel can be. She gets up in front of them, tells them what both she and her constituents want to believe, and you take it as some statement of fact. Read books by Robert Blair Kaiser, Godfrey Isaac, William Turner. Phil Melanson, and Dan Moldea before you leap to any conclusions about Sirhan's motivation. Sirhan may have killed Kennedy, or merely have been a party to his death--he's certainly no innocent babe--but the attempts to portray Sirhan as a dedicated terrorist are no more convincing than the attempts to portray Oswald as a dedicated communist. And quite possibly serve the same purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 By the way, Ron, have you no shame in accepting something of value (well, maybe not) from a man who is not deeply disturbed by the horrors of the Holocaust? That's a fine statement coming from someone who supports the Bush/Cheney regime, which gave us the horrors of 9/11 and the obscenity in Iraq. You look out for your financial affairs and I'll look out for mine. I'd agree about the "obscenity in Iraq" but much as I dislike Bush and Cheney I can't recall them flying those planes into the Twin Towers (unless of course I have missed out on yet another bizarre conspiracy theory). The point worth remembering about the crapulent and corpulent Piper is that he is a known and celebrated holocaust denier - by definition a falsifier of the past. A sensible researcher would bear this in mind when analyzing any of his assertions. Andy, I haven't went back and re-read every post by Piper, but I seem to recall him stating numerous times that he was not a holocaust denier. By saying that he was bored with it, I took this as an acknowledgement that it at least had occurred. As far as Cheney/9/11 conspiracy theories, I read much of the 9/11 report, and as I remember it the Commission discovered that we gave the order to scramble jets and intercept the plane bound for the Pentagon, only the jets inexplicably scrambled out to sea in the opposite direction of the flight. If Cheney sat there and watched the whole thing happen, it was quite possibly because has helpless due to military incompetence. Sirhan may have killed Kennedy but I suspect Rosicrucianism or hypnotism or good ole LSD had as much to do with it as Palestinian Nationalism. Pat, have you ever dropped acid? From what I've read attempts to use it as a "mind control" drug or truth serum utterly failed and my own "experimentation" leads me to believe that such an application isn't feasible. Nor have I heard about any credible reports that making someone in to a "Manchurian Candidate" is possible. My comment about LSD was not meant to be taken in the MK/ULTRA context, but in the "1968 drop acid until you live in an altered state of reality" context. I don't thiink there's any evidence that Sirhan was doing drugs to that extent, but those who've looked at his notebooks know that there is something going on there. The notebook represents something more than a laundry list of things to do... "1. Buy more laundry detergent. Coupon on the dresser. 2. Kill RFK." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) As far as Cheney/9/11 conspiracy theories, I read much of the 9/11 report, and as I remember it the Commission discovered that we gave the order to scramble jets and intercept the plane bound for the Pentagon, only the jets inexplicably scrambled out to sea in the opposite direction of the flight. If Cheney sat there and watched the whole thing happen, it was quite possibly because has helpless due to military incompetence. There was no shootdown order before around 10 am at the earliest (some 20 minutes after the Pentagon was hit), and it was with regard to Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania. The plane Mineta earlier observed Cheney and a military aide tracking was Flight 77, which would crash into the Pentagon. Jet fighters had been scrambled (far away) before the Pentagon was hit, but that is not the same thing as a shootdown order. And Cheney's military aide would of course not be nervously asking "does the order still stand?" about getting some fighters in the air. (Why would interceptors be recalled when they're sitting there tracking a hijacked plane?) He had to be talking about some other specific order, about which the commission report is understandably silent. Edited February 21, 2006 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) And I can tell you what upsets me more today than Holocaust deniers, and that's 9/11 deniers when it comes to who did it. Silly me See what I mean by "9/11 deniers"? You didn't read Mineta's testimony, did you. Just laugh it off about Cheney. But give those Holocaust deniers hell! Ron – I must say that I find your comparison of people who don't believe the unsubstantiated theories that 9/11 was "an inside job" to Holocaust deniers offensive. You are in effect comparing us to neo-Nazis and other rightwing crackpots. "9/11 deniers" as you call us come from a wide variety of ideological backgrounds, including many people on the left (Chip Bertlett, Edward Said, Alexander Cockburn and Noam Chomsky among others) and are driven by a commitment to the truth. Many people who reject the Warren Report also reject 9/11 "conspiracy theories" Truth be told Holocaust denial has a lot in common with "inside job" theories, both present revisionist versions of history with zero backing from any qualified experts. The collapse of the Twin Towers was the subject of two major reports and numerous independent scientific papers all of which are in basic agreement. Most of these papers were written by American scientists but some were written by experts from Europe, Oceania and Asia*. Dozens if not hundreds of scientists have contributed to these reports and thousand more have reviewed them. The "9/11 truth movement" on the other hand has yet to find a single qualified expert, out of the millions worldwide**, to back it's theories or publish a single peer reviewed paper. 9/11 Controlled demo theories like Holocaust denial, creation science and Apollo hoax theories has back from PhD's, but they all got their degrees in unrelated fields Both movements are ideologically driven most people who believe the Bush administration carried out 9/11 are from the extreme left or extreme right or are confirmed CTists. There is indeed a significant over lap between Holocaust deniers and 9/11 "inside job" believers. While probably only a minority of "inside job" believers are Holocaust deniers, as far as I can tell all Holocaust deniers support the "inside job" theory. In addition a large part of the "9/11 Truth Movement" (such as Scholars for 9/11 Truth) show little qualms about working together with Holocaust deniers like Christopher Bollyn, Eric Hufschmidt and Jeff Rense. Did the Bush administration some how cause 9/11 to happen or know what was coming and purposely fail to act? These theories are plausible but there is little credible evidence backing them. The controlled demolition of the WTC theories are bunk on the same level as creationism, "Apollo hoax" theories, chemtrails and yes Holocaust denial. This thread is going off track, I won't discuss 9/11 or the RFK assassination here anymore. There are appropriate sub-forums and threads for these subjects. Len PS - Ron are Steve Turner, Andy Walker and I really worse than Willis Carto and David Irving? PPS -Ron put the "smoking gun" quote from Minetta in a post in a 9/11 thread *There is even one from a University in Beijing and others written by engineers with Arab or Muslim sounding names. http://911myths.com/html/fire_temperature.html **By qualified experts I mean civil engineers (esp. structural or construction), licensed architects, fire engineers, demolitions experts, failure analysis specialists and construction contractors. There are 200,000 civil engineers and architects in the US alone. Edited February 22, 2006 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Len, I'm bitter about 9/11 and the bastards who run this country and it shows. I don't care who's offended or who thinks I'm nuts or what you or anyone else compares it to. And that's the last I intend to say on the subject, because (as I have stated before) it's a waste of time. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) Two books by respected historical scholars now demolish the entire premise of Piper's book. See thread "The Book That Demolishes 'Final Judgment' ". Both books conclude that it was under JFK that the close alliance between the US and Israel was forged. Edited February 22, 2006 by Tim Gratz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) Gerry Hemming has reminded me that his primary contact for access to the Kennedy White House was a New York financier named Theodore Racoosin who was very close to the Kennedys. Racoosin was known as one of the five founders of the State of Israel. There is a professional "chair" named for Racoosin at the respected Weizmann Institute for Science in Rehovet, Israel. There is also a Theodore Racoosin Chair of Talmud and Rabbincs at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York City. New York University has a program of Theodore Racoosin scholars. Clearly Mr. Racoosin was a remarkable man. Does it make any sense whatsoever that Israel would kill a President who was so closely affiliated with one of its founders? Of course not. Edited February 22, 2006 by Tim Gratz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now