Bill Miller Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 (edited) WRONG...THAT IS THE BACK OF THE THUMB.Jack OK, Jack ... if you want to dance, then let's dance. Below is a graph and I will use letters to locate two main reference points. I will reference them accordingly ........ A - the lower part of the thumb, B - lower part of the palm. The outer profile line on the two known hands and one alleged hand from the lower thumb joint all the way down to the wrist can be followed in all three images. Now with that being said, there is still the matter of the large blob (the underside of the sole of Clint Hill's shoe) that is blocking the outer half of the alleged JFK palm and wrist. I say 'blob' because in the copy prints I am seeing used in this thread ... it is little more than a blob. However, the Post print makes the overturned shoe sole rather obvious. This means that regardless of how the illusion of the sun's glare off the side of the polished shoe of Clint Hill has given the appearence of a hand, the sole of his shoe being between the alleged hand and the camera means you guys have once again misread the image or the photo is also retouched, thus making it unreliable. Those who have said they have seen the first generation prints of the Miller photo have claimed that it was clearly a foot. Those who have been using lesser quality prints have been seeing a hand ... much the same way that you (Jack) were seeing a black woman in the Bronson slide who was actually a white woman by her own admission. One would think that after you have seen how you were fooled by using poor prints on one matter ... that you'd apply that to other photos like this one. I think it was Kennedy that I heard say that 'a mistake isn't a mistake unless you refuse to correct it'. Maybe you should consider those words and apply them to your interpretations concerning the poorer quality prints that seem to end up in these threads. Bill Miller Edited July 31, 2006 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 (edited) "someone who read where Hill said he had his foot over the door panel"who read this? where? Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car. Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? ...as you moved forward ...as you moved forward ...as you moved forward Ashton Gray P.S. Could there maybe be a reading comprehension test requirement? Yea maybe YOU could take it "soupy". Hill DID move forward, from the bumper, to the trunk, to the back of the passenger compartment. Too hard for your "stained" brain to understand? Or was it just poorly processed in the fixer step? Maybe a litlte wetting agent might make it a bit clearer for you. Edited July 31, 2006 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 WRONG...THAT IS THE BACK OF THE THUMB. Jack OK, Jack ... if you want to dance, then let's dance. Below is a graph and I will use letters to locate two main reference points. I will reference them accordingly ........ A - the lower part of the thumb, B - lower part of the palm. The outer profile line on the two known hands and one alleged hand from the lower thumb joint all the way down to the wrist can be followed in all three images. Now with that being said, there is still the matter of the large blob (the underside of the sole of Clint Hill's shoe) that is blocking the outer half of the alleged JFK palm and wrist. I say 'blob' because in the copy prints I am seeing used in this thread ... it is little more than a blob. However, the Post print makes the overturned shoe sole rather obvious. This means that regardless of how the illusion of the sun's glare off the side of the polished shoe of Clint Hill has given the appearence of a hand, the sole of his shoe being between the alleged hand and the camera means you guys have once again misread the image or the photo is also retouched, thus making it unreliable. Those who have said they have seen the first generation prints of the Miller photo have claimed that it was clearly a foot. Those who have been using lesser quality prints have been seeing a hand ... much the same way that you (Jack) were seeing a black woman in the Bronson slide who was actually a white woman by her own admission. One would think that after you have seen how you were fooled by using poor prints on one matter ... that you'd apply that to other photos like this one. I think it was Kennedy that I heard say that 'a mistake isn't a mistake unless you refuse to correct it'. Maybe you should consider those words and apply them to your interpretations concerning the poorer quality prints that seem to end up in these threads. Bill Miller Bill, does the first generation print show Clint's black sock extending from his pant leg into his shoe? Can someone tell me who the person in the inner red circle is? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 'Chris Davidson' asked Bill, does the first generation print show Clint's black sock extending from his pant leg into his shoe? Can someone tell me who the person in the inner red circle is? chris ******* Jackie, her hat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 (edited) Can someone tell me who the person in the inner red circle is?chris Larger images are not always better images. B&W photos tend to have very limited color tones, thus it does make the image harder to read. Maybe the illustrations below will help ... Bill Miller Edited August 2, 2006 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Can someone tell me who the person in the inner red circle is? chris Larger images is not always better images. B&W photos tend to have very limited color tones, thus it does make the image harder to read. Maybe the illustrations below will help ... Bill Miller Bill, if you sincerely believe that's Jackie's hat, then she is crouching down on the floor directly behind the jump seat. If this is true then we have every reason to believe JFK fell on the floor. Which supports the possibility it was his foot over the side of the limo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 (edited) Bill, if you sincerely believe that's Jackie's hat, then she is crouching down on the floor directly behind the jump seat. If this is true then we have every reason to believe JFK fell on the floor. Which supports the possibility it was his foot over the side of the limo. Crouching down on the floor??? Jackie is sitting at about a 45 degree angle to the seat. (see Jackie's back in the Newman photo.) She is still in the same 45 degree position in the Miller photo. The WH garage photos show where the blood from the President's head had ran down the front of the bench seat where she had JFK's head in her lap. The jump seats were very close to Jackie's seat. (see below) There is no evidence that the President ever had any motor functions from the moment his arms dropped in Dealey Plaza to the point of arriving at Parkland. The only time that anyone's foot ever came into play was when Hill slid up to the back seat and hooked his foot over the side of the car. (see below) When Hill tuurned his knee inward ... his foot slid along the side of the car from one location to another. Hill said that he hooked his foot over the side of the limo ... so if that is JFK's foot, then where did Hill's foot go? While I supposed that anything is possible or so they say, but in this case - what you have suggested is not supported by the evidence IMO. Edited August 1, 2006 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Bill, if you sincerely believe that's Jackie's hat, then she is crouching down on the floor directly behind the jump seat. If this is true then we have every reason to believe JFK fell on the floor. Which supports the possibility it was his foot over the side of the limo. Crouching down on the floor??? Jackie is sitting at about a 45 degree angle to the seat. (see Jackie's back in the Newman photo.) She is still in the same 45 degree position in the Miller photo. The WH garage photos show where the blood from the President's head had ran down the front of the bench seat where she had JFK's head in her lap. The jump seats were very close to Jackie's seat. (see below) There is no evidence that the President ever had any motor functions from the moment his arms dropped in Dealey Plaza to the point of arriving at Parkland. The only time that anyone's foot ever came into play was when Hill slid up to the back seat and hooked his foot over the side of the car. (see below) When Hill tuurned his knee inward ... his foot slid along the side of the car from one location to another. Hill said that he hooked his foot over the side of the limo ... so if that is JFK's foot, then where did Hill's foot go? While I supposed that anything is possible or so they say, but in this case - what you have suggested is not supported by the evidence IMO. There is a lot of blood on Jackie's side of the seat. http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Limousine/blood01.jpg In Z frame 392 which sync's with Altgen's last photo of the limo, (imo) Jackie climbs back into her seat. This sequence takes about 30 frames/1.67 seconds. JFK goes from an upright position eventually falling on his left side toward Jackie, which will take up more of Jackie's side. How much room/time does Jackie have to climb back to her seat, lift up Jack's head/body and sit down? I ask this as it seems strange that Jackie eventually ends up on the floor, as Bill points out . At this point, what does she do to free herself from Jack? What position might Jack end up in? How much room does this leave Clint? Just a few thoughts in trying to figure out possible body positions, chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 (edited) JFK goes from an upright position eventually falling on his left side toward Jackie, which will take up more of Jackie's side.How much room/time does Jackie have to climb back to her seat, lift up Jack's head/body and sit down? I ask this as it seems strange that Jackie eventually ends up on the floor, as Bill points out . At this point, what does she do to free herself from Jack? What position might Jack end up in? How much room does this leave Clint? I am not sure what difficulty you are having ... photos looking down into the limo shows the amount of room the back seat had. The blood running down the front of Jackie's seat must have gotten there as the President bled all the way to Parkland. I would like to know where you got the idea that Jackie ended up on the floor? Jackie simply bent forward and craddled her husband's head and tried to hold the top of his head on just as she testified to. She remained in this position all the way to the hospital. I recall reading where she was still holding her dead husband and had to be asked to allow the SS to remove him from the limo so to get him into the ER. Bill Miller Edited August 2, 2006 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) 'Bill Miller' wrote: JFK goes from an upright position eventually falling on his left side toward Jackie, which will take up more of Jackie's side.How much room/time does Jackie have to climb back to her seat, lift up Jack's head/body and sit down? I ask this as it seems strange that Jackie eventually ends up on the floor, as Bill points out . At this point, what does she do to free herself from Jack? What position might Jack end up in? How much room does this leave Clint? I am not sure what difficulty you are having ... photos looking down into the limo shows the amount of room the back seat had. The blood running down the front of Jackie's seat must have gotten there as the President bled all the way to Parkland. I would like to know where you got the idea that Jackie ended up on the floor? jackie simply bent forward and craddled her husbands head and tried to hold his head on just as she testified to. She remained in this position all the way to the hospital. I recqall reading where she was still holding her dead husband and had to be asked to allow the SS to remove him from the limo and get him into the ER. Bill Miller **************** perhaps the questions have not been answered fully? Edited August 2, 2006 by David G. Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 'Bill Miller' wrote:JFK goes from an upright position eventually falling on his left side toward Jackie, which will take up more of Jackie's side.How much room/time does Jackie have to climb back to her seat, lift up Jack's head/body and sit down? I ask this as it seems strange that Jackie eventually ends up on the floor, as Bill points out . At this point, what does she do to free herself from Jack? What position might Jack end up in? How much room does this leave Clint? I am not sure what difficulty you are having ... photos looking down into the limo shows the amount of room the back seat had. The blood running down the front of Jackie's seat must have gotten there as the President bled all the way to Parkland. I would like to know where you got the idea that Jackie ended up on the floor? jackie simply bent forward and craddled her husbands head and tried to hold his head on just as she testified to. She remained in this position all the way to the hospital. I recqall reading where she was still holding her dead husband and had to be asked to allow the SS to remove him from the limo and get him into the ER. Bill Miller **************** perhaps the questions have not been answered fully? Bill, Sorry I misquoted you on Jackie's position. The backseat had a lot of room which means it was fairly wide, I assume. Any ideas on how Clint gets from the bumper to the back seat as I see nothing to grip and hold, with the car traveling at a high rate of speed? Where is Jack as Clint steps into the back of the limo with his left arm gripping the far left side of the vehicle? thanks chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) Any ideas on how Clint gets from the bumper to the back seat as I see nothing to grip and hold, with the car traveling at a high rate of speed? Chris, did you know that just prior to the limo getting onto Stemmons Freeway ... that the limo had slowed to a crawl as Curry's car pulled along side of it as they shouted directions on how to get to the hospital to Greer? Curry called it a "rolling stop", which means a near stop, but still moving. I am willing to bet this is when Hill made his move to get into position by placing a foot up on a hand hold and pushing himself across the trunk and over the top of the back seat. Where is Jack as Clint steps into the back of the limo with his left arm gripping the far left side of the vehicle? The Zapruder film shows JFK falling over and onto his left side, so for his head to bleed down the front of Jackie's seat - he must be angled from the back passenger side of the seat of the seat to the front middle to drivers side of the bench seat. Bill Miller Edited August 2, 2006 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 Does anyone know who took this photo? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 Does anyone know who took this photo? (Jack White) Al Volkland? James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Hello Pat. Here's a fine example for you - San Jose Mercury - 11/23. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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