Suspicious Vehicles and 11/22/63

[Chris Davidson]

Thomas,

Hopefully this helps.

chris

[J. William King]

Thomas,

Hopefully this helps.

chris

That may well be the same vehicle that Thomas was referring to in the other post.

However, this photo was taken much later when they were taking Danny Arce and his coworkers down to the DPD.

As for the car, based on the above photo, it looks to me like it might be either a '59 or '60 full sized Chevy wagon, but

I just can't be sure.

Thanks Thomas. Gary Mack told me that the Murray photo I posted was taken within 5 minutes of the assassination.

I've never heard whether the mystery Ramber was the full sized one, or the American, but that photo establishes

the fact that there was a light colored Rambler wagon at Elm and Houston within a couple of minutes of the shooting.

JWK

Edited November 25, 2007 by J. William King

[James Richards]

The vehicle in the image Chris posted looks to me like either a 1960 Chevy Kingswood wagon or maybe a 1960 Chevy Nomad wagon.

James

[Robert Howard]

The vehicle in the image Chris posted looks to me like either a 1960 Chevy Kingswood wagon or maybe a 1960 Chevy Nomad wagon.

James

[Robert Howard]

The vehicle in the image Chris posted looks to me like either a 1960 Chevy Kingswood wagon or maybe a 1960 Chevy Nomad wagon.

James

[Robert Howard]

With apologies to those who are trying to view the attachments I have been "trying" to post.

[the material, 2 .gif documents, cannot be uploaded in a single post but when I attempt to add the 2nd gif, it bumps the first one off the thread.

Anyway, for those who are familar with the 1949 or 1950 Black Ford, that pops up in the account of the "man and woman" who pick up "Lee Oswald," from the Lucas B&B the City of Dallas Archives has an interesting couple of documents which seem to be related.....

They are located in

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/02/0267-001.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/02/0267-002.gif

[Robert Howard]

Mary Ferrell Chronologies, Volume 4 - November 22, 1963

Current Section: November 22, 1963 - 2:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=485694

Current Section: CE 705 - Radio log of channel 1 of the Dallas Police Department for November 22, 1963.

Disp: 41 and 45 - 5818 Belmont. have information that person just got out of a car with a rifle at this location 2:19 p.m

41 10-4

45 10-4

47 What is the address I'll go over there to?

Disp: 5818 Belmont.

47 10-4

41 I am down town. do you want 47 to handle my end?

Disp Yes, continue in that direction.

320: The subject in this car - what is he supposed to have?

Disp White male - 20? I don’t know 320, Just a white male 20. Signal 32.

320: 10-4

Dispatcher: ‘49 [stanglin] and 47 [Morris] For your information reported to have gotten out of a light-green two-tone car and went to this apartment, 5818 Belmont.

45 Stanglin: “Received”

47 Morris: “Received”

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source...tnG=Search+Maps

Edited March 9, 2009 by Robert Howard

[John Dolva]

Mary Ferrell Chronologies, Volume 4 - November 22, 1963

Current Section: November 22, 1963 - 2:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=485694

Current Section: CE 705 - Radio log of channel 1 of the Dallas Police Department for November 22, 1963.

Disp: 41 and 45 - 5818 Belmont. have information that person just got out of a car with a rifle at this location 2:19 p.m

41 10-4

45 10-4

47 What is the address I'll go over there to?

Disp: 5818 Belmont.

47 10-4

41 I am down town. do you want 47 to handle my end?

Disp Yes, continue in that direction.

320: The subject in this car - what is he supposed to have?

Disp White male - 20? I don’t know 320, Just a white male 20. Signal 32.

320: 10-4

Dispatcher: ‘49 [stanglin] and 47 [Morris] For your information reported to have gotten out of a light-green two-tone car and went to this apartment, 5818 Belmont.

45 Stanglin: “Received”

47 Morris: “Received”

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source...tnG=Search+Maps

transcripts give licence plate RD8950 and RB8950

[Duke Lane]

Explanation needed?

Yes, please. I don't follow how it ties into the account of the "man and woman" who pick up "Lee Oswald," from the Lucas B&B in a black 1949 or 1950 Ford and a case of nosey neighbors making a stink about a car owned by another neighbor they apparently didn't like (which reminds me of some people in my homeowners' association!) and the Hunsaker account, which 5818 Belmont relates to.

That story is a little confusing as well. While we hear about the report on the radio about this two-toned car, I can't say that I've ever heard why there was any report on that car. Story has it that the license plate, car, and/or address was tied to a conservative (some would say "right-wing," and he might even have been a "states' rights" guy) and possibly disbarred attorney by the name of Hunsaker.

What made that something of a sensation is that Donald Wayne House had travelled from his home in Ranger, about 100 miles west of Fort Worth (130 miles west of Dallas) to visit an old army buddy or something by the name of Randy Hunsaker. Legend has it that House had driven the distance, gone into downtown after getting turned around (lost), parked in a lot to use a payphone to call said buddy, was unable to connect (bummer!), then returned to his car with the apparent idea of returning home, but was unable to leave downtown because of the parade. (House has made himself singularly unavailable to anyone except Star-Telegram reporters every ten or twenty years or so, so I haven't verified any of this.)

I don't remember everything that the story related - for example, whether House was supposed to have gotten out of the car and watched the parade or not - but the end result of it is that, on his way back west, he stopped at a gas station in Grand Prairie along the old Fort Worth Turnpike (now Interstate 30), and for some reason a woman there called the cops saying he looked suspicious, etc. House ended up being taken into custody in Fort Worth after getting off the highway and along the way to visiting his cousin. The whole of that part of the story is related in my "Cowtown Connection" article, which someone reproduced on this forum.

As to the deal with the two-toned car (a pretty common thing back then; House also had a two-toned Ford as I recall, FWIW) at Belmont and the attorney Hunsaker, like I said, I've never heard anything about the background or the resolution of that chapter of the story. As far as I know, its only modicum of interest is the shared last name of House's buddy and the attorney, and then only because House got "arrested" at the same time as (ahem!) David Atlee Phillips (aka Ken Wilson) in Fort Worth, and of course, House's supposed similiarity in appearance to Oswald.

Absent that non-connection, what else makes it interesting - it wasn't anywhere near the Harlandale "safe house," for instance - and how does it tie in with these black Fords?

[John Dolva]

Interesting,. So that's 'úptown'.

Up there, in the opposite direction to where the cops were drawn by the Tippit shooting et.c.. Up there around White Rock Lake (with a spooky history of 'strange rituals', concrete shoes...) lived Clint, Holmes and others of interest. A logical place to go and hole up for the Money.

[Robert Howard]

Yes, please. I don't follow how it ties into the account of the "man and woman" who pick up "Lee Oswald," from the Lucas B&B in a black 1949 or 1950 Ford and a case of nosey neighbors making a stink about a car owned by another neighbor they apparently didn't like (which reminds me of some people in my homeowners' association!) and the Hunsaker account, which 5818 Belmont relates to.

My post was in response to Steve Thomas post #73 on page 5 of this thread.

[Lee Forman]

The C54 McDonnell Douglas that Robert Vinson claimed picked up the two men close to the Trinity River in his book 'Flight from Dallas' was met by a yellow Jeep. Too much of a coincident on the Redbird incident - which Hemming told me was also a C54 - he said he had a photo of the plane in question, which he claimed had also been used clandestinely for some of the drug running which he was engaged in prior to his conviction, and that he knew the pilot of the plane - and it was not Tosh Plumlee.

Approximately 6:20

"The Jeep was a yellow type, looked like a road jeep - they used on roads for repairing them - yellowish..."

The Jeep was being driven by another man, who let off the two individuals in beige colored coveralls - one resembled Lee Oswald, and the other was taller, latin, possibly Cuban - and drove off. Vinson provided no description of the driver of the vehicle.

"Two men jumped from the jeep and ran to the airplane. The jeep backed up and out of Bob‘s sight. With the engines still running, one of the crew cameout of the cockpit to unhinge and shove open the passenger door so the two men could board the plane. They wore offwhite, beige coveralls such as those worn by repairmen who work on streets, highways or sewers. The taller of the two -- a Latino, Bob took him to be Cuban -- shut and locked the door. He stood 6 feet to 6-1 and weighed between 180 and 190. The shorter one, a Caucasian, was 5-7 to 5-9, weighing 150 to 160. The two walked past Bob without a word or a look, and took seats up front right behind the cockpit. They didn‘t say a word, to him or to each other.The plane taxied for a few yards, then turned and -- about 15 minutes after it set down -- took off headed northwest, the way it had landed. Obviously, Bob thought, they were following orders. They knew what they were doing, and didn‘t have to explain anything to him. He was just hitching a ride. Besides, they were no doubt upset by the fact that the president had been shot. So was he. It wasn‘t a time to be bothering strangers asking questions. So he kept quiet too. Around dusk, the plane landed again and taxied to the edge of a runway. But they weren‘t in Denver‘s Lowry. Bob didn‘t recognize the air base. The cockpit door opened, and the two crewman came barreling down the aisle. The two passengers followed. Without a word, or even a look at him, they rushed past him and out the door of the plane. He watched them disappear into the darkness of the seemingly deserted base. Were they coming back to go on to Denver? Why were they in such a rush? Where were they? Bob Vinson sat there a few moments trying to make sense of the strangest flight of his life."

As per Vinson, he ended up learning that the plane had landed at the secret airbase - also known as area 51.

[Jack White]

Any stories of a plane landing in the Trinity River flood plain should be discounted.

Even if possible, such a happening would have been widely noticed and reported.

A half dozen bridges would make takeoffs and landings impossible.

Jack

[Robert Howard]

Any stories of a plane landing in the Trinity River flood plain should be discounted.

Even if possible, such a happening would have been widely noticed and reported.

A half dozen bridges would make takeoffs and landings impossible.

Jack

For Lee Forman.......

Parrot Jungle Gift Shop

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=15

There is something about this story that seems sort of unusual, in that the document begins with Mrs Lillian Spingler, a clerk at the Parrot Jungle Gift Shop, asking Mr Vander-Wyden what kind of car is parked a few cars down from the flag pole where Mr Vander-Wyden has just taken down the American flag, he replies that there is a 1955 to 1957 white Chevrolet, with a light faded blue top, and a dark possibly blue bottom, and that it carried a Dade County license plate, with a #1 prefix.

Regarding the vehicle that had been seen by Robert Surrey on April 6th, he described it as a 1963 Ford four-door sedan either purple or brown, in which the license plate had been removed, he also mentioned that there had been two men that night looking the place over. Kirk Coleman, the young boy also mentioned that there had been two cars seen the night of the shooting, a 1949 or 1950 Ford and “further down the the parking lot” was another car make and model unknown, in which he had seen a person getting into the car as well. The person Coleman identified getting into the 1949 or 1950 Ford had long black hair, not exactly an identical match of Oswald. Even if Oswald had taken the shot at Walker, ballistic evidence supporting that conclusion, was shaky at best, the idea that only one person was involved is a very weak argument in light of the background to the incident....But the point of this post is in relation to the automobiles allegedly available to Duff.

When the Dallas Police Department investigated the Walker incident they interviewed, Mrs. Whitley, 4228, Oak Lawn whom Duff had been very briefly engaged to, [she discovered he had lied to her regarding his background] after contacting the British Embassy in Houston, Texas. In the report she mentioned she had last been in touch with Duff on April 6, 1963, and that when Duff had visited her he had driven the following cars, a 1957 model Brown Ford, a 1962 model Oldsmobile, a 1963 model Ford, a 1963 model Chevrolet and a 1958 model maroon T-bird. Another vehicle McDuff was cited as driving was a 1963 Volkswagen, MU 8239. She did not have Duff’s address but a phone number TA 7-1869, which, according to the report was registered to a R.B. Ruwalt at 4805 Coles Manor. There was, according to the landlady at Coles Manor, no longer a Mr. R. B. Ruwalt living there, only a woman who was reported to be a free lance model.

See

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=17

Below is a summary of Lee Bowers ID's for the three cars scoping out the TSBD

1. The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-State license with a Barry Goldwater bumper sticker the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.

2. The second car was a 1957 black Ford, with Texas plates driver was one male. He seemed to have a mike or telephone or something that gave the appearance of that

3. The third car was a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.

END

LICENSE NUMBERS, ----- -----

Sources: CD 205, pp. 112, 344, 346; CIA 53-548 (re-released as JFK 104-10015-10332, Lifton's pp. 347-349); CIA 68-554 (re-released as JFK 104-10015-10278, Lifton's pp. 212-214); CIA 72-553 (re-released as JFK 104-10015-10267, Lifton's pp. 178-180); CIA 76-29 (re-released as JFK 104-10015-10271, Lifton's pp. 187-189); CIA 1390-491-C

Mary's Comments: Texas PU 7862; Virginia 759078, 1955 green and white 1956 Chevrolet, belonged to Walter Stokes Libby, Jr.; Texas KR 57-73, 1963 Silver Grey Buick, belonged to Herminio Duarte Martins, Jr.;

Silvia Duran seen in two cars with Texas plates: JF 96-75 (convertible) and KU 94-95 (white Volvo); another Ford with Texas plates JH 24-76 seen in front of Duran's brother's residence. Texas TA 582 seen at Cuban Embassy Mexico City 21 Oct 63.

On November 23, 1963, a green Ford with California 1963 plates KVU-191 was parked near Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. HD5095 - plates on 1962 Thunderbird driven by Donnell Darius Whitter when he and Lawrence Miller were arrested at Gaston and Hall Streets on November 18, 1963.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Robert Howard

[Lee Forman]

Any stories of a plane landing in the Trinity River flood plain should be discounted.

Even if possible, such a happening would have been widely noticed and reported.

A half dozen bridges would make takeoffs and landings impossible.

Jack

Someone whom I would consider the SME made it clear - 'difficult, but not impossible.' And the description could fit in with the Airport at Route 77 - which had a long stretch of the construction underway for Route 35 - the Lou Foote airport - which was not paved at the time, but all sand. I provided this information to Robert Vinson - however, he is not well. and it was of no effect.

Robert - many thanks. I consider this thread a general dumping ground and sooner or later, something will eventually make sense. As someone I consider highly once told me - 'there are no coincidences in this business.'

- lee