Dealy Plaza Survey Data

[Jack White]

The yellow paint was on the shoes of Beverly Oliver. She still

has the shoes. The paint is still on the soles. The shoes are

identical to the ones she is pictured wearing in Dealey Plaza.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

There is absolutely ZERO/NATA/ZILCH survey information related to any purported bullet strike on the street curb in this location/vicinity.

This is to include ALL THREE (or 4) of the survey works:

1. Time/Life---------11/25/63

2. US Secret Service w/FBI Assistance-----12/ (2, 3, 4, & 5th) 63

3. FBI-------------2/7/63

4. WC

And even though Mr. West sent me copies of a newspaper photo which claimed to show Dallas Police looking for bullets & bullet marks down at the manhole inlet, there was no survey work done for any such bullet strike there either.

The one and only "curb strike" was the Tague location.

If not incorrect, that is the "self-proclaimed" drawing as made by a researcher, which you have posted.

Rest assured, Mr. West never made any reference to any "curb strike" in the area designated.

Tom,

I could swear that I read an account - will search for it. Books take longer to find references than computers.

There were three of these stripes, each was 3-feet in length, and they were equidistant in separation as to their painted location.

Roberdeau is the one who created that plat. He also has the yellow marks continuing along Elm at intervals all the way to the underpass. I think he may be correct. I tried to highlight the area above 2 of them.

- lee

[Jack White]

It has been a long time since I recorded all the yellow stripes,

but I think there were originally four...all along the south Elm curb.

Jack

[Jack White]

On November 22, the yellow stripes had white bands on each end.

[Lee Forman]

It has been a long time since I recorded all the yellow stripes,

but I think there were originally four...all along the south Elm curb.

Jack

Don Roberdeau has eight [8] on his plat, at intervals, all the way to the underpass. Maybe he could tell us how he recorded these markers on his plat.

- lee

[Guest John Gillespie]

'Thomas H. Purvis' wrote:

In order to assure that the record and history are correct regarding the integrity and honor of Mr. Robert West*, and that he played no part in the WC lies and coverup of facts of the assassination of JFK, it is my hope that should anyone at any time question the integrity of Mr. West, that they be thereafter referred to this topic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Since many of the CT group has at one time or another attempted to impune the integrity of virtually everyone else, I would expect that sooner or later Mr. West will fall under the umbrella of their claims.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Having corresponded with Mr. West on several occassions, as well as having visited him in his home on at least two separate occassions, there can be little doubt that Mr. West played absolutely no intentional role in the misrepresentation of facts as relates to the survey work in Dealy Plaza, which was directly related to the assassination of JFK.

In Fact, Mr. West fully questioned the work of the WC, and merely "wrote it off" as a bunch of politicians and FBI personnel who did not know what they wanted and/or how to go about achieving it.

In that regard, Mr. West shared many stories about those items which "did not make any sense" during his WC survey/re-enactment work.

As a result of the open, forthright, and honest discussions which Mr. West shared with me, it was quite obvious that he played no part in the WC obfuscation of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

In fact, Mr. West was quite astonished when I personally presented to him, at him home in Dallas, that information relative to where the WC had "changed" data on his survey work.

He also could not believe that they had gotten away with the manner in which his actual survey was admitted into evidence in a "sealed" envelope without ever being opened and examined.

In that regard, Mr. West, who was now fully retired, shared with me copies of all survey notes and survey plats related the the assassination re-enactments in Dealy Plaza.

To that end, few if any were even aware of the fact that Mr. West had done survey work, as well as having completed a survey plat, for Time/Life Magazine on 11/25/63.

This of course also includes the later work done for the US Secret Service and completed on 12/5/63.

As well as the later work done for the FBI and completed on 2/7/64.

Then there is the work as done for the WC and completed on 6/25/64 in which the impact point for the third/last/final shot has been deleted, yet still contains the impact point for the first and second shots.

Which too was apparantly unacceptable!

And ultimately ended with a "re-drawn" survey plat which now deleted the First Shot, and had a line drawn shortly prior to this shot at "Point A"*, and now showed only impact point for the Z-313 head shot.

dgh: Tom -- does the above square with what we see in the Zapruder camera original, more recently called the MPI DVD piece?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*With this little "slicky boy" move the WC created a large survey plat which showed positions and angles to "Point A", on the map/plat.

Previous survey plats showed lines drawn to the impact point for shot#1, however even that copy of the other survey data as presented into evidence, is reduced to the extent that one can not distinguish between the fact that the SS Plat is drawn to Shot#1 whereas the WC Survey Plat in drawn to "Point A", which was located by the WC shortly prior to impact point for the first shot.

dgh: did Mr. West work with photos provided by the SS/FBI when conducting his Dealey Plaza survey work for same? If so, who provided the photos? And, where those photos part of his submission when he completed the work?

ALL survey work (Time/Life--SS/FBI (1 &2) demonstrate the impact point for shot#1, with the downward angles drawn onto the survey plat.

dgh: Time-Life? when was their DP survey work completed? Were they copied, under seperate cover, the SS/FBI plat work?

The WC made this work disappear and thereafter "blend" in to "Point A"!

In addition, of course, to making shot# 3 impact point disappear as well.

dgh: Referencing current Z-film frame numbers - re Mr. West's plat work for the SS/FBI, that would put the 3rd shot impact point happening around what, Z-355? Closer to the knoll stairs on the north side of Elm...? Course these frame numbers are arbitrary IF the Z-film was altered, further down Elm none-the-less?

Thanks - David Healy

Dave.

Jim Marrs has quite a bit to say on this topic, including his survey/surveyor discussions with Mr. West and the manipulation of data. Hope he jumps in on this.

Regards,

JG

The yellow paint was on the shoes of Beverly Oliver. She still

has the shoes. The paint is still on the soles. The shoes are

identical to the ones she is pictured wearing in Dealey Plaza.

Jack

I don't think this sort of thing helps; it looks like something from Oliver Stone. I want to believe the yellow paint on her shoes and everything else about the truly solid research done about these markings, but this is a B&W picture enhanced for ... what, dramatic effect (as Stone himself would say)?

We can see the shadows and from what direction the sun is shining. C'mon, we're better than this. It gives fodder to the Posners, et al.

JG

[Jack White]

'Thomas H. Purvis' wrote:

In order to assure that the record and history are correct regarding the integrity and honor of Mr. Robert West*, and that he played no part in the WC lies and coverup of facts of the assassination of JFK, it is my hope that should anyone at any time question the integrity of Mr. West, that they be thereafter referred to this topic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Since many of the CT group has at one time or another attempted to impune the integrity of virtually everyone else, I would expect that sooner or later Mr. West will fall under the umbrella of their claims.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Having corresponded with Mr. West on several occassions, as well as having visited him in his home on at least two separate occassions, there can be little doubt that Mr. West played absolutely no intentional role in the misrepresentation of facts as relates to the survey work in Dealy Plaza, which was directly related to the assassination of JFK.

In Fact, Mr. West fully questioned the work of the WC, and merely "wrote it off" as a bunch of politicians and FBI personnel who did not know what they wanted and/or how to go about achieving it.

In that regard, Mr. West shared many stories about those items which "did not make any sense" during his WC survey/re-enactment work.

As a result of the open, forthright, and honest discussions which Mr. West shared with me, it was quite obvious that he played no part in the WC obfuscation of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

In fact, Mr. West was quite astonished when I personally presented to him, at him home in Dallas, that information relative to where the WC had "changed" data on his survey work.

He also could not believe that they had gotten away with the manner in which his actual survey was admitted into evidence in a "sealed" envelope without ever being opened and examined.

In that regard, Mr. West, who was now fully retired, shared with me copies of all survey notes and survey plats related the the assassination re-enactments in Dealy Plaza.

To that end, few if any were even aware of the fact that Mr. West had done survey work, as well as having completed a survey plat, for Time/Life Magazine on 11/25/63.

This of course also includes the later work done for the US Secret Service and completed on 12/5/63.

As well as the later work done for the FBI and completed on 2/7/64.

Then there is the work as done for the WC and completed on 6/25/64 in which the impact point for the third/last/final shot has been deleted, yet still contains the impact point for the first and second shots.

Which too was apparantly unacceptable!

And ultimately ended with a "re-drawn" survey plat which now deleted the First Shot, and had a line drawn shortly prior to this shot at "Point A"*, and now showed only impact point for the Z-313 head shot.

dgh: Tom -- does the above square with what we see in the Zapruder camera original, more recently called the MPI DVD piece?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*With this little "slicky boy" move the WC created a large survey plat which showed positions and angles to "Point A", on the map/plat.

Previous survey plats showed lines drawn to the impact point for shot#1, however even that copy of the other survey data as presented into evidence, is reduced to the extent that one can not distinguish between the fact that the SS Plat is drawn to Shot#1 whereas the WC Survey Plat in drawn to "Point A", which was located by the WC shortly prior to impact point for the first shot.

dgh: did Mr. West work with photos provided by the SS/FBI when conducting his Dealey Plaza survey work for same? If so, who provided the photos? And, where those photos part of his submission when he completed the work?

ALL survey work (Time/Life--SS/FBI (1 &2) demonstrate the impact point for shot#1, with the downward angles drawn onto the survey plat.

dgh: Time-Life? when was their DP survey work completed? Were they copied, under seperate cover, the SS/FBI plat work?

The WC made this work disappear and thereafter "blend" in to "Point A"!

In addition, of course, to making shot# 3 impact point disappear as well.

dgh: Referencing current Z-film frame numbers - re Mr. West's plat work for the SS/FBI, that would put the 3rd shot impact point happening around what, Z-355? Closer to the knoll stairs on the north side of Elm...? Course these frame numbers are arbitrary IF the Z-film was altered, further down Elm none-the-less?

Thanks - David Healy

Dave.

Jim Marrs has quite a bit to say on this topic, including his survey/surveyor discussions with Mr. West and the manipulation of data. Hope he jumps in on this.

Regards,

JG

The yellow paint was on the shoes of Beverly Oliver. She still

has the shoes. The paint is still on the soles. The shoes are

identical to the ones she is pictured wearing in Dealey Plaza.

Jack

I don't think this sort of thing helps; it looks like something from Oliver Stone. I want to believe the yellow paint on her shoes and everything else about the truly solid research done about these markings, but this is a B&W picture enhanced for ... what, dramatic effect (as Stone himself would say)?

We can see the shadows and from what direction the sun is shining. C'mon, we're better than this. It gives fodder to the Posners, et al.

JG

I do not understand the last comment. The black and white photo of Beverly

was NOT enhanced. It is NOT intended to show PAINT on the shoes, but that

the shoes are identical to the ones she had packed away for forty years. I

saw the shoes. I saw the yellow paint. So did Dr. Fetzer and Dr. Mantik.

All three of us agree that the paint matched the curb stripe yellow, and that

the shoes match the photo of the shoes. Are you accusing the three of us

of lying...when you have NOT seen the shoes yourself? C'mon, you are

better than this. Speculation is not research.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

Dave.

Jim Marrs has quite a bit to say on this topic, including his survey/surveyor discussions with Mr. West and the manipulation of data. Hope he jumps in on this.

Regards,

JG

John - coincidentally, I sent him an email yesterday, asking if he would join in. Marrs was the reference I was looking to find. He also apparently had an original of the West survey that was provided to the Warren Commission. I would like to see the area in question. Hopefully he will reply.

In the meanwhile, I will also ask Don Roberdeau the 2 questions at hand, as relate to where the reference info came from on his plat - the yellow marks, and the alleged 'curb strike' on Elm.

- lee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Dave.

Jim Marrs has quite a bit to say on this topic, including his survey/surveyor discussions with Mr. West and the manipulation of data. Hope he jumps in on this.

Regards,

JG

John - coincidentally, I sent him an email yesterday, asking if he would join in. Marrs was the reference I was looking to find. He also apparently had an original of the West survey that was provided to the Warren Commission. I would like to see the area in question. Hopefully he will reply.

In the meanwhile, I will also ask Don Roberdeau the 2 questions at hand, as relate to where the reference info came from on his plat - the yellow marks, and the alleged 'curb strike' on Elm.

- lee

Mr. West surveyed in (as well as plated on his survey charts) the first three yellow marks, which are:

1. The first stripe being that one where Jean Hill is seen standing close to, and which the Presidential Limo had just passed at the time of the Z312/313 headshot.

2. The second stripe being that one which was some 3+ feet past the location where James Altgens was standing.

3. The third stripe being approximately 20 feet prior to the concrete curb inlet/drain. This is the one seen in the background when Jackie is out on the trunk of the Presidential Limo at/about Z 384/385.

Mr. West, in other notes, made reference to an additional yellow mark which was located further down the street. This reference had to do with his handwritten notes regarding the Tague curb strike.

Based on the given spacing, and the remaining distance of Elm St., there could have been an additional 4 yellow marks painted onto the curb prior to reaching the overpass, for a total of 7 yellow stripes.

Z410 thru Z413 shows what appears to be the next stripe in the progression, and this stripe is past the area of grass between the Elm St. curb and the Main St. Curb. This would stripe#4

Shortly thereafter, Z421 and Z422 show what appears to be an additional yellow stripe located just at the bottom left edge of the Ft. Worth Turnpike sign. This would be stripe#5

Thereafter, Z426 & Z427 show what would appear to be the next (6th) yellow mark, which can be seen just to the right side of the Ft. Worth Turnpike sign.

Z436 again shows this yellow mark, and also shows what would appear to be the last mark on the curb, just prior to reaching the overpass. #7

This yellow mark can be clearly seen in Z441.

It would appear that the last two observed yellow marks on the curb are considerably closer together than some of the previous ones.

nevertheless, it would appear that at least 7 of these marks can be clearly observed on the film.

[Jack White]

It is easy for someone who has never been to the plaza looking for

yellow curb stripes TO SPECULATE.

I have spent several hours looking. I found the three seen in the Z film,

and one other. I measured them. I photographed them. I compared the

length of the measured ones to the ones in Zapruder and found that

sometime in the intervening years the three stripes seen in Zapruder

had been painted longer. (see attachment) I do speculate that I have

studied the yellow stripes more than any other researcher.

I ask that anyone who has photos of other stripes than the three seen

in Zapruder to please post them.

Jack

PS...the first stripe is by MARY MOORMAN'S LEFT FOOT, not Jean Hill's.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Jack White

[Lee Forman]

It is easy for someone who has never been to the plaza looking for

yellow curb stripes TO SPECULATE.

I have spent several hours looking. I found the three seen in the Z film,

and one other. I measured them. I photographed them. I compared the

length of the measured ones to the ones in Zapruder and found that

sometime in the intervening years the three stripes seen in Zapruder

had been painted longer. (see attachment) I do speculate that I have

studied the yellow stripes more than any other researcher.

I ask that anyone who has photos of other stripes than the three seen

in Zapruder to please post them.

Jack

PS...the first stripe is by MARY MOORMAN'S LEFT FOOT, not Jean Hill's.

Jack,

I posted the B&Ws in this thread where it appeared the curbmarks were. If you'd like I will email you the scans - they're sizeable files.

I also think I see them in Zapruder beyond the 3 you have mentioned?

- lee

[Jack White]

(text revised per comments of Tom Purvis)

Lee...the frame you attached is the THIRD stripe westward from Moorman.

Attached is a panoramic view of all three of the stripes. I believe there

was a fourth one west of number three.

Jack

Thanks, Tom, for straightening me out.

Edited March 17, 2006 by Jack White

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Lee...the frame you attached appears to be the FOURTH one I found on the south Elm curb

while actually in the plaza looking for other yellow curb markings.

It is well beyond the shooting zone, so I did not study it much. I had not seen it before in Zfilm.

Thanks for pointing it out. I have lightened the frame to show it better. Note that like the others,

it has the white markings at each end of the yellow.

Jack

"3. The third stripe being approximately 20 feet prior to the concrete curb inlet/drain. This is the one seen in the background when Jackie is out on the trunk of the Presidential Limo at/about Z 384/385."

This is stripe#3 and is clearly marked on the survey plat completed by Mr. West, as well as within his survey notes.

[Jack White]

Thanks for correcting me, Tom. Here is a revised graphic.

Jack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For someone who can not seem to remember who it was that was standing beside the first yellow stripe, I do occassionally have my "sudden" and completely unexpected moments/attacks of limited intelligence.